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by Vogelda » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:26 pm
by Sagittariidae » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:30 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Jersey Republic wrote:"Do you not get how close to nuclear war we will get if this passes. I am opposing this, nukes should be strictly controlled. Not loose."
I, after taking a course on international affairs at university1, have always held the position that nuclear weapons are one of the greatest tools for peace ever developed. They have made the costs to war so high and so immediate that any attack is unimaginable because it would summon back to the fore the ghost of total annihilation. All nations with nuclear weapons will never give them up, because they are integral to the security dilemma. All nations without nuclear weapons want them, because after getting them, they will never be existentially threatened again.
By imposing such immense costs to conflict, multi-state war between any nuclear powers has become effectively impossible, allowing us to have the world we have today, one of greater peace and safety than ever before; the spectre of millions dying in the fields of France or the islands of the Pacific has now permanently disappeared.
by Thermodolia » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:52 pm
by Thermodolia » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:13 pm
Vogelda wrote:Raising xyr voice above the hubbub, Mx Tulann says with great passion in xyr voice, "Vogelda is staunchly opposed to war and weaponry in all their forms, but particularly towards nuclear weapons and their use in warfare. In addition, we cannot in good faith support energy production by nuclear fusion; its effects on the environment are too costly for what is created. While we believe it is idealistic to hope for a ban on the use of nuclear weapons and energy, any motion that moves us closer to that lofty goal is one to be praised. As such, the Vogeldan Deliberation Assembly has voted unanimously to vote AGAINST this repeal."
by Excidium Planetis » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:57 pm
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:If we're speaking about the 'transfer of specifications', this is not the same as the 'right of member nations to research or use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes' or 'the right to possess or produce nuclear armaments via their own technological and manufacturing capacities'.
No but your argument clearly states "4. Prohibitions on the transfer of specifications of any kind, thereby increasing the risk and danger of nuclear accidents and radiation contamination." It wouldn't really matter if those specifications could be transferred of not, because The Nuclear Testing Protocol requires nations to classify their nuclear weapons specifications and test data as state secrets, and are forbidden from sharing that data any way. Do some damn research before making disingenuous statements next time?
7. Further demands that member nations classify all information and materials related to nuclear testing as state secrets and prevent this information or material with anyone not authorized to have access to this information,
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by The Eternal Kawaii » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:38 pm
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:48 pm
John Turner wrote:
So now you are using Knoostoss's interpretation instead of you own lame argument "The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, meeting this 4th March 2015 under the chairmanship of HRH, Clark Webley, Duke of Kent, has concluded that clause 4, which 'Clarifies that nothing in this resolution shall be interpreted as affecting the right of member nations to research or use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, nor denying members nations the right to possess or produce nuclear armaments via their own technological and manufacturing capacities' only prevents interpretations stating that the rights stated are prohibited by this Convention in particular"? Do you really have that little faith in your own privy-council ruling? https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=379476 Also a submarine is not a weapon any more than a gun holster is a weapon. A submarine, or a warship are "delivery systems". Please for the love of god do some damn research and stop with the bullshit lies.
John Turner wrote:
There is a difference between a steam explosion and an actual nuclear detonation. You cannot detonate a reactor, as you cannot compress the core enough to cause a "nuclear" detonation. Plus, most reasonable nations don't go to the trouble of loading a fully functioning nuclear reactor with it's entire steam cooling system aboard an aircraft just to drop it on a target. Please use sanity here for a change and admit this is a bullshit argument? I suppose one could intentionally sabotage their own reactor in a "scorched earth" policy, but then again it wouldn't really be used as a weapon would it, and that would likely be covered by Radiological Terrorism", which you also oppose. Best of luck trying to use that argument when you try to repeal that resolution.
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:If we're speaking about the 'transfer of specifications', this is not the same as the 'right of member nations to research or use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes' or 'the right to possess or produce nuclear armaments via their own technological and manufacturing capacities'.
No, but your argument clearly states "4. Prohibitions on the transfer of specifications of any kind, thereby increasing the risk and danger of nuclear accidents and radiation contamination." It wouldn't really matter if those specifications could be transferred of not, because The Nuclear Testing Protocol requires nations to classify their nuclear weapons specifications and test data as state secrets, and are forbidden from sharing that data any way. Do some damn research before making disingenuous statements next time?
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:Argument 1 in the telegram was made in 1(b). Argument 2 was made in 1(a). Argument 3 was made 1(c). Argument 4 was made in 1(d). This claim that if they do not exist in the actual repeal is false. The claim that it would have been yanked as an honest mistake is therefore false.
And I filed a GHR yesterday to appeal the legality of this repeal as such.
by John Turner » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:12 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:John Turner wrote:No... It happened before the U.S and the U.K ratified the Non-Proliferation Treaty. Do some research if you are such a scholar.
(1) The UK still purchases the Trident missile system from the US (though it makes the bombs themselves) and (2) the meaning of the point is that there exists a world where the technology of nuclear weapons was sold and transferred. The thing I am speaking of which happened was the transfer. This also fails entirely to address the point that non-member states outnumber member states, allowing them to have nuclear weapons without any kind of oversight, but not member states.
Imperium Anglorum wrote:John Turner wrote:There is a difference between a steam explosion and an actual nuclear detonation. You cannot detonate a reactor, as you cannot compress the core enough to cause a "nuclear" detonation. Plus, most reasonable nations don't go to the trouble of loading a fully functioning nuclear reactor with it's entire steam cooling system aboard an aircraft just to drop it on a target. Please use sanity here for a change and admit this is a bullshit argument? I suppose one could intentionally sabotage their own reactor in a "scorched earth" policy, but then again it wouldn't really be used as a weapon would it, and that would likely be covered by Radiological Terrorism", which you also oppose. Best of luck trying to use that argument when you try to repeal that resolution.
Weaponise: 'adapt for use as a weapon'. A nuclear reactor can be weaponised. A nuclear reactor can be detonated (in response to your original claim). Thus, your claim that my argument is false is untrue.
The Eternal Kawaii wrote:In the Name of the Eternal Kawaii, may the Cute One be praised
While our nation is has forsworn nuclear weapons and looks upon the nuclear industry with suspicion, we recognize the resolution in question here is deeply flawed. It is a damper on those nations who are making good-faith efforts to harness nuclear power peacefully, and presents few international security or environmental protection reasons to justify it. Therefore we rise in support of its repeal.
Clarifies that nothing in this resolution shall be interpreted as affecting the right of member nations to research or use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, nor denying members nations the right to possess or produce nuclear armaments via their own technological and manufacturing capacities.
John Turner wrote:Oh.... And it wasn't drafted on the forums. That makes it automatically illegal, doesn't it?
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:17 pm
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:(1) The UK still purchases the Trident missile system from the US (though it makes the bombs themselves) and (2) the meaning of the point is that there exists a world where the technology of nuclear weapons was sold and transferred. The thing I am speaking of which happened was the transfer. This also fails entirely to address the point that non-member states outnumber member states, allowing them to have nuclear weapons without any kind of oversight, but not member states.
You are conflating the Non-Proliferation Treaty with the Missile Technology Regime. Like I said maybe do some research before being so quick on the draw.
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:Weaponise: 'adapt for use as a weapon'. A nuclear reactor can be weaponised. A nuclear reactor can be detonated (in response to your original claim). Thus, your claim that my argument is false is untrue.
There is so much fail in that statement it was painful to read. Do you ever do any sort of research, or do you just make this stuff up, because it is very difficult to tell.
John Turner wrote:The Eternal Kawaii wrote:While our nation is has forsworn nuclear weapons and looks upon the nuclear industry with suspicion, we recognize the resolution in question here is deeply flawed. It is a damper on those nations who are making good-faith efforts to harness nuclear power peacefully, and presents few international security or environmental protection reasons to justify it. Therefore we rise in support of its repeal.Did you bother to read the resolution in question? If you had you would have noticed right at the end:Clarifies that nothing in this resolution shall be interpreted as affecting the right of member nations to research or use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, nor denying members nations the right to possess or produce nuclear armaments via their own technological and manufacturing capacities.
by John Turner » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:30 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:John Turner wrote:You are conflating the Non-Proliferation Treaty with the Missile Technology Regime. Like I said maybe do some research before being so quick on the draw.
I spoke of the fact that the transfer had happened and the fact that pointing out that the NPT would, in your opinion, have prevented that transfer, even if that were true, would not matter because it does not address the crux of the argument in that non-member states outnumber member states, allowing them to have nuclear weapons without any kind of oversight, but not member states.
Imperium Anglorum wrote:
The article you cited speaks of a 'full-on nuclear explosion is completely impossible'. However, I am speaking of a detonation of a nuclear reactor due to the steam explosion spoken of earlier. Thus, this piece of offence simply is irrelevant and doesn't address the argument. Your post on how 'you cannot detonate a reactor, as you cannot compress the core enough to cause a "nuclear" detonation' is not true, since you can detonate a reactor by other means. Thus, your claim that my argument is false is untrue.
John Turner wrote:Oh.... And it wasn't drafted on the forums. That makes it automatically illegal, doesn't it?
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:03 pm
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:I spoke of the fact that the transfer had happened and the fact that pointing out that the NPT would, in your opinion, have prevented that transfer, even if that were true, would not matter because it does not address the crux of the argument in that non-member states outnumber member states, allowing them to have nuclear weapons without any kind of oversight, but not member states.
This is getting tiresome. You know what, why not just repeal everything then? WA law has no effect on non-WA nations, so why should WA nations tie themselves down with any regulations whatsoever? There is no oversight. It is simple, you can't sell nukes to nations that haven't developed them indigenously. As I said earlier, I can create a nation in two seconds and claim it is sitting on an arsenal of 50000 warheads. Does this resolution stop me from doing that? It is an IC resolution, that you are repealing on OCC arguments. Why don't you just state the real reason? The fact that I tried to use this resolution as an argument to try and repeal NAPA? Why all the cloak and shadows? The truth shall set you free.
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:The article you cited speaks of a 'full-on nuclear explosion is completely impossible'. However, I am speaking of a detonation of a nuclear reactor due to the steam explosion spoken of earlier. Thus, this piece of offence simply is irrelevant and doesn't address the argument. Your post on how 'you cannot detonate a reactor, as you cannot compress the core enough to cause a "nuclear" detonation' is not true, since you can detonate a reactor by other means. Thus, your claim that my argument is false is untrue.
Please shut up and read for once. "Supersonic explosions created by high explosives are known as detonations and travel via supersonic shock waves." A steam explosion is not supersonic, and is nowhere even close to a high explosive and therefore is not a "detonation". Yes a reactor's cooling system can "explode". No one is refuting that claim. The core itself does not "detonate" though, and does not create a "nuclear" detonation like you seem to think it would.
by Excidium Planetis » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:26 pm
John Turner wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:I spoke of the fact that the transfer had happened and the fact that pointing out that the NPT would, in your opinion, have prevented that transfer, even if that were true, would not matter because it does not address the crux of the argument in that non-member states outnumber member states, allowing them to have nuclear weapons without any kind of oversight, but not member states.
This is getting tiresome. You know what, why not just repeal everything then? WA law has no effect on non-WA nations, so why should WA nations tie themselves down with any regulations whatsoever?
There is no oversight. It is simple, you can't sell nukes to nations that haven't developed them indigenously.
As I said earlier, I can create a nation in two seconds and claim it is sitting on an arsenal of 50000 warheads. Does this resolution stop me from doing that? It is an IC resolution, that you are repealing on OCC arguments.
Why don't you just state the real reason? The fact that I tried to use this resolution as an argument to try and repeal NAPA? Why all the cloak and shadows? The truth shall set you free.
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Separatist Peoples » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:34 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:You went to school in NY? I would have thought you went to Oxford, Cambridge, or some similarly snooty British institution.
OOC: This was an article I found when I was researching some time back. I thought it was a good source for explaining the concept of nuclear deterrence and how that deterrence actually imposes costs to such a level that peace emerges.
by Imperium Anglorum » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:44 am
Separatist Peoples wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: This was an article I found when I was researching some time back. I thought it was a good source for explaining the concept of nuclear deterrence and how that deterrence actually imposes costs to such a level that peace emerges.
OOC: I'm glad I misunderstood, then. It came off as something else entirely. My apologies.
by Araraukar » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:43 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Yes considering that WA members are outnumbered by non-members, who I might add can do whatever the hell the please.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:24 pm
Araraukar wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Yes considering that WA members are outnumbered by non-members, who I might add can do whatever the hell the please.
OOC: Yes, like ignoring the existence of nuclear weapons in their own universe entirely. And it's not like no WA state ever RPs against WA laws - isn't that why the whole commend/condemn thing exists?
by Frustrated Franciscans » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:23 pm
by Imperium Anglorum » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:04 pm
Repeal "Nuclear Security Convention" was passed 10,269 votes to 3,764.
by Wallenburg » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:50 pm
by The Silver Sentinel » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:21 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Repeal "Nuclear Security Convention" was passed 10,269 votes to 3,764.
by Imperium Anglorum » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:35 am
The Silver Sentinel wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:Repeal "Nuclear Security Convention" was passed 10,269 votes to 3,764.
Congratulations on another useless repeal, passed by fear mongering and corruption so you can try and pass similar legislation. You certainly are a credit to politicians everywhere.
On a side note a new franchise called "Nukes for Less" has just opened up right outside WA Headquarters. Latest reports indicate that there is a very large lineup going on for blocks as now civilians can own their very own thermonuclear weapons, free from government regulation. As a special bonus they are throwing in free BMW's with purchase so you too can drive your beemer with a nuke in the trunk into a crowded plaza and set it off. Hurry while supplies last.
by The Silver Sentinel » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:59 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:The Silver Sentinel wrote:Congratulations on another useless repeal, passed by fear mongering and corruption so you can try and pass similar legislation. You certainly are a credit to politicians everywhere.
On a side note a new franchise called "Nukes for Less" has just opened up right outside WA Headquarters. Latest reports indicate that there is a very large lineup going on for blocks as now civilians can own their very own thermonuclear weapons, free from government regulation. As a special bonus they are throwing in free BMW's with purchase so you too can drive your beemer with a nuke in the trunk into a crowded plaza and set it off. Hurry while supplies last.
Or not, per 10 GA § 3, 'REQUIRES that any nation choosing to possess nuclear weapons take every available precaution to ensure that their weapons do not fall into the wrong hands'.
by Imperium Anglorum » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:22 am
The Silver Sentinel wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:Or not, per 10 GA § 3, 'REQUIRES that any nation choosing to possess nuclear weapons take every available precaution to ensure that their weapons do not fall into the wrong hands'.
Good thing those "wrong hands" are defined. I guess in your bender of repeals and glory you seemed to have forgotten "the law does what the law says"?
by The Silver Sentinel » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:10 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:The Silver Sentinel wrote:Good thing those "wrong hands" are defined. I guess in your bender of repeals and glory you seemed to have forgotten "the law does what the law says"?
Yes. Good thing these 'wrong hands' are defined.
the wording I used allows nations to make their own determinations as to who has access and who doesn't.
by Imperium Anglorum » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:48 am
The Silver Sentinel wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:Yes. Good thing these 'wrong hands' are defined.
I am dying to see you actually use one single original argument of your own to support the nearly infinitesimal strawman you have created. But just for the sport of it, let's analyse that.
I would like to submit into evidence Bob Flibbles argument for the defintion of "wrong hands":the wording I used allows nations to make their own determinations as to who has access and who doesn't.
That right there is the crux of Bob Flibble's argument. "allows nations to make their own determinations as to who has access and who doesn't". Now usually reasonable nation theory would apply, but seeing as how this repeal has managed to flush that down the toilet and given your history of gross misinterpretation of the English language, one can only assume that "Nukes for Less" is being operated by a WA nation that is using the determination that the "right hands" are simply the persons that hold clear title deed to those weapons. Since there is now a lack of regulation on the transfer of that title deed it seems pretty clear that WA jurisprudence would now permit civilians to own nuclear weapons, and seeing as how WA law only applies to nations and not individuals themselves, the Nuclear Arms Protocol would not apply, thus allowing civilians to use those nuclear weapons as they see fit.
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