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by Oakster » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:04 pm
by Gwerncyned » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:23 pm
by Kahanistan » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:42 pm
Wallenburg wrote:"No, Ambassador, it could not. That would be an entirely unreasonable redefinition of 'violence'."
by Doxovia » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:44 pm
Wallenburg wrote:Kahanistan wrote:
"A repressive regime could easily declare accessing a prohibited website unlawful access and thus a cyberattack and an act of violence to brand dissidents terrorists. The Free Republic must thus cast its vote against any WA resolution that might put a kosher stamp on violent repression."
"No, Ambassador, it could not. That would be an entirely unreasonable redefinition of 'violence'."
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Imperial Parliamentary Select Committee on Foreign AffairsDue to my absence from the World Assembly to participate in the Parliamentary Elections and the referendum on our participation on the World Assembly, I am submitting this letter to note our position on the matter. We will offer our friends in Excidium Planetis our fullest support in this endeavour of theirs. Whilst we were, at some time in the past, concerned about more restrictive provisions that would have damaged the ability of the United Commonwealth to protect its national security, those concerns were quickly resolved. So far as no major issues are suddenly discovered that would jeopardise the national security of member nations, this government's vote will remain.His Grace, the Duke of Geneva,
by South Sacred Sauce » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:15 pm
by South Sacred Sauce » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:24 pm
Gwerncyned wrote:
However My people have a particular problem and fear for their political freedom when it comes to this point in the proposal
"Reserves the right of member nations to monitor networks for digital security threats, should national law allow them to do so"
I understand that this bill is designed to improve national network defences but this puts the security of the entire population of the assembly nations at risk of being trapped in a big brother-like state where all citizens can be monitored online due to being loosely defined as a "digital security threat."
by Excidium Planetis » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:59 pm
Kahanistan wrote:"cyberattack" as any act of unlawful access to or alteration of numerical information stored on digital devices. For the purposes of cooperation with other WA legislation, such acts are to be considered acts of violence.
"A repressive regime could easily declare accessing a prohibited website unlawful access and thus a cyberattack and an act of violence to brand dissidents terrorists. The Free Republic must thus cast its vote against any WA resolution that might put a kosher stamp on violent repression."
Oakster wrote:Taking his seat in the World Assembly chamber, Maxwell Lucien, the newly appointed World Assembly Ambassador for Oakster, nervously looks around as he shuffles the Digital Network Defense proposal in his hands. Having read it several times, and looking around at the various other Nations he can't help but think that he has no idea what he is doing or what is going on.
Many Nations seem to walk in, read the proposal, vote and walk out without showing any sign that they have even read the damn thing, let alone considered it. He glances down one more time and looks at the conflict he thinks he sees...
"Is there an issue where the proposal defines a cyberattack as an unlawful act and yet goes on to mandate that Nations establish cyberattacks as unlawful? It seems a bit redundant, and what about those Nations that don't define cyberattacks as unlawful? Would that mean that the proposal is nullified before it even gets to the mandate part?"
Trying not to sound argumentative on purpose, he continues
"And is there any point to the law, when the mandate just asserts that Nations must prosecute for the offence and yet doesn't determine a punishment? This surely just allows for Nations to enact a law that will comply with the proposal without actually administering any purposeful or meaningful punishment. This means that there is no deterrence against the act of aggression that the proposal seeks to stop making it non effective?"
He jiggles his leg and straightens his tie, as the Nations of the World Assembly consider his words.
Gwerncyned wrote:(This is my first post on the World assembly forum and so there may be errors in terms of facts and grammar but I would love to hear your feedback so that I can improve my posts as future issues arrive). THANKS
The people of the Colony of Gwerncyned have Numerous concerns with this bill. However if a few tweaks where made then this would gain my full support.
Firstly we have an issue with the requirement of nations to:
"Make a reasonable effort to secure networks against the threat of cyber attacks"
Should this not be a responsibility of the companies and organisations that run these networks? Governments at a national level stand no hope of organising a more secure network systems for their citizens as they have limited legal access to these systems and the smaller nations of the Assembly would probably not have the funds or skilled workforce to make this possible. I should know I represent a country of only 6 million people that has a weak economy valued at 185 billion Pounds a year. Also define a reasonable effort. Does this mean that I, or any other nation could attempt to improve network security for our citizens declare it a failure and then never bother with the issue again. This just seems to be a massive loophole in the whole proposal as it puts the rest of the points in the bill into doubt.
However My people have a particular problem and fear for their political freedom when it comes to this point in the proposal
"Reserves the right of member nations to monitor networks for digital security threats, should national law allow them to do so"
I understand that this bill is designed to improve national network defences but this puts the security of the entire population of the assembly nations at risk of being trapped in a big brother-like state where all citizens can be monitored online due to being loosely defined as a "digital security threat."
Therefore I reject this bill as a representative of my people as it is full of dangerous loopholes and puts pressure on the already strained economies of the smaller nation states. I will pass these above points onto my regional delegate, The Sovereign Kingdom of Westnesia who represents the communist Bloc and has control of 353 endorsements and so could swing this vote.
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Saint Odoursburg » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:43 pm
Oakster wrote:Taking his seat in the World Assembly chamber, Maxwell Lucien, the newly appointed World Assembly Ambassador for Oakster, nervously looks around as he shuffles the Digital Network Defense proposal in his hands. Having read it several times, and looking around at the various other Nations he can't help but think that he has no idea what he is doing or what is going on.
Many Nations seem to walk in, read the proposal, vote and walk out without showing any sign that they have even read the damn thing, let alone considered it. He glances down one more time and looks at the conflict he thinks he sees...
"Is there an issue where the proposal defines a cyberattack as an unlawful act and yet goes on to mandate that Nations establish cyberattacks as unlawful? It seems a bit redundant, and what about those Nations that don't define cyberattacks as unlawful? Would that mean that the proposal is nullified before it even gets to the mandate part?"
Trying not to sound argumentative on purpose, he continues
"And is there any point to the law, when the mandate just asserts that Nations must prosecute for the offence and yet doesn't determine a punishment? This surely just allows for Nations to enact a law that will comply with the proposal without actually administering any purposeful or meaningful punishment. This means that there is no deterrence against the act of aggression that the proposal seeks to stop making it non effective?"
He jiggles his leg and straightens his tie, as the Nations of the World Assembly consider his words.
by Gwerncyned » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:45 pm
by Draconae » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:14 pm
by British North African colonies » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:48 pm
by Phoemimus » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:03 pm
by AutomatedMessage » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:40 pm
by Oakster » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:26 pm
"I thank you for your careful consideration of this resolution. However, I would like to point out that this resolution defines cyberattacks as unlawful access or alteration, so there cannot be a case where nations 'don't define cyberattacks as unlawful'. For nations which do not determine any access or alteration within their nation as unlawful, cyberattacks in other nations are still illegal in those nations, so a nation would still be prohibited by this resolution from targeting those nations with cyberattacks.
"Finally, because of the vastly different judicial systems in member nations (some which may not even have a judicial system), the WA cannot specify punishments for violating its resolutions. If you have any way to resolve this problem, please say it, and we'll have a whole lot of resolutions to repeal and replace."
Sir, Having started discussions regarding the WA proposal I am leaning towards voting No. The basic premise is good but its reaching too far and has a lot of assumptions and weak assertions. Other Nations are in agreement and I will keep you updated. Regards, Max.
by Excidium Planetis » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:49 pm
Gwerncyned wrote:This suggests that nations will have a mandate to use cyber attacks on a whim and may not even be at war with the target of the cyber attack.
Perhaps this should be changed so that nations can perform cyber attacks on nations whom they are currently at war with, and those who are officially condemned by the security council,
British North African colonies wrote:"The flawed defention of cyberterroism is nessecary for the goverment to aid major corporations in our nation.How will our economy grow otherwise?" Says one of the corrupt ministers convincing John marks,the WA member to vote against this.
Oakster wrote:"I think that you have missed my point Ambassador. Your proposal is one to stop a perceived act of unlawfulness. So if a Nation doesn't determine that the act is unlawful in the first place then your proposal is moot and if you are saying that this act also creates the assertion that cyberattacks are unlawful then, in my opinion, it is nowhere near adequate and would require a large section in itself, if not an entire proposal. One line in this proposal is not enough.
I do concede that it is outside of the scope of the World Assembly to set precise punishment levels for each individual country but by definition of being a World Assembly Nation, each Nation concedes some Sovereignty to the WA. I would have thought that if a proposal is one of deterrence then it must contain a level of deterrence or it is no more than words on a piece of paper."[/i]
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Oakster » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:06 am
To: Lucien, Maxwell (WA Ambassador)
From:Wellington, Samuel (Foreign Secretary)
Sir, I am just out of the morning meeting so apologies for not replying sooner. Good work on the discussions. I know that this appointment was quick and you felt that it was too much too soon, but keep at it and you'll make a fine WA Ambassador I am sure and continue to make Oakster proud. I have spoken to our Regional Delegate and I have asked him to introduce himself to make you feel at ease. Regards, Sam.
"... their own government, legally, because Nation A has declared that unpermitted access to data is not unlawful. Citizen A, however, cannot alter data without permission in either Nation A or B, because it both nations that is illegal and thus a cyberattack.
"Do you understand? Each nation determines what constitutes unlawful within its own jurisdiction. International cyberattacks inevitably are done by an attacking nation in the target nation's jurisdiction, so the target nation is the one that determines the cyberattack. Even if my nation completely legalized hacking, we can't hack your government networks if it is illegal in your nation."
"You appear to be new to the World Assembly, so I'll be gentle: There are nearly four hundred resolutions. Roughly one hundred to two hundred are still standing and are not repeals. Exactly zero have any kind of enforcement of their provisions. That includes the prohibitions on genocide, the restrictions on nuclear warfare, the ban on chemical weapons in offense, the ban on slavery, the ban on child labor, etc.
"Why? Because it's impossible. Firstly, GA#2 prohibits the creation of a WA police force or military to enforce the resolutions. Second, fees cannot be implemented because of the economic differences between nations. Some don't even use currency. Expulsion from the WA is not possible, same with automatic Condemnation. So tell me, how could you possibly make sure that nations are punished for cyberattacks?"
by Excidium Planetis » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:56 am
Oakster wrote:"The point I am making is that the proposal doesn't seem to... It's just a bit... erm... I can't explain... I guess I am trying to say that it seems to be a bit wishy washy? It looks like its trying to outlaw the act of cyberattacks, a proposal which Oakster of course appreciates and supports, but at the same time allows for it to happen as long as the state in question deems it to be legal and can justify it. In effect nullifying the need for the proposal."
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Oakster » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:35 am
"But it doesn't allow it to happen as long as the state deems it legal. The proposal was never meant to outlaw cyberattacks within nations... your own nation can do that on its own. International law is meant for Inter...
"Surely you recognize that without international law, there is nothing stopping nations from launching waves of cyberattacks against other nations, and so there is a necessity in this resolution?"
by Chenginese » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:44 am
by Oakster » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:30 am
by Chenginese » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:35 am
Oakster wrote:Maxwell looks to the other side of the room at the Ambassador for Chenginese and with a wry smile thinks to himself - 'Now that is a new Ambassador'. He avoids eye contact as he waits for Cornelia Shultz to acknowledge the newcomer.
by Oliveland » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:45 am
by The Galactic Triumvirate » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:43 am
by Sovereign Order of St George » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:35 am
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