[PASSED] Condemn The Pacific

[Teronia]

I for one support this. Sic Semper Tyrannis!

I am appalled at your contradictions. You appear to hate tyrants but your sig says freedom is irreverent.

irrelevant - not connected with or relevant to something.

irreverent - showing a lack of respect for people or things that are generally taken seriously.

XD

Teronia is for this resolution. Because reasons.

[ChinRussNam]

I must ask the council why many of its members deem it necessary to involve the council in the internal affairs of other nations so greatly? What does it intend to accomplish with this condemnation? The resolution clearly states, "....bring an end to its domestic tyranny and foreign imperialism." The co-author of this bill, The Stalker, is described as a corporate police state with very few rights and freedoms to the citizens, yet it throws around "domestic tyranny" like a baseball. What is this display of hypocrisy for?

[Excidium Planetis]

I am appalled at your contradictions. You appear to hate tyrants but your sig says freedom is irreverent.

irrelevant - not connected with or relevant to something.

irreverent - showing a lack of respect for people or things that are generally taken seriously.

XD

Teronia is for this resolution. Because reasons.

Why did you feel the need to define irrelevant and irreverent?

Also, because you are okay with supporting resolutions based on lies?

[Excidium Planetis]

I must ask the council why many of its members deem it necessary to involve the council in the internal affairs of other nations so greatly? What does it intend to accomplish with this condemnation? The resolution clearly states, "....bring an end to its domestic tyranny and foreign imperialism." The co-author of this bill, The Stalker, is described as a corporate police state with very few rights and freedoms to the citizens, yet it throws around "domestic tyranny" like a baseball. What is this display of hypocrisy for?

This resolution does not concern itself with the internal affairs of a nation, but with the affairs of a region. It's still based on lies, though.

[Ramaeus]

supporting resolutions based on lies?

How is this proposal "based on lies"?

[Alacros]

This is incredulous. The Pacific attempts to yet again forcibly take over another region and not only doesn't expect a condemnation but considers it a propaganda leaflet based on lies? What sort of story are those nations being strong-armed to support the actions of The Pacific trying to weave here? Everyone can see their regional message board for themselves; they know The Pacific has been recruiting nations from the top down to join the WA just to oppose this. A region that desperate to oppose a condemnation it is trying to tell the interregional community is based on lies has some explaining to do.

[Excidium Planetis]

supporting resolutions based on lies?

How is this proposal "based on lies"?

I have already pointed out why earlier in this thread. It makes the false claims that The Pacific is a tyrannical police state where the natives have no control. Yet the regional message board of the Pacific clearly contradicts this. The natives support the regime, they claim they are not oppressed.

This is incredulous. The Pacific attempts to yet again forcibly take over another region and not only doesn't expect a condemnation but considers it a propaganda leaflet based on lies? What sort of story are those nations being strong-armed to support the actions of The Pacific trying to weave here? Everyone can see their regional message board for themselves; they know The Pacific has been recruiting nations from the top down to join the WA just to oppose this. A region that desperate to oppose a condemnation it is trying to tell the interregional community is based on lies has some explaining to do.

What explanation is necessary? Would you oppose a condemnation of your region if the some of the contents of that condemnation were blatant falsehoods?

[Ramaeus]

I have already pointed out why earlier in this thread. It makes the false claims that The Pacific is a tyrannical police state where the natives have no control. Yet the regional message board of the Pacific clearly contradicts this. The natives support the regime, they claim they are not oppressed.

That's a small percentage of the total population. As I illustrated above, most residents of feeders want to be left alone.

[Excidium Planetis]

I have already pointed out why earlier in this thread. It makes the false claims that The Pacific is a tyrannical police state where the natives have no control. Yet the regional message board of the Pacific clearly contradicts this. The natives support the regime, they claim they are not oppressed.

That's a small percentage of the total population. As I illustrated above, most residents of feeders want to be left alone.

That supports my claims, actually. They are left alone, they aren't oppressed. They still have control of their region. The claims of the resolution are false.

[Ramaeus]

That supports my claims, actually. They are left alone, they aren't oppressed. They still have control of their region. The claims of the resolution are false.

Hardly. If you only factor those which you can safely assume aren't puppets (WA nations), the limited number of things the Delegate can oppress are oppressed. You don't have to look further than the Pacific's Civil Code to see that. Of particular interest:

406: Use of obsessive profanity on the forums and Regional Message Board and/or bad grammar to the point of complaint.

The vast bulk of nations may or may not actively violate the limited number of freedoms they are granted, but that is irrelevant to the subject at hand. They may not care about the oppressive nature of their government. They may actually enjoy living under the NPO. But the proposal doesn't state whether they do or don't enjoy living in the Pacific; it only states that it is an oppressive police state. And one can see that from their Civil Code.

[Excidium Planetis]

That supports my claims, actually. They are left alone, they aren't oppressed. They still have control of their region. The claims of the resolution are false.

Hardly. If you only factor those which you can safely assume aren't puppets (WA nations), the limited number of things the Delegate can oppress are oppressed. You don't have to look further than the Pacific's Civil Code to see that. Of particular interest:

406: Use of obsessive profanity on the forums and Regional Message Board and/or bad grammar to the point of complaint.

The vast bulk of nations may or may not actively violate the limited number of freedoms they are granted, but that is irrelevant to the subject at hand. They may not care about the oppressive nature of their government. They may actually enjoy living under the NPO. But the proposal doesn't state whether they do or don't enjoy living in the Pacific; it only states that it is an oppressive police state. And one can see that from their Civil Code.

So I suppose my High School English teachers ran an oppressive police state for penalizing bad grammar?
How is limiting use of profanity oppressive? It seems very reasonable that The Pacific's government would want to prevent people from spouting ridiculous amounts of expletives on the RMB.

[TAO the Wanderer]

That supports my claims, actually. They are left alone, they aren't oppressed. They still have control of their region. The claims of the resolution are false.

Hardly. If you only factor those which you can safely assume aren't puppets (WA nations), the limited number of things the Delegate can oppress are oppressed. You don't have to look further than the Pacific's Civil Code to see that. Of particular interest:

406: Use of obsessive profanity on the forums and Regional Message Board and/or bad grammar to the point of complaint.

The vast bulk of nations may or may not actively violate the limited number of freedoms they are granted, but that is irrelevant to the subject at hand. They may not care about the oppressive nature of their government. They may actually enjoy living under the NPO. But the proposal doesn't state whether they do or don't enjoy living in the Pacific; it only states that it is an oppressive police state. And one can see that from their Civil Code.

TWP also has a "bad spelling and/or bad grammar" clause in its RMB etiquette rules. I am happy that it does. It would seem to me that the ones in danger in TP or TWP are the uneducated ones ... and that is not "oppression" but more like "quality control". Quite honestly, the uneducated players would be the easiest to control or oppress.

It may be TP is working to remove the mindless drones from its regional ranks. In a similar way, it has been noted that should the State of Missouri transfer ownership of the Missouri Bootheel to Arkansas, that action would raise the IQ of BOTH states by 25 points. Perhaps you should contact Krulltopia and Darkesia to work out a deal whereby your region receives all the nations of the players considered "unworthy" for The Pacific and TWP.

[Excidium Planetis]

Hardly. If you only factor those which you can safely assume aren't puppets (WA nations), the limited number of things the Delegate can oppress are oppressed. You don't have to look further than the Pacific's Civil Code to see that. Of particular interest:



The vast bulk of nations may or may not actively violate the limited number of freedoms they are granted, but that is irrelevant to the subject at hand. They may not care about the oppressive nature of their government. They may actually enjoy living under the NPO. But the proposal doesn't state whether they do or don't enjoy living in the Pacific; it only states that it is an oppressive police state. And one can see that from their Civil Code.

TWP also has a "bad spelling and/or bad grammar" clause in its RMB etiquette rules. I am happy that it does. It would seem to me that the ones in danger in TP or TWP are the uneducated ones ... and that is not "oppression" but more like "quality control". Quite honestly, the uneducated players would be the easiest to control or oppress.

It may be TP is working to remove the mindless drones from its regional ranks. In a similar way, it has been noted that should the State of Missouri transfer ownership of the Missouri Bootheel to Arkansas, that action would raise the IQ of BOTH states by 25 points. Perhaps you should contact Krulltopia and Darkesia to work out a deal whereby your region receives all the nations of the players considered "unworthy" for The Pacific and TWP.

Lol.

That fact that The West Pacific also has that clause is a good piece of info. Perhaps we should Draft up a Condemnation of The West Pacific for being an oppressive police state?

[Ramaeus]

So I suppose my High School English teachers ran an oppressive police state for penalizing bad grammar?
How is limiting use of profanity oppressive? It seems very reasonable that The Pacific's government would want to prevent people from spouting ridiculous amounts of expletives on the RMB.

My point seems to have gone past you.

A GCR isn't a classroom. NationStates isn't a classroom. This is a game. Penalizing someone for poor grammar is excessive, considering that the RMB is open to most everyone.

I can see that you didn't read the Civil Code in its entirety, or else you would have noticed several severe infractions, like this one:

203: Giving your endorsement to a nation with whom you are not familiar personally. (All nations in The Pacific are familiar with the nations that govern them, and may share endorsements in a very limited way with one another.)

I would estimate that there are roughly 400-450 WA nations within TP. 3 can accrue more than 10 endorsements. It isn't difficult to gain more than 10 endorsements in a GCR. For reference, the second lowest endorsement cap within the GCRs is 70; 60 above TP's cap.

TWP also has a "bad spelling and/or bad grammar" clause in its RMB etiquette rules. I am happy that it does. It would seem to me that the ones in danger in TP or TWP are the uneducated ones ... and that is not "oppression" but more like "quality control". Quite honestly, the uneducated players would be the easiest to control or oppress.

...you don't have to look further than 1 Infinite Loop and Hobbesistan to see how erroneous that assumption is. Regardless, there are a variety of reasons as to why someone may write poorly, the least of which being that English may not be their first language.

[Excidium Planetis]

So I suppose my High School English teachers ran an oppressive police state for penalizing bad grammar?
How is limiting use of profanity oppressive? It seems very reasonable that The Pacific's government would want to prevent people from spouting ridiculous amounts of expletives on the RMB.

My point seems to have gone past you.

A GCR isn't a classroom. NationStates isn't a classroom. This is a game. Penalizing someone for poor grammar is excessive, considering that the RMB is open to most everyone.

I can see that you didn't read the Civil Code in its entirety, or else you would have noticed several severe infractions, like this one:

203: Giving your endorsement to a nation with whom you are not familiar personally. (All nations in The Pacific are familiar with the nations that govern them, and may share endorsements in a very limited way with one another.)

I would estimate that there are roughly 400-450 WA nations within TP. 3 can accrue more than 10 endorsements. It isn't difficult to gain more than 10 endorsements in a GCR. For reference, the second lowest endorsement cap within the GCRs is 70; 60 above TP's cap.

TWP also has a "bad spelling and/or bad grammar" clause in its RMB etiquette rules. I am happy that it does. It would seem to me that the ones in danger in TP or TWP are the uneducated ones ... and that is not "oppression" but more like "quality control". Quite honestly, the uneducated players would be the easiest to control or oppress.

...you don't have to look further than 1 Infinite Loop and Hobbesistan to see how erroneous that assumption is. Regardless, there are a variety of reasons as to why someone may write poorly, the least of which being that English may not be their first language.

You can't endorse anyone unless you are a WA member. If you are a WA member, you are most likely at least somewhat aware of the WA, and have possibly seen the repeal of Krulltopia's commendation, the Condemnation of Stujenske, and the general discussion of the NPO. Therefore, if you choose to stay in a region which is clearly an enemy in the eyes of the world, you are doing that by choice. You can leave if you feel oppressed.

Not to mention the endorsement cap is not an automatic banjection if you get 11 endorsements. I have seen a nation on the RMB that had gone over the endorsement limit and was asking nations to unendorse to go back below the cap. The endorsement limit is intended by The Pacific's government to be a safety measure against raids, not a tool of oppression, and if you don't like it, you can leave.

[TAO the Wanderer]

TWP also has a "bad spelling and/or bad grammar" clause in its RMB etiquette rules. I am happy that it does. It would seem to me that the ones in danger in TP or TWP are the uneducated ones ... and that is not "oppression" but more like "quality control". Quite honestly, the uneducated players would be the easiest to control or oppress.

...you don't have to look further than 1 Infinite Loop and Hobbesistan to see how erroneous that assumption is. Regardless, there are a variety of reasons as to why someone may write poorly, the least of which being that English may not be their first language.

You must know something about Loop and Hobbesistan that we do not. Are you saying they employ poor spelling and grammar? Loop can be given a pass, if that is true; being made of Candy, the excessive number of complex sugars in his brain and any resultant hyperactivity could be cause for errors in writing.

Or are you claiming that Loop and Hobbes oppress better educated players? Maybe the one making erroneous assumptions is much closer to your side of the keyboard connection.

ELL (English Language Learners), if known to be, are typically assisted in improving their English skills by older region players in all of the GCRs I have been a part over the past 11 years ... and I have been in EVERY GCR. So I find disagreement for your position.

[Ramaeus]

-snip-

I see that you aren't familiar with the lemming effect, which is where nations will vote for whichever option (either For or Against) has the lead. It is a documented effect. Most either follow their Delegate's vote or the vote of the majority of the international community. For reference:

Amongst The East Pacific residents, voting is currently 155-14 (91% For).

Ramaeus: FOR

I am well aware how endorsement caps work and how difficult they are to enforce. As you can see, I happen to be a GCR Delegate.

You seem to have ignored my point about the endorsement caps of the rest of the feeders in favor of pointing towards the beneficence of the community. That sort of beneficence happens quite frequently when endorsement cap violators post on the RMB. You make it seem like this is a regular occurrence within TP. In TEP (our endorsement cap is 80), this is a fairly rare one.

You must know something about Loop and Hobbesistan that we do not. Are you saying they employ poor spelling and grammar?

Yes.

[Excidium Planetis]

-snip-

I see that you aren't familiar with the lemming effect, which is where nations will vote for whichever option (either For or Against) has the lead. It is a documented effect. Most either follow their Delegate's vote or the vote of the majority of the international community. For reference:

Amongst The East Pacific residents, voting is currently 155-14 (91% For).

Ramaeus: FOR

I am well aware how endorsement caps work and how difficult they are to enforce. As you can see, I happen to be a GCR Delegate.

You seem to have ignored my point about the endorsement caps of the rest of the feeders in favor of pointing towards the beneficence of the community. That sort of beneficence happens quite frequently when endorsement cap violators post on the RMB. You make it seem like this is a regular occurrence within TP. In TEP (our endorsement cap is 80), this is a fairly rare one.

You must know something about Loop and Hobbesistan that we do not. Are you saying they employ poor spelling and grammar?

Yes.

Oh, I am quite aware of the lemming effect. But that doesn't mean the WA members aren't aware of what the WA proposal says, only that they voted FOR or AGAINST for no reason other than that everyone else was voting that way. A player can know they are voting to repeal Krull's Commendation because he is evil, without actually knowing anything else about what's going on.

I don't see what you are saying about endorsement caps... are you saying TP is oppressive simply because they have a lower endorsement cap than everyone else?

[TAO the Wanderer]

You must know something about Loop and Hobbesistan that we do not. Are you saying they employ poor spelling and grammar?

Yes.

That explains why neither player is significant in TP or TWP. Although such "errors" can also be for effect ... or subterfuge. Or the by-product of being too hurried. Whatever ... a region's desire for competent grammar and spelling is no justification for nit-picking. And be glad Krull is in power rather than Pierconium. Talk about eeebil!

[California Prime]

This is incredulous. The Pacific attempts to yet again forcibly take over another region and not only doesn't expect a condemnation but considers it a propaganda leaflet based on lies? What sort of story are those nations being strong-armed to support the actions of The Pacific trying to weave here? Everyone can see their regional message board for themselves; they know The Pacific has been recruiting nations from the top down to join the WA just to oppose this. A region that desperate to oppose a condemnation it is trying to tell the interregional community is based on lies has some explaining to do.

Nope. Wrong on nearly all counts.
1--Whatever your position is on what happened with Lazarus, half of the language of this resolution justifies a condemnation based on the internal workings of the region as perceived by a bunch of outsiders who have no clue. Tyrannical leadership? Oppressing native Pacificans? Mass Eject/Bans? These accusations are absolutely false on all counts as several of us have shown on this thread.
2--There is no "recruitment effort" to get more WA nations to oppose the resolution, we don't think that we are gonna find 10,000 new nations to join us. We are more amused at how a group of nations who have personal beefs with our region have managed to lie and manipulate thousands of nations into a meaningless act of misguided overreaction.
3--"desperate to oppose the condemnation"....yeah, that's why on our regional message baord we have been joking about how silly the WA security council has become for the last week and gossiping about the recent events with the Black Riders for the last day. That just reeks of desperation I guess.

[Pierconium]

This is incredulous. The Pacific attempts to yet again forcibly take over another region and not only doesn't expect a condemnation but considers it a propaganda leaflet based on lies? What sort of story are those nations being strong-armed to support the actions of The Pacific trying to weave here? Everyone can see their regional message board for themselves; they know The Pacific has been recruiting nations from the top down to join the WA just to oppose this. A region that desperate to oppose a condemnation it is trying to tell the interregional community is based on lies has some explaining to do.

Nope. Wrong on nearly all counts.
1--Whatever your position is on what happened with Lazarus, half of the language of this resolution justifies a condemnation based on the internal workings of the region as perceived by a bunch of outsiders who have no clue. Tyrannical leadership? Oppressing native Pacificans? Mass Eject/Bans? These accusations are absolutely false on all counts as several of us have shown on this thread.
2--There is no "recruitment effort" to get more WA nations to oppose the resolution, we don't think that we are gonna find 10,000 new nations to join us. We are more amused at how a group of nations who have personal beefs with our region have managed to lie and manipulate thousands of nations into a meaningless act of misguided overreaction.
3--"desperate to oppose the condemnation"....yeah, that's why on our regional message baord we have been joking about how silly the WA security council has become for the last week and gossiping about the recent events with the Black Riders for the last day. That just reeks of desperation I guess.

This is correct.

Further, I was one of the first nations to vote in favor of this resolution and the Emperor has expressed support on the NPO governmental boards and also voted in favor. The Pacific is not actively opposing this resolution. We intend to wear it as a badge of pride and a symbol of how pointless exercises such as these are truly.

[Alacros]

Tautology is not proof. One cannot simply say something is false and then when asked why it's false say because it is and then jump up and say "Aha! We've proven it haven't we?"

[Pierconium]

Tautology is not proof. One cannot simply say something is false and then when asked why it's false say because it is and then jump up and say "Aha! We've proven it haven't we?"

You are correct. Are you admitting to the utilization of this tactic or did you have another point?

[Excidium Planetis]

Tautology is not proof. One cannot simply say something is false and then when asked why it's false say because it is and then jump up and say "Aha! We've proven it haven't we?"

It works the other way too. You can't simply say "It's true that The Pacific is oppressive!" and when asked how say "Because it is!".

I don't think you've ever seen the The Pacific have you? It's quite nice there actually, lots of lighthearted, patriotic region members.

Who say stuff like this:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=display_region_rmb/region=the_pacific?postid=11302699#p11302699

I am looking forward to the Condemnation. I think Francos Spain would be proud of this region's resolve to keep the Revolution alive.

[Hobbesistan]

Or are you claiming that Loop and Hobbes oppress better educated players?

We employ a children-of-the-corn method of sending the better educated children to work the fields.


I know my nack for bad spelling came when I was in the car accident a year or so ago (it was kind of a thing but not really major before then) and was drugged on IRC for like a week, and I just rolled with being the 'guy who can't spell' ever since. I guess I qualify for ejection by quality control.