[DEFEATED] Repeal "Rights and Duties of WA States"

[Araraukar]

It says something about this repeal that no-one is discussing it, but rather concentrates on which politician stabbed another in the back first, and who's the biggest liar.

[Wrapper]

It says something about this repeal that no-one is discussing it, but rather concentrates on which politician stabbed another in the back first, and who's the biggest liar.

Good point.

Voted against. This repeal sucks. We're done here.

[The Dark Star Republic]

It says something about this repeal that no-one is discussing it, but rather concentrates on which politician stabbed another in the back first, and who's the biggest liar.

OOC: I don't think it does. Arguments in favour of the repeal have been consistently ignored. If Frisbeeteria wants to come and defend the substance of his resolution, he's entirely welcome to do so.

And that's not to condone any of the OOC bickering by supporters of the repeal, either. But the fact that the repeal passed by a huge margin (only to be Discarded) and is now failing by a huge margin suggests that this vote really is not about the substance of the repeal argument - unless you're suggesting that entire vote swing can be attributed solely to Douria omitting the line about a replacement.

...Gruenberg got involved after a stormy exit, so I thought maybe things were better...

They're not. Run, far far away.

[Mousebumples]

But the fact that the repeal passed by a huge margin (only to be Discarded) and is now failing by a huge margin suggests that this vote really is not about the substance of the repeal argument - unless you're suggesting that entire vote swing can be attributed solely to Douria omitting the line about a replacement.

I would agree. I would argue, rather, that it's evidence that campaigning can make a big difference when it comes to passing a repeal or resolution.

Trial One: Auralia (using an arguably deceptive puppet) used stamps to send a telegram to every WA nation in the game, after voting had started.
Trial Two: To my knowledge, I've run the only campaign on this repeal - and I used a script to TG every WA Delegate to ask them to vote against. (I'm not counting Douria's campaign to get the proposal to quorum.) A puppet of mine also posted a relatively widely viewed dispatch (260 reads, as of this posting) enumerating the same details that are contained in the my telegram campaign.

When only one side runs a campaign, the outcome of the vote is affected. Is this really a surprise to anyone around here who watches the lemming effect every time we have a resolution At Vote?

[Linux and the X]

Most of the people applauding Douria were the same people who got the mods to delete a popular resolution after it passed

First, a nitpick: the repeal was not deleted after it was passed. It was still at vote, and it was not deleted; rather, the vote was ignored. The effect is the same, but let's be accurate here, eh? To the substance of your argument, though. Auralia relied on trickery against the entire WA membership, including inexperienced members. Douria, on the other hand, only tricked Auralia. Whatever our disagreements (numerous as they are), Auralia is certainly an experienced WA member. While "they started it!" is often not a good argument, I would say that in this case it is. By engaging in trickery, Auralia implicitly states that trickery is okay. The condemnation of Auralia is not merely "trickery is bad" (though this oversimplification has been said by Auralia's condemners and supporters alike), but rather "trickery used against unwilling, and especially inexperienced, members is bad". It is not contradictory or hypocritical to condemn Auralia while celebrating Douria.

[World News]

OOC: Drama booooomb. Makes me kinda want to start a NS news rag

OOC: Do it!

Bam. Building it.

[Frustrated Franciscans]

The Organic Vegan Commune of Frustrated Franciscans
Official Delegation to the World Assembly
“We praise You, Lord, for Sister Death!”
Friar John Sanders, OFM Ambassador and WA representative
Friar Tuck Ferguson, OFM Assistant Ambassador
Brother Maynard, TOR Keeper of the Holy Hand-grenade

As our first action in the World Assembly, the Organic Vegan Commune of Frustrated Franciscans has decided to vote against the repeal. Since this seems to be in opposition with the general consensus of our region, it seems necessary and proper for us to explain the rationale and reasoning for the above decision.

While we are firmly against the godless, utopian, progressive overreach that a small number of nations in the World Assembly want to impose upon the multiverse, and while we remain committed towards repealing all resolutions that are so constructed, we find that GA Resolution #2 does not count as one of these resolutions. We find the resolution reasonable and not onerous. We find the repeal argument petty and, to some extent, arrogant.

We also note the following; ignoring the delegate votes, the resolution is failing among the regular member nations (873/2,376). Clearly the ordinary nations of the WA do not want this repealed.

Finally, we congratulate Douria for its kind attempt to support a resolution that it didn’t believe in simply because of the unfair nature of the way the original resolution was taken off of the table, which had nothing to do whatsoever with the text itself. Well played Douria, well played. To see these people, who are, for the most part, godless, utopian, progressives, being hoisted on their own petards is the best news I’ve seen since seeing the letter from the World Assembly accepting our application for membership. I would like to wish everyone a holy season, whatever their beliefs may be, and wish for those who had supported this repeal that they live frustrating lives.

[Cardoness]

While we are firmly against the godless, utopian, progressive overreach that a small number of nations in the World Assembly want to impose upon the multiverse...

This made me laugh, can I use it? I'm thinking of being "The Godless Utopian Progressive Kingdom of Cardoness".

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Character limit may not let you use the whole title.

[Cardoness]

Character limit may not let you use the whole title.

You're right. I'd have to ax one of them, Kingdom maybe.

[Abacathea]

It says a lot about the state of affairs of the Assembly when it comes down to it when some of the major players of it are currently here tearing each other to pieces over this.

I must admit, I'm conflicted here with what's gone down, I was firmly against the repeal and I've been quite vocal about that, which should for all intensive purposes be the focus of this thread, but as it would happen, the GA always likes to throw a wrench into the status quo. Kenny, Glen, Ara, Douria, Mall, Auralia and as much as it pains me to say it even Gruen have all made some very valid points in this thread. What side of the fence they sit on is irrelevant, there have been some valid points made.

The GA as of late has dissolved into either poor proposal writing, with endless drafts on the same nonsense and any attempts to step away from the status quo being utterly slammed before it has a chance to take any wings and progress us into a more open minded aspect of gameplay or political manouvering equated only to who has the biggest cock and is willing to display it long enough before the cops arrive and tell us to "shake em off and put 'em away lads". In truth, a lot of the fun in an area I delighted in being part of was taken some months ago.

However, I cannot say this tactic, while I admit I expressed to Douria my unease about, is consistent with the causes of the lack of enjoyment. No. If anything, this is a poor but honest reflection of the fact that the WA has become stagnant. It takes drama like this to pull some of the biggest names in the WA side of the game out of their slumbers be it either to defend the aforementioned drama or condemn it. When was the last time myself, kenny, glen, gruen or any of the other more established names had something at vote? We're ok to sit back and slam the WA for what it's become, and yet done very little to turn the tide. And while I confess I miss authoring works, the WA as it stands just... doesn't invite me in as much as it used to. And the sheer bitter bitchiness of some players, new and old, really hasn't helped that much either.

Change won't be accomplished by a few of us sitting here crying foul when it goes down, new authors are exposed to the virtriol of the WA from the outset and know only that as they progress. If we want to stem the tide of shit, it's time we (those of us who've seen the decline and are bothered by it truly) stepped up. Or the decline will only progress further. And manouvers such as this, while not surprising in a political game, will become the benchmark for WA gameplay.

[Tantricia]

Truly, Abacathea, the only possible way for the WA to achieve the incredible greatness it once knew is for fantastic nations like you and those governed by your friends to be involved again, yes?

[Abacathea]

Truly, Abacathea, the only possible way for the WA to achieve the incredible greatness it once knew is for fantastic nations like you and those governed by your friends to be involved again, yes?

I don't know if I'm essentially saying that, I never intended to be cocky about what I was saying above, and if I came across that way, I apologise. But there is a wealth of knowledge between nations who've weighted in on this thread who between them I count in excess of about 50+ resolutions written and passed.

Gruenberg/TDSR is part of the old gaurd, he knows the old UN as it was in the day and what it took to keep those cogs spinning. Mousbumples has a serious catalogue of resolutions passed in this assembly. Kenny has written some fantastic legislation both current and UN. Glen-Rhodes too has an impressive collection of written works, hell even Douria the crux of the issue at the moment is up there in the numbers count.

What I'm saying is, and maybe it's wrong of me to say it, but when was the last time any of us showed up to mould a new author, to give decent feedback to someone or steer them in the right direction with a gentle hand as oppossed to a heavy smack. Those of us that have made a name for ourselves in this Assembly, owe it by that very virtue to do more than just complain when shit goes down. And I for one am very much guilty of this myself. Maybe it's just not my place to point this out. I don't know. But I certainly am not attempting to be condescending or disengenious to anyone in what I'm saying. I have the utmost respect for about 99% of the people in the Assembly and have made some great friends out of it, including some of those I've named above. I just feel that change can only be assurred when people make an active stride towards making it happen.

Edit: Perhaps this sums up my thoughts a bit better:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=291928

[The Dark Star Republic]

... When was the last time myself, kenny, glen, gruen or any of the other more established names had something at vote? ...

OOC: That disingenuous bile is beneath contempt. I cannot move forward on my repeal while the mods continue to stonewall me, something they have been doing for over three months.

Besides, why would anyone put any effort into drafting any legislation? The quality of the forum is abject, and the standard of moderation so woefully inconsistent that it might all end up being meaningless anyway. Fun fact: Ban on Slavery and Trafficking, a resolution that took months to write, with numerous different contributors - the kind of collaborative drafting project that wouldn't even be considered by the "badge" obsessed authors of today - would not now have been possible. Because it commits the terrible crime of referencing "all nations" and hence would have been summarily deleted by Kryozerkia the Wise.

[Abacathea]

... When was the last time myself, kenny, glen, gruen or any of the other more established names had something at vote? ...

OOC: That disingenuous bile is beneath contempt. I cannot move forward on my repeal while the mods continue to stonewall me, something they have been doing for over three months.

Besides, why would anyone put any effort into drafting any legislation? The quality of the forum is abject, and the standard of moderation so woefully inconsistent that it might all end up being meaningless anyway. Fun fact: Ban on Slavery and Trafficking, a resolution that took months to write, with numerous different contributors - the kind of collaborative drafting project that wouldn't even be considered by the "badge" obsessed authors of today - would not now have been possible. Because it commits the terrible crime of referencing "all nations" and hence would have been summarily deleted by Kryozerkia the Wise.

To be honest Gruen, that right there is half the problem with the assembly at the moment. At no point was I attempting to be insincere or offensive, and yet I get that ^. 'nuff said.

[Cardoness]

OOC: To the points that G-R, Abacathea, and TDSR have made, I can't speak to the state of moderation nowadays, but there is a decided lack of activity from many of the old guard. The number of bad proposals hasn't changed much, but the number of good ones has. It used to be that there were always a handful of promising resolutions being worked on with lively debate and honest give and take molding and crafting it into a great document one would be proud to have helped craft, let alone have their name on it. Now, one is hard pressed to find more than a couple. And those, surprise, are from older states like Bears Armed and Eireann Fae. The answer is not to toss our hands in the air, call it a hopeless situation, and close up shop. Rather it is to become more involved, hold ourselves and others to a higher standard. I've never cared about the badge and I find babysitting a resolution from creation to vote a headache, but I decided a while back (before my health forced my sabbatical) to do what I could to improve the state of affairs in the WA by nurturing and guiding new authors in addition to bringing my own proposals forward. If more of the old guard would do the same we might be able to turn this place around.

[The Dark Star Republic]

OOC: To the points that G-R, Abacathea, and TDSR have made, I can't speak to the state of moderation nowadays, but there is a decided lack of activity from many of the old guard. The number of bad proposals hasn't changed much, but the number of good ones has. It used to be that there were always a handful of promising resolutions being worked on with lively debate and honest give and take molding and crafting it into a great document one would be proud to have helped craft, let alone have their name on it. Now, one is hard pressed to find more than a couple. And those, surprise, are from older states like Bears Armed and Eireann Fae. The answer is not to toss our hands in the air, call it a hopeless situation, and close up shop. Rather it is to become more involved, hold ourselves and others to a higher standard. I've never cared about the badge and I find babysitting a resolution from creation to vote a headache, but I decided a while back (before my health forced my sabbatical) to do what I could to improve the state of affairs in the WA by nurturing and guiding new authors in addition to bringing my own proposals forward. If more of the old guard would do the same we might be able to turn this place around.

OOC: Great! Here would be my suggestion for what players should do to get more involved.

They should get a proposal idea and write a draft.
They should get other players to comment on their draft and help them on the draft, incorporating their suggestions to improve it.
When it's time for submission, they should get a legality check from the mods.
Then they should campaign for their proposal, and hopefully see it pass!

...except, all of that is exactly what Auralia did. Remind me, how that's going for him?

[Cardoness]

OOC: To the points that G-R, Abacathea, and TDSR have made, I can't speak to the state of moderation nowadays, but there is a decided lack of activity from many of the old guard. The number of bad proposals hasn't changed much, but the number of good ones has. It used to be that there were always a handful of promising resolutions being worked on with lively debate and honest give and take molding and crafting it into a great document one would be proud to have helped craft, let alone have their name on it. Now, one is hard pressed to find more than a couple. And those, surprise, are from older states like Bears Armed and Eireann Fae. The answer is not to toss our hands in the air, call it a hopeless situation, and close up shop. Rather it is to become more involved, hold ourselves and others to a higher standard. I've never cared about the badge and I find babysitting a resolution from creation to vote a headache, but I decided a while back (before my health forced my sabbatical) to do what I could to improve the state of affairs in the WA by nurturing and guiding new authors in addition to bringing my own proposals forward. If more of the old guard would do the same we might be able to turn this place around.

OOC: Great! Here would be my suggestion for what players should do to get more involved.

They should get a proposal idea and write a draft.
They should get other players to comment on their draft and help them on the draft, incorporating their suggestions to improve it.
When it's time for submission, they should get a legality check from the mods.
Then they should campaign for their proposal, and hopefully see it pass!

...except, all of that is exactly what Auralia did. Remind me, how that's going for him?

You're right. I was (regrettably? thankfully?) absent during the last attempted repeal and so missed out on all that happened. The point I was making though is that many of the regulars are no longer drafting their own ideas or constructively commenting on the ideas of others. There are some, such as yourself, to be sure but most have gone silent and now we wonder why the WA is in the shape it is.

As for the proposal, I have cast my vote FOR. I said before I was unconvinced that it should be repealed. After reading though the first debate and this one I have been won over. I know it is a lost cause at this point, but wanted to show that a well reasoned argument still has some power.

[The Dark Star Republic]

You're right. I was (regrettably? thankfully?) absent during the last attempted repeal and so missed out on all that happened. The point I was making though is that many of the regulars are no longer drafting their own ideas or constructively commenting on the ideas of others. There are some, such as yourself, to be sure but most have gone silent and now we wonder why the WA is in the shape it is.

OOC: And the point I am making is that it's easy to blame older players for quitting, but that perhaps their absence is the product of mounting frustration. The only reason I am "no longer drafting [my] own ideas" is that doing so got me absolutely nowhere: I've been asking for a response from the moderators since December about National Economic Freedoms and am no closer to getting it. Maybe I should be careful what I wish for; it's not like the responses make a lot of sense when they do come.

To bring this back to the point of this thread: complaining that players are not getting involved seems out of place given the crowing and gloating associated with a deliberately pernicious effort to prevent those same players getting involved.

[Hakio]

You're right. I was (regrettably? thankfully?) absent during the last attempted repeal and so missed out on all that happened. The point I was making though is that many of the regulars are no longer drafting their own ideas or constructively commenting on the ideas of others. There are some, such as yourself, to be sure but most have gone silent and now we wonder why the WA is in the shape it is.

OOC: And the point I am making is that it's easy to blame older players for quitting, but that perhaps their absence is the product of mounting frustration. The only reason I am "no longer drafting [my] own ideas" is that doing so got me absolutely nowhere: I've been asking for a response from the moderators since December about National Economic Freedoms and am no closer to getting it. Maybe I should be careful what I wish for; it's not like the responses make a lot of sense when they do come.

To bring this back to the point of this thread: complaining that players are not getting involved seems out of place given the crowing and gloating associated with a deliberately pernicious effort to prevent those same players getting involved.

OOC: Define what you mean by gloating, please?

[Snefaldia]

Probably exactly the way it's defined. What other definition is there?

[Hakio]

Probably exactly the way it's defined. What other definition is there?

What I mean is could you tell us what exactly we did was gloating and why it's so horrible.

[SverigeKins]

This is an At Vote debate on a repeal; as the submitter has rejected it, please focus on his text-related reasons. The text is what's up for vote, though it is relevant to comment on whether other matters affected your vote.

Thank you.

I am voting for this resolution, as it points out some flaws in GA#2. Some interventions classified as "war" (humanitarian and peacekeeping were two cited examples) are illegal under GA#2. I hope that a more encompassing, direct replacement resolution be passed soon.

[Mallorea and Riva]

And people like Mallorea and Riva will revel in it, even as they become kings of an empty game.

My vindictive gameplay personality should be kept separate from my GA personality thank you very much. They don't cross over and are quite distinct. Besides I would never unseat King Koopman.

Yeah, uh-huh. It's also apparently about high-handed superiority and vain declarations to how much better you are than everyone else. Plus the mind-boggling irony of an R&Der presuming to look down his nose on other players' supposed duplicity and dirty dealings.

Glen-Rhodes is just as much of a WA Author as you are, Kenny. When was the last time you wrote and drafted an actual proposal? Glen's been a champion for less duplicity and corruption in Gameplay, the fact that he is calling for it in the WA too is not hypocrisy as you suggest, but consistency.

Yes like when he was distributing the script that admin deemed illegal which automoved and endorsed nations for defenders to utilize during liberations, and then refused to cease making it available to players once admin cracked down on him Besides Kenny didn't question that GR was a WA author, just as I doubt GR was questioning that Douria is as well, his comment was focused upon the gameplay aspect.

But all of this is more or less irrelevant.

I support the effort of the Dourian Delegation in this political jujitsu. I'm of the opinion that it was brilliant and that those who are criticizing it are simply jealous that they didn't think of it first. Or they are proponents of the repeal in which case their moral outrage really isn't worth anyone's serious consideration.

[Hakio]

And people like Mallorea and Riva will revel in it, even as they become kings of an empty game.

My vindictive gameplay personality should be kept separate from my GA personality thank you very much. They don't cross over and are quite distinct. Besides I would never unseat King Koopman.

I support the effort of the Dourian Delegation in this political jujitsu. I'm of the opinion that it was brilliant and that those who are criticizing it are simply jealous that they didn't think of it first. Or they are proponents of the repeal in which case their moral outrage really isn't worth anyone's serious consideration.

"And I'm of the opinion that his opinion is right."

Words of wisdom from
~Sia Hedishi