PASSED: Condemn NAZI EUROPE

[The Great Lord Tiger]

So... again, what does this have to with in-character? Or are you saying that you would ask the police to arrest someone for having Nazi memorabilia in their house?

doesn't anyone know what they did...

[serious]the resolution will pass. any attempt to repeal it will fail. if it is repealed, i will resign from the WA.[/serious]

You just don't get it, do you?

I mean, seriously, you shouldn't be allowed in the RP forums at all, because you are unable to distinguish between the real world and NS.

To put it another way:

Ideological Bans

Okay, so you hate capitalism. That's nice, but you can't ban it. Just like you can't ban communism, socialism, democracy, dictatorships, conservatives, liberals, Christians, atheist, or any other political, religious, or economic ideology. While it should go without saying, this is up to the Game Moderator's discretion. You may consider the banning of slavery an oppression of your "economic ideology", we do not.

Real World Violations

George Bush, Hammas, France, The Michigan Compiled Laws (Annotated), and Smith & Wesson do not exist in the NationStates world. Don't bring them up in Proposals. This includes references to real world documents, movies, and books. This is really easy to grasp and is a "bright line" violation. A Proposal that is wonderfully written, but mentions "the Great Wall of China" will be deleted. Also, while it acceptable to use real world laws and UN resolutions as a starting point, don't plagiarize.

I'm surprised this thing even got into voting without being laughed down by the WA.

[Daynor]

Tiger:

DIRECTLY FROM RULES OF PROPOSALS: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18

[Types Of Violations:

o Ideological Bans <snip>


THIS PROPOSAL IS AGAINST THE RULES OF THE GAME!

No, it's not. A Condemnation is not an ideological ban. Condemning an ideology just means the SC collectively disapproves of that ideology, not that it bans it (in any case, it doesn't have the power to do so).

For those basing their arguments on the actions of the group known as "Nazis" in the imaginary "Real World", please note that these actions didn't occur in NationStates. The "ideology" referred to in the proposal logically has to be the ideology of the nations in the region that is being condemned. It's regrettable that the proposer has not yet posted an explanation giving particular instances of that ideology in operation in NationStates, and therefore members are having trouble understanding why it deserves condemnation. Lacking such information, ambassadors should do their own research by a quick check on the region in question or a search of member nations' publicly available statements.

BTW, if you're responding IC to events in the Chamber, don't forget that your posts should still contain some reference -- IC or in an OOC addendum, as you choose -- to the debate on the actual proposal.

_____________________________

IC: Walter Arbuthnot, prudently opening an umbrella, signals to the Gnomes to turn on the sprinklers, muttering, "The next Condemnation should go to the Building Management. You'd think they'd have the damn things on automatic."

The Proposal also dosn't mention anything about the real world, so I don't know why you think it should be deleted for that reason.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

RECOGNIZING the Nazi ideology as one of hate

There, Real World.

I didn't say deleted, just passed into voting. Because it's pointless drivel.

[Georgetpwn]

if it is pointless drivel, then why did it reach quroum and why did the mods NOT delete it?

if the mods think it's legal, it's legal!

[The Great Lord Tiger]

if it is pointless drivel, then why did it reach quroum and why did the mods NOT delete it?

if the mods think it's legal, it's legal!

Because of what's been said in this thread:

People saw "Condemn" and "Nazis" in the same sentence, ignored ICness (as you have), and voted because IRL, Nazis deserve it. THAT'S why. In NS, this region has done absolutely nothing, good or bad... really, must I repeat myself so often?

EDIT: And I will be making, or voting in support of, any repeal to this condemnation, should it get passed.

[Georgetpwn]

if the mods think it's legal, it's legal.
if the WA wants to condemn them, they vote yes.
if you disagree, then you disagree.

get over it. the will of the people will win.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

if the mods think it's legal, it's legal.
if the WA wants to condemn them, they vote yes.
if you disagree, then you disagree.

get over it. the will of the people will win.

Ha, so now you're making some sort of 'personal army/everyone is on MY side' claim?

I would care more, if they weren't mostly doing reactionary, RL impulse-driven votes as you have.

[Ardchoille]

The point is, such proof should have been in the text of the proposal. If physical evidence (OOC: links) has to be cited or if the details make the proposal simply too long, the proposal's author should have put it in his first speech to the SC when debate opened (OOC: in the first post).

I'm not saying Nazi Europe shouldn't be condemned for its ideology, if someone had written a proposal showing that said ideology was worthy of condemnation. Yours is the first attempt I've seen in this debate to do that. But it wasn't done in the body of this proposal, and therefore I think this proposal should fail.

Unfortunately, telling me the official titles of the region's officers isn't very convincing. Calling an officer "Minister for Enlightment and Propaganda" isn't a reason to condemn them. I know that in the MMORPG "Real World" all those titles have dire meanings, but this is NationStates. Similarly, the numbers you cite are just a string of digits, unless you can show me that the region involved has used those numbers to the detriment of others in NationStates.

I reiterate, I'm not personally opposed to condemning a nation for holding to a particular ideology, though I know that many other delegation voting against this proposal are doing so on just this point. But the proposal condemning that nation would have to tell me what the ideology entailed, and then show me how its appliction caused damage in NationStates.

-- Walter Arbuthnot, Prime Engineer of the Hermeneutical Order of the Shattered Fourth Wall and Ardchoillean representative in the SC.

__________________________________________________________

[MODHAT}The Great Lord Tiger, that "Yeah, you probably would" looks to me as if it's addressed to the player behind the nation, and looks to me as if it's an insult. Don't.[/MODHAT]

[The Great Lord Tiger]

snip

[MODHAT}The Great Lord Tiger, that "Yeah, you probably would" looks to me as if it's addressed to the player behind the nation, and looks to me as if it's an insult. Don't.[/MODHAT]

Considering this is the same person who kept trolling/harassing a humor RP thread because he didn't like that it wasn't realistic, harassed the people joking around about the Reppy worship thread with conservative Christian views and spouting religious prayers, and of course, his current actions, I was driven by precedent to inductively believe that such would be his reaction.

Irregardless, I will cease with this debate. He will continue to consider the Real World relevant to this resolution, and that's fine. I only hope a repeal is made as soon as this vote passes.

[Georgetpwn]

[antiflame]i will not respond to his comments, because it could be seen as flaming and/or trolling[/antiflame]

as for the resolution, it's legal and appropriate for what its job is to do.

[Wencee]

So... again, what does this have to with in-character? Or are you saying that you would ask the police to arrest someone for having Nazi memorabilia in their house?

doesn't anyone know what they did...

[serious]the resolution will pass. any attempt to repeal it will fail. if it is repealed, i will resign from the WA.[/serious]

Your views on this matter are... well proof of lack of ability of even reading comprehension. Either that OR you are basing it on something else (Doesn't anyone know what they did? Real life references don't matter here in either case)

Also the resolution is one of the worst worded I have seen in a very long time. So it does what it needs to do (what is it doing for that matter in its minimal text besides inferring nazis are bad).. I read that and heres what I get. "Nazi bad condemn now." thats about it.

And I happen to side with tiger... on this


----
Also if you did leave you might be missed less then even me lol jk-- I think. And I would support a repeal of this myself.

[The Great Lord Tiger]

[antiflame]i will not respond to his comments, because it could be seen as flaming and/or trolling[/antiflame]

Logically correct.

as for the resolution, it's legal and appropriate for what its job is to do.

Not so much. Condemnations are not for condeming real-life ideologies, beliefs, or systems -- not unless it can be proven that there is some effect in the NS world. You reasoning remains... not circular, so much as like a train headed in the wrong direction, knocking aside any sort of brakes or barriers trying to stop it. In reality, I'm not sure the reason you keep posting here, because your point remains the same -- Nazis are bad, condemn Nazis. My point remains the same, also -- Nazis haven't done anything wrong in NS. With that, the resolution is not doing what its 'job is to do', because there is no IC reasoning. You have yet to expand your debate beyond this one claim which has yet to possess a warrant, but which I removed from play anyway.

[Ardchoille]

GLT, I know, I know: it's not easy getting the IC/OOC or RW distinctions clear, and it's a battle explaining them to someone who doesn't get it, but you're not allowed to insult him-the-person, whatever you think of his in-game or on-forum actions.

I'm not (yet) dashing around strewing Warnings about this, just trying to remind people that, IC or OOC, there are limits. If anyone's having trouble, try imagining you're posting in General. What gets you in trouble there will get you in trouble here, too. If it's aimed at the person, not his arguments or his RPd character's arguments/actions, don't post it.

Re the reference to Nazis in the proposal being a RW reference: the proposal refers to Nazi Occupied Europe. The Nazism mentioned must, therefore, be the Nazism of Nazi Occupied Europe. That sort of Nazism exists in NS because Nazi Occupied Europe exists in NS. A reference to NS Nazism is not a RW reference. We don't know whether it has any resemblance to RW Nazism because the proposal author doesn't explain what Nazi Occupied Europe's Nazism is.

This C&C, as submitted, met the then-existing minimal standards so far established for C&Cs: we know what it's for (being NS Nazis), we know where the badge will go, and the delegates, by approving it to quorum, said they wanted to discuss it.

I think this shows the "How to Write a Legal C&C" thread needs additional explanation. Looks like the simplest form of proposal will probably end up with more explanation than the most complex.

[Far-Tortuga]

I think this shows the "How to Write a Legal C&C" thread needs additional explanation. Looks like the simplest form of proposal will probably end up with more explanation than the most complex.

I think it rather shows that this forum needs hard rules set down over what is and what is not sufficient for these proposals. There's been a lot of talk since the earliest votes about giving proper proof, citing examples, making any sort of argument in the proposal at all, and we've seen shit-all for it. As long as there is no basic standard for quality or content, we're going to continue seeing bottom-of-the-barrel proposals ride mob support through quorum and, ultimately, into the record.

On a completely unrelated note, I invite you all to join the Far-Tortugan delegation in the continuing war against bad things as we seek to condemn a region that has (presumably) done bad things. You'll just have to take our word for it.

[Consadia]

The nation of Consadia will not vote on this issue

[Kanterfolk]

Many apparently think that saying you are a Nazi is a "joke".
If it had been YOUR relatives who 60 years ago had been starved, shot, worked to death, gassed, or cremated, I don't think you would find it so humorous. What starts as hateful ideas and speech ends up with Auschwitz. And endorsing hate as a state policy is abhorrent, regardless of action.

A little historical note. Prior to WWII, a nation's treatment of its minorities - including mass murder - was viewed by the world as it's own "internal affairs" that should not be interfered with. A resolution was introduced into the League of Nations in 1937 or 1938 to condemn the crime of genocide, the systematic murder of a people based on their ethnicity. The resolution was blocked by Poland, of all nations, for fear of offending Germany.

After the Nazi Holocaust was exposed, the UN adopted a resolution condemning genocide as a "crime against humanity". This crime could be prosecuted EVEN if allowed by a nation's own laws - as I have said before, everything Nazi Germany did was LEGAL according to its own laws.

The UN has been ineffective in preventing genocide in places like Kosovo and Rwanda. However, at least there is now a recognized forum in the World Court where the perpetrators can be held accountable.

[Far-Tortuga]

Snip

Real-world events, don't apply to the NationStates-verse Nazis who are the ones being condemned here. And even if one of the nations within NAZI Europe did commit such acts, the resolution at vote isn't condemning them for it, its simply condemning them for being Nazis.

[Kanterfolk]

IMHO, identifying with this ideology deserves condemnation.

I think there are 2 types of people who would choose to join a region called Nazi Europe.

The first are people who really agree with Nazi ideology. Yes, they still exist, and if they had their way they would resume the policies of Hitler's Germany including genocide of anyone they consider inferior. They need to be sent a message that, even in a hypothetical game, such ideas deserve to be condemned.

The second are people who think that this is a big joke. I would recommend they all watch Schindler's List, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas, Defiance, and 5 or 6 other Holocaust movies in a row and then see if they think it's so funny.

If anyone can cite a legitimate reason other than the 2 I have given for voluntarily choosing to call a region Nazi Europe and joining it, please enlighten me.

[Far-Tortuga]

If anyone can cite a legitimate reason other than the 2 I have given for voluntarily choosing to call a region Nazi Europe and joining it, please enlighten me.

Well, here's one.

NationStates is a nation simulator. It does not share a history, a divergence point, anything with with real life. People create their nations to emulate whatever political choices they made during the creation process, and continue to make as they decide issues. Some people may decide to found nations based on what they feel to be Nazi ideologies; maybe they want to see how they'd run in the NS universe, or maybe they're just jackasses who do it for the attention. It just so happens that these nations decide to congregate in NAZI Europe, which suits me fine. Keeps them all in one place, easier to keep track of them for when they try to do illegal things like upload a swastika as a flag.

So let's say you have two broad groups of people who are running Nazi nations: those who may or may not personally hold National Socialist beliefs but run their NS construct in accordance with such beliefs, and those who present themselves as Nazis for the notoriety. The condemnation as its written runs into problems with both groups.

The first group, those running a Nazi state to see how it runs, they're being condemned for an ideology, not for their actions. There was no Holocaust as we know it in NationStates history. Hell, according to the issues, there aren't even really Jews in NationStates unless a player was to roleplay them existing. I wouldn't be surprised if some Nazi NationStates never had any minorities within their borders to begin with. Just Aryan ubermensch doing whatever Aryan urbermensch do. Marching, I guess. The point is that these nations, whether you find their ideology abhorrent or not, haven't really done anything. Yes, in the Real World's History Nazis were bad and should be combated, but in NationStates, they range from being a nuisance to not even on some nation's radar.

Ironically, right now it is the World Assembly which is acting in an oppressive manner as it blanket-condemns nations for their beliefs. Notice I didn't say actions; even if these Nazi NationStates were conducting genocide in an in-character manner, the resolution focuses solely on their ideology and ignore any actions they may be taking. This resolution is equivalent to the World Assembly condemning a NationStates region called "The Muslim World" because Muslims carried out 9/11, or condemning the historical NationState/player "IDF" (Israeli Defense Force) because the real-life IDF has some questionable tactics. And I would bet that there are enough people in the WA who would agree with that sentiment to get those resolutions through quorum and into the record.

Real life is apples, NationStates is oranges. You can't and shouldn't mix the two.

Now, in regards to the second category of Nazi NationStates, those who do it for attention. Is this really the best way to go about combating them? Do you know what a condemnation even does? It gives them an awesome badge that says to the whole world "WE ARE BAD ASS, SCREW YOU HA HA HA!" Being condemned is entirely beneficial to a troll, because it is nothing but attention. The region NAZI Europe has grown rather dramatically since this condemnation came up, and I believe its because the righteous indignation that has been directed at them as fed and galvanized trolls into joining NAZI Europe for the attention and spotlight. So good job, you've given the Nazi Trolls what they've wanted. Pat yourself on the back.

[Kanterfolk]

ok, perhaps there is a 3rd group that wonder, for intellectual masturbation, what it would be like to role-play a nazi state. I guess I overlooked that possibility. I would offer them the same advice I did group #2, the jokers. Watch 5 or 6 Holocaust movies in a row and see if this is something you really want to do.

I guess my point is that it is important enough to send a message to group #1 - the true neo-nazis - that this time around people won't just stand by and look the other way when dealing with hate. Yes, I know this may encourage the jackasses who see this as a joke. And I don't think I can change the ingrained ideology of haters and bigots. I only want to let them know that people are watching, and won't tolerate this, even in a game.

[Kanterfolk]

oh, and condemning "The Muslim World" for 9/11 is a different kettle of fish. There are certainly some - perhaps many - Muslims who agree with the approach of the 9/11 criminals, but this approach was not an official government policy of any Muslim nation. We are discussing government policy here, a policy of hate and persecution that is the hallmark of Nazism.

[Far-Tortuga]

ok, perhaps there is a 3rd group that wonder, for intellectual masturbation, what it would be like to role-play a nazi state. I guess I overlooked that possibility. I would offer them the same advice I did group #2, the jokers. Watch 5 or 6 Holocaust movies in a row and see if this is something you really want to do.

I guess my point is that it is important enough to send a message to group #1 - the true neo-nazis - that this time around people won't just stand by and look the other way when dealing with hate. Yes, I know this may encourage the jackasses who see this as a joke. And I don't think I can change the ingrained ideology of haters and bigots. I only want to let them know that people are watching, and won't tolerate this, even in a game.

But you're not telling them that they won't be tolerated. The condemnation isn't going to make life more difficult for them. If anything it'll make things easier; as I said, NAZI Europe has seen a big jump in recruitment since this whole stupid thing started. All the WA is accomplishing with this condemnation is giving the region a snazzy badge. Running a Nazi state isn't going to become illegal, even within the World Assembly. If you think real hardcore Nazis are going to be put off by this sort of arglebargle, you're really quite naive. They'll probably interpret it as a sign of fear and get off on it. We should of kept ignoring them like we've been doing for years, not getting our panties in a twist or pretending that we're accomplishing something by passing a resolution that is at best meaningless, and at worst counter productive.

[Far-Tortuga]

oh, and condemning "The Muslim World" for 9/11 is a different kettle of fish. There are certainly some - perhaps many - Muslims who agree with the approach of the 9/11 criminals, but this approach was not an official government policy of any Muslim nation. We are discussing government policy here, a policy of hate and persecution that is the hallmark of Nazism.

Description: RECOGNIZING Militant Islamic ideology as one of hate and violence,

ASSERTING that any region condoning and encouraging such beliefs is a danger to a large range of minorities and cultures,

FURTHER ASSERTING that it is our responsibility to discourage this kind of intolerance,

HOPING that an official condemnation from the World Assembly will discourage people from listening to or believing any messages of hate or intolerance from this region,

the World Assembly hereby condemns the region of MUSLIM REGION OF CHOICE.

My changes in blue. It isn't that difficult to write a condemnation that passes the standards that will be set when this one passes.

And with regards to NationStates, there are nations who run themselves in a manner consistent with militant Islam (or what they perceive as militant Islam, anyway), and are thus far game for the Security Council. We had one quite active in the roleplay forums until he got himself deleted, posting all sorts of threads about beheading prisoners in the name of Allah and what-not. I believe some did try to write a condemnation for him, but since the nation was effectively a troll it was decided that it was a waste of the SC's time.

Remember, you have to stop thinking of Real Life and NationStates as being the same thing. The Security Council is supposed to be condemning nations and regions for their actions in NationStates. Not for real-life atrocities perpetrated by those with the same ideology.

[Ardchoille]

If the Council will excuse me, I must invoke the form of -- well, let's call it charcoal -- magic that allows me, unlike my fellow Ardchoilleans, to discuss certain esoteric doctrines, such as the concept "players", in this Council. Fortunately, I am not a high officer in the Order of the Shattered Fourth Rampart for nothing.

*Walter shuts his eyes briefly and adjusts something on his lapel. When he reopens his eyes they glow and the air around him seems to shimmer slightly*

There we are then. Now, if I may address myself to the honourable ambassador from Kanterfolk:

NS players have been known to create puppet nations and join the regions of their in-game "enemies" in order to keep in touch with what said enemies are up to. That would be one reason for joining a region named Nazi Occupied Europe.

Some dedicated roleplayers make an effort to RP a nation in direct contradiction to their real-life views. To become trusted in a Nazi region without ever giving oneself away would be a major achievement for such a player.

"Because all my friends did" would be a third reason for entry. For some, the urge to belong far outweighs other less personal concepts -- but it's not necessarily the "all a big joke" motive you propose.

A fourth would be the impulse that prompts alternate history buffs to speculate "what if the Nazis had been contained in Europe, but not defeated"?

Admittedly, I see no evidence that any of these prompted the formation of, or enrolment of individuals in, Nazi Occupied Europe. I am putting them forward merely to show that the (unknown) motives of the Nazi Occupied Europe players don't necessarily constitute a reason to condemn their region.

If we are to condemn Nazi Occupied Europe for its ideology, we need proof that the form of Nazism practised in NS by that region has produced reasons in NS to condemn them.

-- Walter Arbuthnot, Engineer Primus of the Hermeneutical Order of the Shattered Fourth Rampart and Ardchoille's representative in the SC.

[Kanterfolk]

Being a "double agent" is hard to pull off and is commendable. These people do not agree with or identify with nazi ideology and don't need educating.

I am not so naive to think that hardcore neonazis will have their ideas affected one bit by anything, the least being a GAME. The main point I am making is, I think it's important to send a message to them that Nazi ideology will not be tolerated, even in a game.

It has been said (I forget the source) that all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.

Hitler, it has been reported, was asked what he thought what the world's response to the "final solution" would be. He reportedly answered, who remembers the Armenians, referring to the Ottoman genocide of the Armenians in WWI.