[DEFEATED] Convention on Fracking

[Chester Pearson]

What does the makeup of 90% of the fracking fluid have to do with the issue? Does that somehow negate the hundreds of chemicals that are "proprietary" that makes up part of the other 10%? Does it mean that natural gas and fracking fluids aren't at risk of contaminating ground water deposits? Does that negate the tens of thousands of people who may be sick or whose wells or house tap water is now unsafe for use?

You pulled a random, completely unrelated factoid from the internet, accused the WA of lacking a technical understanding of the issue while yourself displaying no rebuttal to the points within the resolution, and expect to be taken seriously?

Hydraulic Fracturing fluid is 90% water and sand. It is never going to contaminate ground water, as it is being done at depths far below local water tables.

OOC: As for my random factoid? I spent 25 years in the oil patch, dealing mostly with well stimulation, 70% of which was hydraulic fracturing. As I said, the author took a hot button issue, and tried to draft a resolution round it, while not possessing the technical knowledge. Next time before you pop off, you may want to think about who you are lecturing to....

[Dirt Roads]

Since shale is our primary source of income (to the point that our dollar has earned the nickname "Shale Dollar" in foreign currency markets and domestically), we oppose any intrusion into our economy and have voted AGAINST this bill. If you wish to be on the good side of Dirt Roads' businesses (and their international branches) we suggest you do the same. If you hold property in Dirt Roads and vote for this bill strange things will start happening in your life.

[Chester Pearson]

Since shale is our primary source of income (to the point that our dollar has earned the nickname "Shale Dollar" in foreign currency markets and domestically), we oppose any intrusion into our economy and have voted AGAINST this bill. If you wish to be on the good side of Dirt Roads' businesses (and their international branches) we suggest you do the same. If you hold property in Dirt Roads and vote for this bill strange things will start happening in your life.

Rocks are a source of income? Who is you primary buyer?

[Yukonastan]

I vote FOR the convention, only because I'm anal about voting for policies that protect my environmentally stunning status. Unfortunately it looks like the industry side is winning at the moment.

[Chester Pearson]

I vote FOR the convention, only because I'm anal about voting for policies that protect my environmentally stunning status. Unfortunately it looks like the industry side is winning at the moment.

Nobody is winning at the moment. When this travesty finally dies, the status quo will be maintained, and your stats won't change....

[Frustrated Franciscans]

The Organic Vegan Commune of Frustrated Franciscans
Official Delegation to the World Assembly
“We praise You, Lord, for Sister Death!”
Friar John Sanders, OFM Ambassador and WA representative
Friar Tuck Ferguson, OFM Assistant Ambassador
Brother Maynard, TOR Keeper of the Holy Hand-grenade

The Organic Vegan Commune of Frustrated Franciscans rises against the resolution that is currently at vote. While some may wonder why an environmentally friendly nation would rise against an environmental resolution, where the brown bear frolics freely in the nation's many lush forests, and while some may point out that we are ruled without fear or favor by a psychotic dictator, who outlaws just about everything and refers to the populace as "my little playthings," I would suggest that we are ruled by rational thought and the occasional run on sentence.

Some have suggested that this not a well written resolution. I would disagree. I find the bold face, numerated points and bulleted points exceptionally well designed from a visual perspective. This is a well written series of bad assertions, fallacies and incorrect statements. It is just plain wrong.

The "RECOGNIZING" clause is factually wrong. As is the "'CONCERNED" clause.

The "Restricts" is even stranger. People who don't live in an incorporated area can pound sand? Is the measurement from the center of the incorporation or the outer boundary?

Therefore we have no other option than to vote NAY on this matter.

[Sauvage]

The representative adjusts his red bandana and 17th century military uniform.

"The Sauvage people and goverment are only new being introduced to steam power by our advanced allies to the south-west, we could care less for the woes of countries in danger of using horses or solar powered cars. Modern nations are fat and lazy, the Sauvage people live in far 'older' accommodations. Only ever needing to travel to an advanced nation for medical care.

I spit at you for complaining about this resolution."

The representative signals a highlander behind him holding bagpipes, who promptly begins playing 'The Battle is Over' who is then joined by drummers and more pipes barging into the room.

[Defwa]

The representative adjusts his red bandana and 17th century military uniform.

"The Sauvage people and goverment are only new being introduced to steam power by our advanced allies to the south-west, we could care less for the woes of countries in danger of using horses or solar powered cars. Modern nations are fat and lazy, the Sauvage people live in far 'older' accommodations. Only ever needing to travel to an advanced nation for medical care.

I spit at you for complaining about this resolution."

The representative signals a highlander behind him holding bagpipes, who promptly begins playing 'The Battle is Over' who is then joined by drummers and more pipes barging into the room.

Ambassador Landfree forms a slingshot out of her fingers and a rubber band and fires a pen into the bag pipe. The pen turns into a short length of rope shortly after penetrating the air bladder due to the weapon nullifier's delayed reaction to office supplies.

[Norilova]

Number Five, what you humans would call an "ambassador" for the Cylon Remnant votes YES to this resolution. After all, we really don't use "fracking" technology for power generation on Norilova, though we appreciate the pun involved in the word itself. We just use cold fusion technology to generate power in the capital of Gamoray, and our main cities on Nord Merica and Urpe, with less advanced solar and wind technology for Frica and Soth Merica, but still quite advanced in any case. So, in short, since we are not affected by this resolution, it is only logical to vote YES to it.

[Lumeau]

"50 miles from an incorporated community" is one of the most arbitrary provisions I've ever seen in a WA proposal.

Against.

--The Executive-General of the Commonwealth of Lumeau

[Coroscent]

"50 miles from an incorporated community" is one of the most arbitrary provisions I've ever seen in a WA proposal.

Against.

--The Executive-General of the Commonwealth of Lumeau

I am in total agreement with what you have said. In what way is it the duty of the WA to tell us where we can carry out out fracking for our gas and oil? Times are tough; we may be approaching the end of fossil fuels in the future, yet we are more dependant in them than ever. There are far too many regulations in this resolution for anyone to consider. The regulations on fracking should be a matter for nationstate democracy and a matter of the state only. On behalf of Yakus I shall be voting AGAINST this resolution, and I strongly urge those who favour independent industry to also vote AGAINST this resolution.

[California Prime]

What does the makeup of 90% of the fracking fluid have to do with the issue? Does that somehow negate the hundreds of chemicals that are "proprietary" that makes up part of the other 10%? Does it mean that natural gas and fracking fluids aren't at risk of contaminating ground water deposits? Does that negate the tens of thousands of people who may be sick or whose wells or house tap water is now unsafe for use?

You pulled a random, completely unrelated factoid from the internet, accused the WA of lacking a technical understanding of the issue while yourself displaying no rebuttal to the points within the resolution, and expect to be taken seriously?

Hydraulic Fracturing fluid is 90% water and sand. It is never going to contaminate ground water, as it is being done at depths far below local water tables.

OOC: As for my random factoid? I spent 25 years in the oil patch, dealing mostly with well stimulation, 70% of which was hydraulic fracturing. As I said, the author took a hot button issue, and tried to draft a resolution round it, while not possessing the technical knowledge. Next time before you pop off, you may want to think about who you are lecturing to....

well while you are busy posting face palm and rolling on the floor laughing smiley faces, you look pretty arrogant dismissing the concerns of dozens and dozens of scientific organizations and medical organizations, but I guess you know better than them since you were able to prove that the other 10% of chemicals in fracking fluid aren't toxic or hazardous, or that they can't seep into the water table...oh, wait a second you didn't even attempt to prove any of that because you can't. Nice opinion.
here is a list of political and independent citizens' groups who have concerns about how fracking is done
http://www.americansagainstfracking.org ... n/members/
just about every scientific journal and publication has serious concerns about how fracking is done and the political protection it is getting from the thousands of people who have come forward with complaints about effects of nearby fracking on their land and water supply.
I'm sure that you know better than all of them without actually having to post any evidence, I'm sure that the mystery chemicals that make up the other 10% of the fluid are just fine and never get in the ground water anyways, I mean you laughed at the notion, that should be evidence enough shouldn't it?

[Sauvage]

Hydraulic Fracturing fluid is 90% water and sand. It is never going to contaminate ground water, as it is being done at depths far below local water tables.

OOC: As for my random factoid? I spent 25 years in the oil patch, dealing mostly with well stimulation, 70% of which was hydraulic fracturing. As I said, the author took a hot button issue, and tried to draft a resolution round it, while not possessing the technical knowledge. Next time before you pop off, you may want to think about who you are lecturing to....

well while you are busy posting face palm and rolling on the floor laughing smiley faces, you look pretty arrogant dismissing the concerns of dozens and dozens of scientific organizations and medical organizations, but I guess you know better than them since you were able to prove that the other 10% of chemicals in fracking fluid aren't toxic or hazardous, or that they can't seep into the water table...oh, wait a second you didn't even attempt to prove any of that because you can't. Nice opinion.
here is a list of political and independent citizens' groups who have concerns about how fracking is done
http://www.americansagainstfracking.org ... n/members/
just about every scientific journal and publication has serious concerns about how fracking is done and the political protection it is getting from the thousands of people who have come forward with complaints about effects of nearby fracking on their land and water supply.
I'm sure that you know better than all of them without actually having to post any evidence, I'm sure that the mystery chemicals that make up the other 10% of the fluid are just fine and never get in the ground water anyways, I mean you laughed at the notion, that should be evidence enough shouldn't it?

OOC: I'm cringing, once you break the IRL and NationStates borders people get butthurt.

[Defwa]

well while you are busy posting face palm and rolling on the floor laughing smiley faces, you look pretty arrogant dismissing the concerns of dozens and dozens of scientific organizations and medical organizations, but I guess you know better than them since you were able to prove that the other 10% of chemicals in fracking fluid aren't toxic or hazardous, or that they can't seep into the water table...oh, wait a second you didn't even attempt to prove any of that because you can't. Nice opinion.
here is a list of political and independent citizens' groups who have concerns about how fracking is done
http://www.americansagainstfracking.org ... n/members/
just about every scientific journal and publication has serious concerns about how fracking is done and the political protection it is getting from the thousands of people who have come forward with complaints about effects of nearby fracking on their land and water supply.
I'm sure that you know better than all of them without actually having to post any evidence, I'm sure that the mystery chemicals that make up the other 10% of the fluid are just fine and never get in the ground water anyways, I mean you laughed at the notion, that should be evidence enough shouldn't it?

OOC: I'm cringing, once you break the IRL and NationStates borders people get butthurt.

OOC: Well Chesty did kind of start it with the whole "I'm a RL expert and you're dumb and thats all you need to know and all I"ll tell you"

[Chester Pearson]

Hydraulic Fracturing fluid is 90% water and sand. It is never going to contaminate ground water, as it is being done at depths far below local water tables.

OOC: As for my random factoid? I spent 25 years in the oil patch, dealing mostly with well stimulation, 70% of which was hydraulic fracturing. As I said, the author took a hot button issue, and tried to draft a resolution round it, while not possessing the technical knowledge. Next time before you pop off, you may want to think about who you are lecturing to....

well while you are busy posting face palm and rolling on the floor laughing smiley faces, you look pretty arrogant dismissing the concerns of dozens and dozens of scientific organizations and medical organizations, but I guess you know better than them since you were able to prove that the other 10% of chemicals in fracking fluid aren't toxic or hazardous, or that they can't seep into the water table...oh, wait a second you didn't even attempt to prove any of that because you can't. Nice opinion.
here is a list of political and independent citizens' groups who have concerns about how fracking is done
http://www.americansagainstfracking.org ... n/members/
just about every scientific journal and publication has serious concerns about how fracking is done and the political protection it is getting from the thousands of people who have come forward with complaints about effects of nearby fracking on their land and water supply.
I'm sure that you know better than all of them without actually having to post any evidence, I'm sure that the mystery chemicals that make up the other 10% of the fluid are just fine and never get in the ground water anyways, I mean you laughed at the notion, that should be evidence enough shouldn't it?

Americans Against Fracking? That is a good one. Funded wholly by none other than...... GREENPEACE!

But fine, the remaining chemicals are:

1. Hydrochloric Acid. Pretty proprietary and secret stuff there.... I can go down to the local supermarket and pick up a jug of it. It is called VINEGAR.
2. Diesel. Sold at every gas station....
3. Toluene as an emulsifier. Sold at your local hardware store...

99.9% of these chemicals are swabbed back after the stimulation is complete. The only flow back you get is saline from the formation. The sand stays in place to prop the formation up, and hold the perforations in the casing open. As for seismic activity? You get most of it from the actual seismic crews out running seismic tests with dynamite months before a drilling rig ever sets up, let alone the service rig that is completing the well.

As for the people that are "lighting their water on fire"? That is shallow well coal bed methane fracturing, which is done with 100% water, at low pressures. It drives the gas into solution, and flows it back into the well bore, along with salt water. There is always going to be some leakage, as it is all open hole.

So once again, before you run off at the mouth, remember this maxim: "Start the brain, before engaging the mouth".

[Wrapper]

1. Hydrochloric Acid. Pretty proprietary and secret stuff there.... I can go down to the local supermarket and pick up a jug of it. It is called VINEGAR.

Oh, Chester, Chester, Chester. Hydrochloric acid in vinegar? That's acetic acid, not HCl.

[Chester Pearson]

1. Hydrochloric Acid. Pretty proprietary and secret stuff there.... I can go down to the local supermarket and pick up a jug of it. It is called VINEGAR.

Oh, Chester, Chester, Chester. Hydrochloric acid in vinegar? That's acetic acid, not HCl.

Of that you are correct. I was thinking of something else. Please excuse this slip of my brain?

[California Prime]

Oh, Chester, Chester, Chester. Hydrochloric acid in vinegar? That's acetic acid, not HCl.

Of that you are correct. I was thinking of something else. Please excuse this slip of my brain?

1--They are PROPRIETARY chemical mixes, you don't know the chemicals any better than me so stop acting like you do
2--congrats, you discredited 1 of the several hundred groups in that coalition by.....stating that you don't like that group. Oh wow, I guess that entire coalition must be all messed up, you ridiculed one of their member groups, very conclusive argument you made.

[Chester Pearson]

1--They are PROPRIETARY chemical mixes, you don't know the chemicals any better than me so stop acting like you do

Chemical Name CAS Chemical Purpose Product Function
Hydrochloric Acid 007647-01-0 Helps dissolve minerals and initiate cracks in the rock Acid


Glutaraldehyde 000111-30-8 Eliminates bacteria in the water that produces corrosive by-products Biocide
Quaternary Ammonium Chloride 012125-02-9 Eliminates bacteria in the water that produces corrosive by-products Biocide
Quaternary Ammonium Chloride 061789-71-1 Eliminates bacteria in the water that produces corrosive by-products Biocide
Tetrakis Hydroxymethyl-Phosphonium Sulfate 055566-30-8 Eliminates bacteria in the water that produces corrosive by-products Biocide

Ammonium Persulfate 007727-54-0 Allows a delayed break down of the gel Breaker
Sodium Chloride 007647-14-5 Product Stabilizer Breaker
Magnesium Peroxide 014452-57-4 Allows a delayed break down the gel Breaker
Magnesium Oxide 001309-48-4 Allows a delayed break down the gel Breaker
Calcium Chloride 010043-52-4 Product Stabilizer Breaker

Choline Chloride 000067-48-1 Prevents clays from swelling or shifting Clay Stabilizer
Tetramethyl ammonium chloride 000075-57-0 Prevents clays from swelling or shifting Clay Stabilizer
Sodium Chloride 007647-14-5 Prevents clays from swelling or shifting Clay Stabilizer

Isopropanol 000067-63-0 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent Corrosion Inhibitor
Methanol 000067-56-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent Corrosion Inhibitor
Formic Acid 000064-18-6 Prevents the corrosion of the pipe Corrosion Inhibitor
Acetaldehyde 000075-07-0 Prevents the corrosion of the pipe Corrosion Inhibitor

Petroleum Distillate 064741-85-1 Carrier fluid for borate or zirconate crosslinker Crosslinker
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate 064742-47-8 Carrier fluid for borate or zirconate crosslinker Crosslinker
Potassium Metaborate 013709-94-9 Maintains fluid viscosity as temperature increases Crosslinker
Triethanolamine Zirconate 101033-44-7 Maintains fluid viscosity as temperature increases Crosslinker
Sodium Tetraborate 001303-96-4 Maintains fluid viscosity as temperature increases Crosslinker
Boric Acid 001333-73-9 Maintains fluid viscosity as temperature increases Crosslinker
Zirconium Complex 113184-20-6 Maintains fluid viscosity as temperature increases Crosslinker
Borate Salts N/A Maintains fluid viscosity as temperature increases Crosslinker
Ethylene Glycol 000107-21-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Crosslinker
Methanol 000067-56-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Crosslinker

Polyacrylamide 009003-05-8 “Slicks” the water to minimize friction Friction Reducer
Petroleum Distillate 064741-85-1 Carrier fluid for polyacrylamide friction reducer Friction Reducer
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate 064742-47-8 Carrier fluid for polyacrylamide friction reducer Friction Reducer
Methanol 000067-56-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Friction Reducer
Ethylene Glycol 000107-21-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Friction Reducer

Guar Gum 009000-30-0 Thickens the water in order to suspend the sand Gelling Agent
Petroleum Distillate 064741-85-1 Carrier fluid for guar gum in liquid gels Gelling Agent
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate 064742-47-8 Carrier fluid for guar gum in liquid gels Gelling Agent
Methanol 000067-56-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Gelling Agent
Polysaccharide Blend 068130-15-4 Thickens the water in order to suspend the sand Gelling Agent
Ethylene Glycol 000107-21-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Gelling Agent

Citric Acid 000077-92-9 Prevents precipitation of metal oxides Iron Control
Acetic Acid 000064-19-7 Prevents precipitation of metal oxides Iron Control
Thioglycolic Acid 000068-11-1 Prevents precipitation of metal oxides Iron Control
Sodium Erythorbate 006381-77-7 Prevents precipitation of metal oxides Iron Control

Lauryl Sulfate 000151-21-3 Used to prevent the formation of emulsions in the fracture fluid Non-Emulsifier
Isopropanol 000067-63-0 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Non-Emulsifier
Ethylene Glycol 000107-21-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Non-Emulsifier

Sodium Hydroxide 001310-73-2 Adjusts the pH of fluid to maintains the effectiveness of other components, such as crosslinkers pH Adjusting Agent
Potassium Hydroxide 001310-58-3 Adjusts the pH of fluid to maintains the effectiveness of other components, such as crosslinkers pH Adjusting Agent
Acetic Acid 000064-19-7 Adjusts the pH of fluid to maintains the effectiveness of other components, such as crosslinkers pH Adjusting Agent
Sodium Carbonate 000497-19-8 Adjusts the pH of fluid to maintains the effectiveness of other components, such as crosslinkers pH Adjusting Agent
Potassium Carbonate 000584-08-7 Adjusts the pH of fluid to maintains the effectiveness of other components, such as crosslinkers pH Adjusting Agent

Copolymer of Acrylamide and Sodium Acrylate 025987-30-8 Prevents scale deposits in the pipe Scale Inhibitor
Sodium Polycarboxylate N/A Prevents scale deposits in the pipe Scale Inhibitor
Phosphonic Acid Salt N/A Prevents scale deposits in the pipe Scale Inhibitor

Lauryl Sulfate 000151-21-3 Used to increase the viscosity of the fracture fluid Surfactant
Ethanol 000064-17-5 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Surfactant
Naphthalene 000091-20-3 Carrier fluid for the active surfactant ingredients Surfactant
Methanol 000067-56-1 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Surfactant
Isopropyl Alcohol 000067-63-0 Product stabilizer and / or winterizing agent. Surfactant
2-Butoxyethanol 000111-76-2 Product stabilizer Surfactant

http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what- ... s-are-used

There ya go skippy....

[Defwa]

well while you are busy posting face palm and rolling on the floor laughing smiley faces, you look pretty arrogant dismissing the concerns of dozens and dozens of scientific organizations and medical organizations, but I guess you know better than them since you were able to prove that the other 10% of chemicals in fracking fluid aren't toxic or hazardous, or that they can't seep into the water table...oh, wait a second you didn't even attempt to prove any of that because you can't. Nice opinion.
here is a list of political and independent citizens' groups who have concerns about how fracking is done
http://www.americansagainstfracking.org ... n/members/
just about every scientific journal and publication has serious concerns about how fracking is done and the political protection it is getting from the thousands of people who have come forward with complaints about effects of nearby fracking on their land and water supply.
I'm sure that you know better than all of them without actually having to post any evidence, I'm sure that the mystery chemicals that make up the other 10% of the fluid are just fine and never get in the ground water anyways, I mean you laughed at the notion, that should be evidence enough shouldn't it?

Americans Against Fracking? That is a good one. Funded wholly by none other than...... GREENPEACE!

But fine, the remaining chemicals are:

1. Hydrochloric Acid. Pretty proprietary and secret stuff there.... I can go down to the local supermarket and pick up a jug of it. It is called VINEGAR.
2. Diesel. Sold at every gas station....
3. Toluene as an emulsifier. Sold at your local hardware store...

99.9% of these chemicals are swabbed back after the stimulation is complete. The only flow back you get is saline from the formation. The sand stays in place to prop the formation up, and hold the perforations in the casing open. As for seismic activity? You get most of it from the actual seismic crews out running seismic tests with dynamite months before a drilling rig ever sets up, let alone the service rig that is completing the well.

As for the people that are "lighting their water on fire"? That is shallow well coal bed methane fracturing, which is done with 100% water, at low pressures. It drives the gas into solution, and flows it back into the well bore, along with salt water. There is always going to be some leakage, as it is all open hole.

So once again, before you run off at the mouth, remember this maxim: "Start the brain, before engaging the mouth".

Other chemicals included in some fracking fluids (because there are a variety of fluids using different chemicals) are methanol, naphthalene, ethylene glycol, toluene, a variety of other benzene based chemicals. All of which, with prolonged low level exposure, can cause serious health issues.

Now I'll agree that, when done properly, fracking does not usual cause contamination
So there should be no harm in mandating that those proper practices be done all the time.
I'll also agree that the expertise to do so is lacking in this assembly because the people who consider themselves experts have so far refused to lend anyone the benefit of their expertise.
Lastly, I'll agree that this has not really be validated as an international issue yet- but I do have to stand up and point out regulation is necessary at some level as you do seem to be implying that no regulation is needed at all, as if companies can be trusted to always act in ways best for the general population and the environment.
What we really don't need is you acting superior all the time. You really do have such an awful attitude. I know this assembly could try the patience of Wizard Terikun the Enduring, but we must all have the self control to step aside, gather our data, and avoid accusing everyone who disagrees of lacking mental ability. Especially on topics such as this, where this is a legitimate debate for public safety.

[Araraukar]

OOC: Could you, all of you, please take the RL debate stuff into telegrams? Or at least put it in spoilers? Please?

[Normlpeople]

Edit: Rather than stir this pot, i'll just agree, put the RL stuff in spoilers.

[Coroscent]

Number Five, what you humans would call an "ambassador" for the Cylon Remnant votes YES to this resolution. After all, we really don't use "fracking" technology for power generation on Norilova, though we appreciate the pun involved in the word itself. We just use cold fusion technology to generate power in the capital of Gamoray, and our main cities on Nord Merica and Urpe, with less advanced solar and wind technology for Frica and Soth Merica, but still quite advanced in any case. So, in short, since we are not affected by this resolution, it is only logical to vote YES to it.

I really must ask the Ambassador for Norilova why they think it appropriate to just vote FOR this resolution even though it wouldn't affect their nation; no fracking in their nation, so why vote on this matter at all in order to pass a law that would affect other nations but not your own? If it doesn't apply to you, don't vote on it.

[Aligned Planets]

so why vote on this matter at all in order to pass a law that would affect other nations but not your own? If it doesn't apply to you, don't vote on it.

Now that is a novel principle..

Still against. Glad this is failing, but more for a bitter sense of disappointment after our own attempts failed

[Normlpeople]

Convention on Fracking" was defeated 5,773 votes to 3,174.