[DEFEATED] Repeal "Condemn The Pacific"

[DrWinner]

Glory Pacifica! Long live Pierconium! Long last Stability!

[Guy]

Hey, TPers who are saying how great your region is:

It's not.

It couped another region.

It was condemned for that.

It deserves to be condemned for that.

It's good if it's starting to accept responsibility, but it still couped that region.

And it should still be condemned for that.

[Pierconium]

Hey, TPers who are saying how great your region is:

It's not.

It couped another region.

It was condemned for that.

It deserves to be condemned for that.

It's good if it's starting to accept responsibility, but it still couped that region.

And it should still be condemned for that.

No, that is factually inaccurate. The Pacific supported the right of the Delegate in Lazarus to change its government. Stujenske made the choice to 'coup' and the Pacific supported that position. As I have stated here and elsewhere, the methods that followed and some of the subsequent actions were too far, but Stujenske was the elected Delegate of Lazarus at the time of his decision to implement the NLO.

[Guy]

Hey, TPers who are saying how great your region is:

It's not.

It couped another region.

It was condemned for that.

It deserves to be condemned for that.

It's good if it's starting to accept responsibility, but it still couped that region.

And it should still be condemned for that.

No, that is factually inaccurate. The Pacific supported the right of the Delegate in Lazarus to change its government. Stujenske made the choice to 'coup' and the Pacific supported that position. As I have stated here and elsewhere, the methods that followed and some of the subsequent actions were too far, but Stujenske was the elected Delegate of Lazarus at the time of his decision to implement the NLO.

It was a system of government designed to be entirely subservient to the NPO. You hosted it on your forums. Most of your Senate was involved. You appointed an 'NPO Governor', AMOM. Give me a break.

[Pierconium]

No, that is factually inaccurate. The Pacific supported the right of the Delegate in Lazarus to change its government. Stujenske made the choice to 'coup' and the Pacific supported that position. As I have stated here and elsewhere, the methods that followed and some of the subsequent actions were too far, but Stujenske was the elected Delegate of Lazarus at the time of his decision to implement the NLO.

It was a system of government designed to be entirely subservient to the NPO. You hosted it on your forums. Most of your Senate was involved. You appointed an 'NPO Governor', AMOM. Give me a break.

No. AMOM was not part of the Pacific at the time. This has been refuted several times and is not true. Most of the Senate was not involved, some voiced support after the fact because of the circumstances that were forced upon us.

Yes, we agreed to host the government and that was a mistake, which I have acknowledged on numerous occasions. It was an overstep that was insulting to the Lazarene community.

As to what Stujenske's chosen form of governance was, that was his choice. It isn't so much different than TRR being subservient to outside alliances that direct your political agenda abroad.

[The Commonwealth Of New States]

Why are people even still arguing over the situation? why not ask The People of The NPO how they feel about things instead of assuming we know best.

It doesn't look like the Repeal will fail because of the The Pacific but rather it is to spite Cormactopia and Pierconium.

Can people start to under stand the NPO's region population needs and wants and try not to get their own personal vendetta against its leaders involved?

[Pierconium]

Why are people even still arguing over the situation? why not ask The People of The NPO how they feel about things instead of assuming we know best.

It doesn't look like the Repeal will fail because of the The Pacific but rather it is to spite Cormactopia and Pierconium.

Can people start to under stand the NPO's region population needs and wants and try not to get their own personal vendetta against its leaders involved?

To clarify, Cormac is not a member of the leadership in the Pacific. And, I daresay that most of the votes against this have little to do with me personally. But, you are correct, the people of the Pacific can and do make their own decisions and by and large, the region is happy with the current state of our internal affairs.

[Karenus]

Pergamon: How do you feel about that massive block of regions standing against us?

Me:


[Disclaimer] Actual conversation [/Disclaimer]

[The Commonwealth Of New States]

Why are people even still arguing over the situation? why not ask The People of The NPO how they feel about things instead of assuming we know best.

It doesn't look like the Repeal will fail because of the The Pacific but rather it is to spite Cormactopia and Pierconium.

Can people start to under stand the NPO's region population needs and wants and try not to get their own personal vendetta against its leaders involved?

To clarify, Cormac is not a member of the leadership in the Pacific. And, I daresay that most of the votes against this have little to do with me personally. But, you are correct, the people of the Pacific can and do make their own decisions and by and large, the region is happy with the current state of our internal affairs.

I understand that Cormac is not part of any NPO leadership. My point was that You and Cormac are being punished out of spite by others with personal vendettas.

I honestly think you have been Condemned long enough your region is not a raider region and you have apologized for your crimes.

[Guy]

It was a system of government designed to be entirely subservient to the NPO. You hosted it on your forums. Most of your Senate was involved. You appointed an 'NPO Governor', AMOM. Give me a break.

No. AMOM was not part of the Pacific at the time. This has been refuted several times and is not true. Most of the Senate was not involved, some voiced support after the fact because of the circumstances that were forced upon us.

Yes, we agreed to host the government and that was a mistake, which I have acknowledged on numerous occasions. It was an overstep that was insulting to the Lazarene community.

As to what Stujenske's chosen form of governance was, that was his choice. It isn't so much different than TRR being subservient to outside alliances that direct your political agenda abroad.

Pretty sure that our foreign policy is what controls our membership of the FRA, not vice versa.

But clearly, a coup by Milograd, Stu, AMOM and Pergamon was not directed by NPO. Makes perfect sense.

[Pergamon]

No. AMOM was not part of the Pacific at the time. This has been refuted several times and is not true. Most of the Senate was not involved, some voiced support after the fact because of the circumstances that were forced upon us.

Yes, we agreed to host the government and that was a mistake, which I have acknowledged on numerous occasions. It was an overstep that was insulting to the Lazarene community.

As to what Stujenske's chosen form of governance was, that was his choice. It isn't so much different than TRR being subservient to outside alliances that direct your political agenda abroad.

Pretty sure that our foreign policy is what controls our membership of the FRA, not vice versa.

But clearly, a coup by Milograd, Stu, AMOM and Pergamon was not directed by NPO. Makes perfect sense.

You forgot about Feux.

[Classical Bombay]

Why are people even still arguing over the situation? why not ask The People of The NPO how they feel about things instead of assuming we know best.

It doesn't look like the Repeal will fail because of the The Pacific but rather it is to spite Cormactopia and Pierconium.

Can people start to under stand the NPO's region population needs and wants and try not to get their own personal vendetta against its leaders involved?

I agree with The Commonwealth Of New States, this looks very personality driven. Also I believe those who instigated the events are no longer part of the Pacific. No point in endlessly condemning a region continously right?

[Pierconium]

No. AMOM was not part of the Pacific at the time. This has been refuted several times and is not true. Most of the Senate was not involved, some voiced support after the fact because of the circumstances that were forced upon us.

Yes, we agreed to host the government and that was a mistake, which I have acknowledged on numerous occasions. It was an overstep that was insulting to the Lazarene community.

As to what Stujenske's chosen form of governance was, that was his choice. It isn't so much different than TRR being subservient to outside alliances that direct your political agenda abroad.

Pretty sure that our foreign policy is what controls our membership of the FRA, not vice versa.

But clearly, a coup by Milograd, Stu, AMOM and Pergamon was not directed by NPO. Makes perfect sense.

Considering that none of those nations were part of the governing apparatus of the Pacific at the time of the NLO's inception, I believe you are making my point for me.

Thanks!

[Polinasia]

A few incidents is a rather inaccurate way to describe the events that lead to The Pacific's condemnation, but rather, a major clusterfuck.

Considering the fact that major regions host an off-site government, it's also inaccurate to say that a commendation/condemnation judges the residents as a whole, but rather, the regional government or individual(s) in which the acts were perpetrated by.

But you must know that it diirectly undermines the region right?
When the current government has nothing to do with it.

[DrWinner]

Hey, TPers who are saying how great your region is:

It's not.

It couped another region.

It was condemned for that.

It deserves to be condemned for that.

It's good if it's starting to accept responsibility, but it still couped that region.

And it should still be condemned for that.

Yeah, but see, it is a great place, and it has undergone many changes since the time of the coup, as has been proven multiple times already.
In fact, the government has changed so drastically, one could even say it has a completely different look on the world at large, and would never follow the same course of action as saw this condemnation fall upon it.

On another note: Why would anyone condemn an entire region, full of multiple people who had nothing to do with the event, joined the region after the event, and have very little knowledge as to the event, in order to punish the actions of one group of persons? Why not, instead, condemn the individual nations who led this event, if what they did is so bad and actually deserving of a condemnation?

My question to everyone against is... Why do an entire people deserve punishment for actions their old leaders committed?

[The Commonwealth Of New States]

Hey, TPers who are saying how great your region is:

It's not.

It couped another region.

It was condemned for that.

It deserves to be condemned for that.

It's good if it's starting to accept responsibility, but it still couped that region.

And it should still be condemned for that.

Yeah, but see, it is a great place, and it has undergone many changes since the time of the coup, as has been proven multiple times already.
In fact, the government has changed so drastically, one could even say it has a completely different look on the world at large, and would never follow the same course of action as saw this condemnation fall upon it.

On another note: Why would anyone condemn an entire region, full of multiple people who had nothing to do with the event, joined the region after the event, and have very little knowledge as to the event, in order to punish the actions of one group of persons? Why not, instead, condemn the individual nations who led this event, if what they did is so bad and actually deserving of a condemnation?

My question to everyone against is... Why do an entire people deserve punishment for actions their old leaders committed?

Sadly it has to do with the NPO's leaders not its people but you cannot continue to blame a group of people who some are unsure of the situation in the first place, and even the leaders of the NPO have admitted to wrong doing I agree with you 100% that the people do not deserve punishment for things that they have not done or even have knowledge of...

[The Church of Satan]

Pierconium, that's a bold move, accusing TRR of opposing the repeal for such spiteful reasons. I don't know where you get your information but there's only 2 people that have the authority to speak for TRR right now, LR and myself. And TRR opposes this repeal because we genuinely believe The Pacific should remain condemned.

As for the personally driven thing, for some it is. I'm one of them, having been part of Lazarus' cabinet during the coup. More than that I experienced The Pacific's aggressive disregard of both regional sovereignty and the rights of the Lazarene people firsthand. So excuse me for believing those that oppressed me and the community I care about should be branded as the tyrants that I know them to be.

[Pierconium]

Pierconium, that's a bold move, accusing TRR of opposing the repeal for such spiteful reasons. I don't know where you get your information but there's only 2 people that have the authority to speak for TRR right now, LR and myself. And TRR opposes this repeal because we genuinely believe The Pacific should remain condemned.

As for the personally driven thing, for some it is. I'm one of them, having been part of Lazarus' cabinet during the coup. More than that I experienced The Pacific's aggressive disregard of both regional sovereignty and the rights of the Lazarene people firsthand. So excuse me for believing those that oppressed me and the community I care about should be branded as the tyrants that I know them to be.

Where did I state that TRR was voting against the resolution for 'such spiteful reasons' and what were those reasons that I noted? Thanks.

[Ryanvillle]

I understand condemnations in some cases, but why condemn an entire region? Most Pacificans have nothing to do with what they were condemned for.

[The Church of Satan]

How about the big long post one page back where you said TRR voted agains this repeal solely for a lemming affect. Not to mention calling this an attack on The Pacific. TRR has always honored it's diplomatic agreements.

[Ikania]

Hey, TPers who are saying how great your region is:

It's not.

It couped another region.

It was condemned for that.

It deserves to be condemned for that.

It's good if it's starting to accept responsibility, but it still couped that region.

And it should still be condemned for that.

No, that is factually inaccurate. The Pacific supported the right of the Delegate in Lazarus to change its government. Stujenske made the choice to 'coup' and the Pacific supported that position. As I have stated here and elsewhere, the methods that followed and some of the subsequent actions were too far, but Stujenske was the elected Delegate of Lazarus at the time of his decision to implement the NLO.

That's bullshit, and you know it very well. And even if this were true, then this position of "The incumbent delegate is always right" is also bullshit and your support of it in this situation, as well as the Pacific's puppetmastery of the whole thing, deserve condemnation.

[Pierconium]

No, that is factually inaccurate. The Pacific supported the right of the Delegate in Lazarus to change its government. Stujenske made the choice to 'coup' and the Pacific supported that position. As I have stated here and elsewhere, the methods that followed and some of the subsequent actions were too far, but Stujenske was the elected Delegate of Lazarus at the time of his decision to implement the NLO.

That's bullshit, and you know it very well. And even if this were true, then this position of "The incumbent delegate is always right" is also bullshit and your support of it in this situation, as well as the Pacific's puppetmastery of the whole thing, deserve condemnation.

Is it 'bullshit' or is it true? You don't seem to be able to clearly define which it might be.

I, on the other hand, have been consistent in my policy regarding Delegate's rights for well over a decade. I don't waver, I don't compromise. I am a constant. The sitting Delegate in a GCR, provided that they are acting of their own free will and not under coercion, is the ultimate authority within the region so far as I am concerned. Some regions have perverted this by flooding their Influence ratings making it impossible for a Delegate to act of their own volition. I personally find this abhorrent.

If that makes the Pacific 'worthy' of a Condemnation, well, you are in luck...

[Pierconium]

How about the big long post one page back where you said TRR voted agains this repeal solely for a lemming affect. Not to mention calling this an attack on The Pacific. TRR has always honored it's diplomatic agreements.

So TRR taking part in an early voting stack, which was admitted to by at least one of the regions in question, was not in any way, shape, of form designed to gather a large negative vote from the outset in order to sway the later voting? Since that is a tried and true practice within these halls for nearly every single resolution that has any inkling of controversy, I find that a bit much to believe.

And yes, I do consider it an attack on my region. It is an ideological attack. It was a coordinated effort to stack the vote against the Pacific. As the leader of my region, I am the person that decides if it shall be taken as such. And, the ongoing attacks from parties within this thread can also be considered in the same vein.

[DrWinner]

I can't help but notice that the main people opposing this bill are refusing to answer my honest questions on this matter. Just pointing that out, since I'm sure no one is that blind.

Also...

No, that is factually inaccurate. The Pacific supported the right of the Delegate in Lazarus to change its government. Stujenske made the choice to 'coup' and the Pacific supported that position. As I have stated here and elsewhere, the methods that followed and some of the subsequent actions were too far, but Stujenske was the elected Delegate of Lazarus at the time of his decision to implement the NLO.

That's bullshit, and you know it very well. And even if this were true, then this position of "The incumbent delegate is always right" is also bullshit and your support of it in this situation, as well as the Pacific's puppetmastery of the whole thing, deserve condemnation.

Pierconium, that's a bold move, accusing TRR of opposing the repeal for such spiteful reasons. I don't know where you get your information but there's only 2 people that have the authority to speak for TRR right now, LR and myself. And TRR opposes this repeal because we genuinely believe The Pacific should remain condemned.

As for the personally driven thing, for some it is. I'm one of them, having been part of Lazarus' cabinet during the coup. More than that I experienced The Pacific's aggressive disregard of both regional sovereignty and the rights of the Lazarene people firsthand. So excuse me for believing those that oppressed me and the community I care about should be branded as the tyrants that I know them to be.

I know these are different people, but let me lump the opposition together in the same way they are lumping supporters together. Since, you know, we're not all evil people who want to run around replacing every head of regional government, as they would lead us to believe.

These ideals seem rather contrasting. You know, "I'm the only authorized voice of my region." and "the incumbent government is not always right."

Also, has anyone noticed that the people of the Pacific appear to be a tad more involved in international politics than the rest? I fail to see many people from your regions leaping forward to defend you, their leader, and your point of view. Perhaps this is because they feel a tad... oppressed? And the very notions you accuse Pierconium of are in practice by you?

[Libetarian Republics]

Also, has anyone noticed that the people of the Pacific appear to be a tad more involved in international politics than the rest? I fail to see many people from your regions leaping forward to defend you, their leader, and your point of view. Perhaps this is because they feel a tad... oppressed? And the very notions you accuse Pierconium of are in practice by you?

Oh please. The most I can ever do is suppress spam. Also when a resolution involving the condemnation of an entire region, it's natural for inhabitants to speak up regarding it.

So TRR taking part in an early voting stack, which was admitted to by at least one of the regions in question, was not in any way, shape, of form designed to gather a large negative vote from the outset in order to sway the later voting? Since that is a tried and true practice within these halls for nearly every single resolution that has any inkling of controversy, I find that a bit much to believe.

Well, sure. TRR tries to vote early for the lemming effect, but that's true for most major delegates. Let's not overestimate TRR's vote because we only contribute less than ~200 votes. The Pacific can easily counter our vote if you ever feel like it.

And yes, I do consider it an attack on my region. It is an ideological attack. It was a coordinated effort to stack the vote against the Pacific. As the leader of my region, I am the person that decides if it shall be taken as such. And, the ongoing attacks from parties within this thread can also be considered in the same vein.

First, it wasn't a coordinated effort (at least, I wasn't contact about it.) TRR truly believes the Pacific should remain condemned for its involvement in the Lazarus conflict (not to mention other historical conflicts as well). We'll continue to recognize your rule over the Pacific, Ivan, as required by our NAP. That doesn't change what has happened.

As to what Stujenske's chosen form of governance was, that was his choice. It isn't so much different than TRR being subservient to outside alliances that direct your political agenda abroad.

TRR is not subservient to anyone else.