[DEFEATED]Liberate The Black Riders

[The LBP Union]

Because Condemnations are useful, right? Yayletsrewardthetrollslol

Regardless, TBR stole regions, destroyed them, etc. Their aggressive actions have destroyed their right to sovereignty because they have not respected the sovereignty of other regions. Hence, along with my previous thing about how this would prevent the further growth of raiding, this is all justification for this Liberation.

[Mundiferrum]

Like I said, I believe it's about balancing the books.

The Liberation function has always been a weapon against raiders, and that's what this resolution does, it's using the liberation function as a weapon against raiders.

By not using the liberation function against raiders you basically are approving of them taking people's regions without penalty. Not using the only tool the collective victimized natives of NS has against raiders.

It's a weapon against raiders in the sense that it gives the invaded or raided natives their regions back. This specific liberation only opens them up to any attacks, basically the opposite of the liberation's function. It might be "balancing the books", but again, this opens up the precedent that a liberation's function isn't strictly that of helping the natives, which pretty much destroys that whole purpose (the whole helping natives thing). Besides, it's kind of pathetic to attack raiders by liberating their regions -- we already have a condemn function, and if you really want to hit them back, destroying their raiding attacks and whatever would be more effective.

I admit that my early usage of the term "Weaponizing" was a bit of thoughtless throwing around, but I think I made my point.

Because Condemnations are useful, right? Yayletsrewardthetrollslol

Regardless, TBR stole regions, destroyed them, etc. Their aggressive actions have destroyed their right to sovereignty because they have not respected the sovereignty of other regions. Hence, along with my previous thing about how this would prevent the further growth of raiding, this is all justification for this Liberation.

And liberating a region controlled by its natives helps the situation out? Also, saying that such actions could destroy any such right basically makes the whole right a bit of a sketchy idea, but that's an argument I'm not fit to address. However, as for this preventing further growth of raiding, that's sort of a butt argument -- the natives of TBR would still exist, they'd just move to another region and use that to continue and further their whole thing.

[The Stalker]

The Liberation function to me has always been about fighting raiders. Saying it can only be used in one circumstance is like saying there is only one reason to commend someone, or only one reason to condemn someone.

The SC functions exist as they do, and there are lots of reasons to commend / condemn, and to use a liberation to fight raiders.

Saying that the a liberation isn't a tool to fight raiders would be untrue. It's fine if you wanna be supportive of The Black Riders and their raiding, but acting like there is only one narrow reason to use the liberation function to fight them is nonsense.

[Mundiferrum]

The Liberation function to me has always been about fighting raiders. Saying it can only be used in one circumstance is like saying there is only one reason to commend someone, or only one reason to condemn someone.

The SC functions exist as they do, and there are lots of reasons to commend / condemn, and to use a liberation to fight raiders.

Saying that the a liberation isn't a tool to fight raiders would be untrue. It's fine if you wanna be supportive of The Black Riders and their raiding, but acting like there is only one narrow reason to use the liberation function to fight them is nonsense.

And what I'm saying is that using a liberation like this destroys its general purpose of helping a region's natives by setting up precedent. I'm not really saying that it shouldn't be used as a weapon against raiders, although my statements earlier kind of mess that up -- I was saying this shouldn't really be used as a weapon against a region's natives.

[Syrixia]

Idk about you all, but I'm voting FOR. I'd like to see some poetic freaking justice.

[The Stalker]

And I'm saying the purpose of a liberation is to fight raiders. You can't weaponize a weapon, only decide how to use it. You wanna limit it's use to a blanket defense of all natives that's a very narrow approach and not making proper use of all the utilities available in fighting raiders.

[CreepyCut]

I've voted against this.

I don't think I need to say why.

[Valrifell]

Like I said, I believe it's about balancing the books.

The Liberation function has always been a weapon against raiders, and that's what this resolution does, it's using the liberation function as a weapon against raiders.

By not using the liberation function against raiders you basically are approving of them taking people's regions without penalty. Not using the only tool the collective victimized natives of NS has against raiders.

You are ignoring the fact that TBR WAS raided, it's native community has their region back and wants to refound it. You are basically doing what you outlined in that post.

[The Stalker]

I clearly make a distinction between raider natives and victimized natives. Go re-read them.

[Misley]

Taking the "moral high ground" on Liberations was silly when Repeal Liberate NAZI EUROPE passed, and it's silly now.

[Valrifell]

I clearly make a distinction between raider natives and victimized natives. Go re-read them.

Why the Hell is there a distinction? Did the "victim natives" turn into "raider natives" when they raided TBR and displaced the natives of said region? The Black Riders was raided by raiders now, they have that label now, because they raided. Simple.

The Black Riders was liberated by a former ally with the support of several Defender groups. Why do they not get the Right to Be a Native? What makes them so inferior to everyone else? Because they actively rode against Nativedom and raided? Well, in this case, TBR has been victimized because their region was raided before anyone knew what was actually happening.

Taking the "moral high ground" on Liberations was silly when Repeal Liberate NAZI EUROPE passed, and it's silly now.

Except that was different because they spread a RL hate ideology. What hate has TBR spread?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I believe someone requested TBR end up like Christmas -

I've shot that down several times, even from our own side. Why? The only reason Christmas exists in the state that is does is because every time someone tries to raid it, all the defender sleepers there activate to stop them from doing so. Ergo, doing the same for TBR would require an ongoing drain on resource to continually defend it every time some two-bit new raiding org went "hey, let's raid TBR!" We want to be done with it, not to have to stop it from being refounded mockingly every other week. It being open serves no benefit to the international community besides encouraging raiding out of spite and malice, the kind of anger-driven raiding that took TBR under UGR, and never ends well - not at all the calculated, professional raiding done by the orgs. Leave it be, and I'll eventually refound, write a nice little WFE, pin a history dispatch, turn off exec del, and leave it open so long as people don't completely spam the RMB too much - as I do with almost all of my refounds. It'll stand there, and empty and dead monument to what it did and how it did it, with it's condemnation at the top. I personally believe that to be much more noble and internationally beneficial than an empty dump encouraging natives to raid.

-Souls

[The Stalker]

I clearly make a distinction between raider natives and victimized natives. Go re-read them.

Why the Hell is there a distinction?

Because TBR still hold countless region's homelands. How can you expect to us to wanna see them get theirs back when they refuse to give ours back. Give me Hippiedom. Give Codger Eastern Europe, give us our homelands and I would personally fight for them to have theirs.

Till then this is ridiculous.

[United RussoAsia]

Ridiculousness.

This TBR crap has gone to the 'beating a dead horse' stage. Firmly opposed.

[Xoriet]

Why the Hell is there a distinction?

Because TBR still hold countless region's homelands. How can you expect to us to wanna see them get theirs back when they refuse to give ours back. Give me Hippiedom. Give Codger Eastern Europe, give us our homelands and I would personally fight for them to have theirs.

Till then this is ridiculous.

They did not use the Security Council to enable the taking of those regions (to my knowledge).

There are other ways of interfering which don't require using the SC as a weapon and creating a double standard that will likely have consequences in the future. Such as marking communities of those voting for as future targets.

Have you tried intercepting a refound directly?

[The LBP Union]

Like I said, I believe it's about balancing the books.

The Liberation function has always been a weapon against raiders, and that's what this resolution does, it's using the liberation function as a weapon against raiders.

By not using the liberation function against raiders you basically are approving of them taking people's regions without penalty. Not using the only tool the collective victimized natives of NS has against raiders.

It's a weapon against raiders in the sense that it gives the invaded or raided natives their regions back. This specific liberation only opens them up to any attacks, basically the opposite of the liberation's function. It might be "balancing the books", but again, this opens up the precedent that a liberation's function isn't strictly that of helping the natives, which pretty much destroys that whole purpose (the whole helping natives thing). Besides, it's kind of pathetic to attack raiders by liberating their regions -- we already have a condemn function, and if you really want to hit them back, destroying their raiding attacks and whatever would be more effective.

I admit that my early usage of the term "Weaponizing" was a bit of thoughtless throwing around, but I think I made my point.

Because Condemnations are useful, right? Yayletsrewardthetrollslol

Regardless, TBR stole regions, destroyed them, etc. Their aggressive actions have destroyed their right to sovereignty because they have not respected the sovereignty of other regions. Hence, along with my previous thing about how this would prevent the further growth of raiding, this is all justification for this Liberation.

And liberating a region controlled by its natives helps the situation out? Also, saying that such actions could destroy any such right basically makes the whole right a bit of a sketchy idea, but that's an argument I'm not fit to address. However, as for this preventing further growth of raiding, that's sort of a butt argument -- the natives of TBR would still exist, they'd just move to another region and use that to continue and further their whole thing.

It's well known already that the natives would move on to other regions like DEN, but let's think for a moment for what The Black Riders, as a region itself and not the people inside it, what it represents. If raiders control it, it will be a symbol of raiding's power and more people will be inspired to join. If it is a friendly, anti-raiding based region, less new raiders will come in.

Those who do not respect the sovereignty of others do not deserve to have their own respected. It's high time the world shows them we won't stand for their malicious actions.

[Xoriet]

That is quite idealistic - and a common misconception. But you don't seem to realize that the only way to demoralize raiders is to prevent or take away their spoils through active defending and liberating. Taking TBR through this will do nothing really. Maybe it will make TBR's victims feel proud that they captured a region, lost it to carelessness, and then tried to win it back through the Security Council since they couldn't hold it themselves.

All of those endorsements wasted in TBR could have liberated every region which was occupied since. It was a waste of resources and not an act of an actual defender. Wasting resources we could use to protect regions that are alive on a dead husk for symbolism?

You aren't going to demoralize anyone. Defenders have captured raider regions before and have held them for years or even still hold them. Defenders held DEN for nine years until it was refounded on a day they slipped up.

Raiders have long memories, and you would be surprised how long they can wait.

New raiders may not even remember the name of The Black Riders. They will be too busy enjoying the success of the actual regions which is enabled by every "defender" who wastes their time in a dead region for vindication and misguided sentiment.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

It's well known already that the natives would move on to other regions like DEN, but let's think for a moment for what The Black Riders, as a region itself and not the people inside it, what it represents. If raiders control it, it will be a symbol of raiding's power and more people will be inspired to join. If it is a friendly, anti-raiding based region, less new raiders will come in.

Those who do not respect the sovereignty of others do not deserve to have their own respected. It's high time the world shows them we won't stand for their malicious actions.

If raiders control it, it will stay dead. The Black Riders will not be rebuilt. It's members have either left or moved on. There is no intention anywhere in the community to rebuild it.

It will not be a friendly, anti-raider region. We saw how that went down the firth three delegate. As a matter of fact, that actually spawned several raiders- we've gained several new members from the former government.

EDIT: and to back up Xor, yes, if we somehow lose the region....few months or years down the road, someone tries to refound or just slips up, boom, game over.

[Deremboro]

The nations supporting the bill are strongarming the international community for their revenge fantasies against a sovereign region. These raiders from the wording of the bill seem to be headed to a stable anti-imperialist regime, and there is no need to destabilize TBR. We will be voting AGAINST.

[Dragon rider 663]

First one it has been stated multiple times that raiding is not griefing and we had no warning and here is what happened.

1 Halcones was DOE'd because of use of illegal scriptures which I have no trouble with.
2 United Geman Regions lead a huge raid to win over TBR (Which the securiy counsil was not used as a weapon)
3 UGR resigned leading controll to either Pontamine or Island of the lonely. Pontamine won.
4 Pontamine started banjecting all and was forced out of power by harmine.
5 The region was won over at this point and elections were held.. The votes were counted by A NON RAIDER and the government was won over.
6 The fact that the region was re raided by the natives was announced.
7 Sore losers were upset and are now using the SC to try and win back our earned region after we are trying to refound which might I add is biased.
Conclusion I am voting against

[The Stalker]

The security council is the best tool victimized natives have to fight against raiding . The liberation was made for just that, to give the collective a chance to fight back. Not everyone has the time or skill to defend or liberate. To suggest those are the only way to 'demoralize' them isn't true or they wouldn't be fighting this resolution like they are.

I certainly will be watching for the refound but if they get that far I doubt I or anyone is gonna get it from them. They steal native communities refounds on a regular bases. I'm also fairly convinced they have/had an auto refound script anyway.

I don't understand why a group devoted to stealing peoples homelands have any right to get the international communities support in getting theirs back.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I confess, the irony is not lost on me here.

However I dislike the running spectacle that is TBR (the recent squabbles over the region), so I'm voting against. But then again, I dislike the whole spectacle that is GP. I am however, getting remarkably tired of various people lobbying me over this.

[Dragon rider 663]

The security council is the best tool victimized natives have to fight against raiding . The liberation was made for just that, to give the collective a chance to fight back. Not everyone has the time or skill to defend or liberate. To suggest those are the only way to 'demoralize' them isn't true or they wouldn't be fighting this resolution like they are.

I certainly will be watching for the refound but if they get that far I doubt I or anyone is gonna get it from them. They steal native communities refounds on a regular bases. I'm also fairly convinced they have/had an auto refound script anyway.

I don't understand why a group devoted to stealing peoples homelands have any right to get the international communities support in getting theirs back.

Might I add that TBR was RE-raided. We were the victims we fought back

[Knot II]

I'm also fairly convinced they have/had an auto refound script anyway.

Actually, that's incorrect. If you got a couple competent guys together to spam the founding button, we'd be on a level playing field.

[The Stalker]

I'm also fairly convinced they have/had an auto refound script anyway.

Actually, that's incorrect. If you got a couple competent guys together to spam the founding button, we'd be on a level playing field.

Your not gona convince me lol. But even still most people don't have the time or the skill. No way someone is gonna grab that refound.