[PASSED] Reproductive Freedoms

[Elke and Elba]

If EF, E and E and Mousey are going to campaign for this resolution if reintroduced, I will offer any assistance I can give.

I'm afraid I can't actively help campaign for this. My fuse for the WA has broken, and it's time to take a break (again). Honestly - I haven't seen anything as unreasonable, rude and foolish as the WA. In fact I feel mildly retarded just trying to get my point across.

I might just finish up my sanitation draft if I can - but I don't know. It could take long.

[Christian Democrats]

In fact I feel mildly retarded

On Abortion might have allowed your mother to abort you under the fetal defects provision.

[Elke and Elba]

In fact I feel mildly retarded

On Abortion might have allowed your mother to abort you under the fetal defects provision.

IRL She would be able to abort me if she wanted. That point is irrelevant no matter how you say. And I respect that choice.

Also, you're missing the point - since the fact I said "I feel mildly retarded [in the WA]" seems to suggest linguistically that my source of retardation is because of you people (ouch!) rather than being caused by my own mental and physical being.

[Christian Democrats]

I recommend that you not use the word "retarded" except in the medical context in the future. It is offensive to people who actually suffer from retardation: having an intelligence quotient score less than 70.

[Elke and Elba]

I recommend that you not use the word "retarded" except in the medical context in the future. It is offensive to people who actually suffer from retardation: having an intelligence quotient score less than 70.

IQ hasn't to be proven to be objective in any case - furthermore - "retarded" isn't used in the medical context to refer to such a condition, I believe. I do believe the phrase is "intellectually disabled".

Also, retardation could refer to the slowing down of an object in motion. In fact - the older phrase and rarely seen phrase these days would be "mentally retarded".

[Aligned Planets]

I recommend that you not use the word "retarded" except in the medical context in the future. It is offensive to people who actually suffer from retardation: having an intelligence quotient score less than 70.

IQ hasn't to be proven to be objective in any case - furthermore - "retarded" isn't used in the medical context to refer to such a condition, I believe. I do believe the phrase is "intellectually disabled".

Also, retardation could refer to the slowing down of an object in motion. In fact - the older phrase and rarely seen phrase these days would be "mentally retarded".

OOC: Indeed, in the UK, the terms intellectual disability or learning disability are preferred.

IC: I think it is a shame that EF's proposal here didn't come to pass. Happy to work to secure its passage in the future.

[Mousebumples]

If EF, E and E and Mousey are going to campaign for this resolution if reintroduced, I will offer any assistance I can give.

I'm planning to help EF run a scripted TG campaign. The biggest thing we need, though, is a good counter-argument to the "LET NATIONS DECIDE!" argument that Auralia has mentioned before - and is sure to mention again. I don't have the time right now to draft up something along those lines, but I would think something along the lines of what I alluded to above would be useful. If the WA has decided to "interfere" and ensure that homosexuals and transsexuals and [800 different other classes of individuals] have their rights protected under law, why shouldn't women have the rights to make their own decisions about their own bodies and their own reproductive rights?

That is the argument that needs to be won. That this is a WA issue that should be tackled by the WA. Because I think there's enough support for the contents of this proposal - on a nation-by-nation basis - for this to win. But we need to convince the voters (and WADs that need to approve this proposal) that this is a fight that the WA needs to take on, in order to ensure that women across the multi-verse are assured of the reproductive rights they deserve.

... And pre-emptively mentioning that approving WADs are likely to get a counter-campaign TG or twelve that try to persuade them otherwise by nations that have a history of all but ignoring resolutions they don't like? Might not hurt either.

[Kelinfort]

I will vote for this resolution when it comes to ballot and will happily aid in its campaigning.

[Elke and Elba]

I'm actually quite surprised at the response after it failed to reached quorum.

I'm afraid Auralia's counter-campaign might have just unleashed the Streisand Effect.

[Mousebumples]

I'm actually quite surprised at the response after it failed to reached quorum.

I'm afraid Auralia's counter-campaign might have just unleashed the Streisand Effect.

Haha, I just told EF about the same thing in a TG. I think that this need to redouble our efforts on the matter may be ... quite helpful, in the long run and may (hopefully) result in the resolution's eventual passage.

*fingers crossed*

[Aligned Planets]

It can, in the end, only result in a stronger resolution I guess.

[Bears Armed]

If the WA has decided to "interfere" and ensure that homosexuals and transsexuals and [800 different other classes of individuals] have their rights protected under law, why shouldn't women have the rights to make their own decisions about their own bodies and their own reproductive rights?

OOC
To which the obvious counter-argument, believed in sincerely by a lot of people, is "Why shouldn't foetuses (at least those that are well-developed, say [in human terms] those that are now in the last trimester of gestation) have the right to not be killed? Does a woman's right not to be inconvenienced by continuing to carry the foetus to term during that trimester really trump the unborn child's right not to be murdered?"
You might think that it does, but if so then a lot of people honestly disagree with you, and simply trying to dimsiss them all [inaccurately; I myself, for example, am OOC either an atheist or an agnostic depending on precisely how one defines those two terms] as 'religious fanatics' -- as some supporters of proposals like this have been known to do -- will alienate voters who might support a more moderate proposal.

And if this is re-submitted then hopefully it wil be with a title that more accurately reflects the actual contents: 'Counter-Reproductive Freedoms' perhaps, or 'Freedom From Reproduction', or something else along those lines.

[Auralia]

This post is OOC.

A number of players have expressed their concern to me about my counter-campaign of this proposal and my remark to Eireann Fae when it became likely that the proposal would fail to reach quorum.

I want to make it clear that I don't usually counter-campaign proposals, but abortion is a very important subject for me in real life and therefore I give it quite a bit of attention within NationStates. Perhaps I give it more attention than it is due, given that this is just a game. In any event, I intend to drop it completely for the next six months. This means, in part, that I will not counter-campaign against this proposal, including if and when it goes to vote.

I also want to make it clear that the comment was entirely IC and should be viewed in context with similar IC remarks made by Eireann Fae in reference to my ambassador. It was not my intent to cause offense, and I apologize if that was the case.

[Hakio]

Our nation is very excited to support Reproductive Freedoms in passing.

[Bananaistan]

This post is OOC.

A number of players have expressed their concern to me about my counter-campaign of this proposal and my remark to Eireann Fae when it became likely that the proposal would fail to reach quorum.

I want to make it clear that I don't usually counter-campaign proposals, but abortion is a very important subject for me in real life and therefore I give it quite a bit of attention within NationStates. Perhaps I give it more attention than it is due, given that this is just a game. In any event, I intend to drop it completely for the next six months. This means, in part, that I will not counter-campaign against this proposal, including if and when it goes to vote.

I also want to make it clear that the comment was entirely IC and should be viewed in context with similar IC remarks made by Eireann Fae in reference to my ambassador. It was not my intent to cause offense, and I apologize if that was the case.

Hmmmm, I think a lot of ambassadors need to get thicker skins. I can't see any reason why shouldn't campaign against a proposal you don't like. I also don't see how the remark in question could be interpreted as anything other than a rather gentle dig, nothing offensive there at all. Even though I'd have a polar opposite view to you on the issue in question, I don't think you should feel it necessary to stay completely away from this debate for six months nor do I think that your contribution is any less worthwhile than anyone else's.

[Aligned Planets]

OOC: As a strident pro-choicer myself, who recognises the rights of pro-lifers to determine what they want to do with their own bodies, I must say that I do have difficulties with the determination and resulting definition of when life begins. I'm not qualified to have a definitive opinion on this myself, but I do believe there is a certain point between conception and live birth where an unborn child is alive. The moralities that come into play are, at this point, whether the rights of the childbearer over their own body (and by implication to terminate a pregnancy) have higher or lesser importance than the rights to life of unborn child? Now, in real life, where the child is definitively alive and able to survive outside of the womb, there are options available (to all countries, if medical spending were a priority) to have caesarians and place the child up for adoption / into care; a medical procedure not particularly any more invasive than other routine surgeries for a person who absolutely, definitively, does not want the child. The ideal solution, of course, is to have a globally-accepted view of when life begins prior to birth coupled with when an unborn child can survive outside the womb, and legalise abortions across the board up to that point. After that point, abortion would be illegal but other methods could be employed relatively quickly (ie caesarian) to satisfy the rights of the childbearer and ensure the life of the child.

NS, unfortunately, is not RL and no consensus has been reached here on the definitions required. Many players here will have strongly-held views in favour one way or another; pro-life or pro-choice. The ones who don't care either way are not really relevant to the discussion, bless them. As many here (and I accept there are some, on both sides, who are more qualified than me by far!) will not be experts, we argue from passions and understandings.

This post is OOC.In any event, I intend to drop it completely for the next six months. This means, in part, that I will not counter-campaign against this proposal, including if and when it goes to vote.

I hope that you don't drop it! Even if we disagree on the fundamentals in RL, I'm sure we can all craft together a piece of legislation that takes into consideration both sides of the argument, but allows for sovereign rights over the body whilst preserving a member state's right to legislate over the time at which life begins. Difficult, perhaps, but doable.

[Pacifist Chipmunks]

OOC: I think some of the peculiarities of this debate are a product of NS pretending to be about interactions between nations, when really it is about interactions between players. A large number of pro-lifers are not activists on the issue and can peaceably live in a country where abortion is legal, comforting themselves that they are not forced to engage in it, it is far away from them personally, and therefore their own morality isn't part of the conflict (I meant for that sentence to read neutrally...not sure if I succeeded).

However, there are no real nations in NS. What happens in Pacifist Chipmunks? Whatever I think happens. PC is all inside my head (minus perhaps a few points of gameplay mechanics). It is a figment of my mind. Therefore, the WA legislating that PC has to legalize abortion means that abortion has to occur within my mind. I feel that this hits a pro-lifer a little closer to home than it being legal within one's RL country so that other people, somewhere else can have abortions. I cannot escape PC legalizing abortions or ease myself with the thought that I have no part in it. No, it is taking place in my own head, and "my people" are taking part in it. If I have pro-life instincts, I think this aggravates me more (i.e. generates more cognitive dissonance) than legalization of abortion does in RL.

~~~~~~~~

That, and I think this proposal text is especially condescending to those who are pro-life. BEMOANING? YEARNING? DEMANDS? Really?

[Hirota]

Honestly - I haven't seen anything as unreasonable, rude and foolish as the WA.

Yeah, I don't know what I can say about that without someone apparently getting offended for being called out on being at least one of the three.

Mind you, I've been here long enough to be called all three, so maybe I fit right in.

Auralia - whilst I disagree with your beliefs on this particular matter, I'd rather have a balanced world assembly with the opinions of member states such as yourself considered, respected and valued in the whole process.

[The Dark Star Republic]

OOC: I can't remember seeing an unapproval campaign since the WA and SC queues were split. I'm quite impressed that it worked.

[Eireann Fae]

(OOC: Been out of town for a couple of days. I certainly haven't abandoned this effort, and appreciate the show of support from many players/nations, both in this thread and in my Inbox.)

Alex and Rowan appear more subdued as the approvals begin to drop, passing a blunt back and forth and nibbling on some cookies. As the proposal drops from the queue, even Niobe, the highest-ranking Human diplomat from Eireann Fae, asks if she can hit that. On hearing a snide comment from the Auralian delegate, Alexandra promptly crosses the room, knees the man in the groin, and defenestrates him^†. Rowan laughs, "Good riddance to bad rubbish."

Passing the blunt back to Alex as she returns to the front of the chamber, Niobe stands to address those gathered. "Those who have supported our endeavour thus far have our eternal gratitude. We hope you'll continue to show your support as our delegation moves forward - Epiſkœ will be submitting this again, and we plan to send ravens out across the entire world with the next campaign. Judging by the rush to the cart, some of you seem to think that we'll take back our treats," she says with a slight smile. "That's not the case - please, continue to enjoy the Faerie Cookies here in the chamber, and drinks are still on us at the Bar. Thanks to most of the world placing a high value on basic elements, money is really no object for our people, and we would not take back a gift once offered. Even those delegates that initially approved of our proposal and rescinded their votes may keep their treats and honeywine. Milþiköpa and I have to go, but we'll certainly be back for a proper celebration once this legislation is finally passed. We look forward to that day, and will be making the promised river of honeywine ready to share with you all. Thank you!"

With that, the Nubian beauty and her Faerie accomplice take their leave. Passing the blunt to her younger counterpart, Alex rises and takes the woman's place. "Unfortunately, the counter-campaign by the free-falling dipshit is not the only hitch in our plans for resubmission. We have been asked by the Powers That Be^‡ to hold off on re-submission while they go over the text of the final clause. 'Til that happens, we'll be accepting suggestions on improving the draft. Ambassador Hecklesprecht, did I hear you muttering under your breath something about the 'bemoaning' and 'yearning' text? Come on, Ambassador, go ahead and say it to my face. I promise to not toss you out a window," she says, flashing her devilish grin. "If you have any suggestions that would make the text more palatable, by all means, speak up. We can't promise to implement the changes, but we'll hear you out."

^† Godmodding be damned, take that!
^‡ Read: Ardchoille.

[Eireann Fae]

As Alex waits for a response, Rowan receives a transmission on her Codex. The girl nods in understanding, sets the device down, and rises to stand next to Alex. "It has come to our attention that there is apparently some confusion as to what the terminal clause in our proposal actually allows. Our goal is to let Member Nations encourage live birth, but not to force such decisions on individuals, nor to use ridiculous practices such as compulsory ultrasounds or mandated therapy sessions as part of such encouragement. In order to clarify our position here, we have decided that a rewording of the final clause may be necessary."

"The current Demands clause, we feel, would prevent nations from enacting laws requiring the practices aforementioned prior to an individual terminating their pregnancy. As such, we feel that encouragement to live delivery is the only point that really needs be addressed in the terminal clause. To that end, we suggest the following wording: PERMITS Member Nations to enact policies encouraging individuals to allow live delivery of their offspring, provided such policies do not ultimately hinder the individual from terminating their pregnancy. We could also add another clause to include the latter part of the current final clause, like so: SUGGESTS that Member Nations encouraging live deliveries take unwanted offspring into their own care."

"As ever, we are open to comments and criticisms on either or both of these clauses. The next draft will include a rewording of the final clause, but our current suggestions are not set in stone."

[ALMF]

As Alex waits for a response, Rowan receives a transmission on her Codex. The girl nods in understanding, sets the device down, and rises to stand next to Alex. "It has come to our attention that there is apparently some confusion as to what the terminal clause in our proposal actually allows. Our goal is to let Member Nations encourage live birth, but not to force such decisions on individuals, nor to use ridiculous practices such as compulsory ultrasounds or mandated therapy sessions as part of such encouragement. In order to clarify our position here, we have decided that a rewording of the final clause may be necessary."

"The current Demands clause, we feel, would prevent nations from enacting laws requiring the practices aforementioned prior to an individual terminating their pregnancy. As such, we feel that encouragement to live delivery is the only point that really needs be addressed in the terminal clause. To that end, we suggest the following wording: PERMITS Member Nations to enact policies encouraging individuals to allow live delivery of their offspring, provided such policies do not ultimately hinder the individual from terminating their pregnancy. We could also add another clause to include the latter part of the current final clause, like so: SUGGESTS that Member Nations encouraging live deliveries take unwanted offspring into their own care."

"As ever, we are open to comments and criticisms on either or both of these clauses. The next draft will include a rewording of the final clause, but our current suggestions are not set in stone."

The Romulun Freeholders endorse this modification and the modified bill. We will be taking over as our grandfather's ambassador to thees assemblies. Our predecessor will be remaining as our deputie and is hereby named Senator and Royal Cousin by adoption.

-- His Royal Highness Isibela Cretack Hair Apparent to Crown Prince Quellar and ambassador from the Allied Letter of Marque Freeholds to the World Asembly.

[Eireann Fae]

(OOC: I usually ignore spelling errors on this forum, as I know that it is quite international in nature, and English is generally not peoples' first languages. However, you made quite the error in your above post [at least, I assume you don't intend to insult your character...]. It should be “Her Royal Highness...”, not 'heinous'. The latter term is used when something is particularly wrong or wicked - e.g. "a heinous crime" :-)

"We are glad you approve, Princess Cretack, and have edited the two clauses into our working draft. We are still open to other comments, questions, and criticisms. However, we do not trust Martin Russell - once he recovers from his defenestration - to leave us to our affairs. It is our intention to submit this proposal again rather soon. You shall have another full day, at least, to voice your opinions on this proposal, but we make no promises for further delay after that."

[ALMF]

(OOC: I usually ignore spelling errors on this forum, as I know that it is quite international in nature, and English is generally not peoples' first languages. However, you made quite the error in your above post [at least, I assume you don't intend to insult your character...]. It should be “Her Royal Highness...”, not 'heinous'. The latter term is used when something is particularly wrong or wicked - e.g. "a heinous crime" :-)

"We are glad you approve, Princess Cretack, and have edited the two clauses into our working draft. We are still open to other comments, questions, and criticisms. However, we do not trust Martin Russell - once he recovers from his defenestration - to leave us to our affairs. It is our intention to submit this proposal again rather soon. You shall have another full day, at least, to voice your opinions on this proposal, but we make no promises for further delay after that."

OCC: Romulun doesn't have genders in cumin use language at all so the gender mismatch was intentional as a defect of tranclation.

[Applebania]

The Applebanian delegate walks into the chamber of the debate. He looked rather young to be a world assembly delegate, and for an entire region of fifteen nations, no less! However, he speaks to the delegate of Eireann Fae.
"You have the full support of the Empire of Applebania in this endeavour to ensure reproductive freedoms to all. The people of Applebania have always been pro-choice."
The Applebanian delegate sits down in his chair.