[DEFEATED] Liberate NAZI EUROPE

[Sciongrad]

For starters, this isn't the Security Council trying to eliminate an ideology and National Socialism isn't just any old respectable political ideology.

Yes, it is. The purpose of this resolution, by your own admission, is to weaken a fascist region on the basis of its ideology. And, in all candor, it doesn't matter how respectable the ideology is, there's not tangible evidence that supports something of this magnitude aside from their ideology, which would set a precedent for Security Council initiated invasions.

This resolution is a strategic attempt to open NAZI EUROPE, which has been a menace to interregional peace and goodwill throughout its history, to potential invasion. The hope is that the threat of potential invasion will deter NAZI EUROPE and its allies from engaging in aggressive and destructive actions against other regions because they will be preoccupied with the defense of their home region. That goal is perfectly compatible with the Security Council's mission to spread interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary. The two condemnations that this Security Council has passed against NAZI EUROPE have done nothing to force it to adhere to acceptable standards of conduct set by the interregional community; perhaps this will.

Don't give me that. There are plenty of other regions that cause more harm to whatever you consider "interregional peace and goodwill" to be in one month than Nazi Europe has in its existence. This is solely on the basis of their ideology. If you don't like Nazis, that's too bad, because attacking one Nazi-themed region will have a negligible impact on their current, and future influence and existence. I'm curious as to why AntiFa hasn't been targeted if you're so interested in maintaining interregional goodwill, considering they've raided hundreds of regions, under the guise of an ideological inquisition - aside from the opposing ideologies, the two are nearly identical.

The problem with this argument is that it assumes that all defenders are opposed to all invasions. While that may be true of some (perhaps even many) defenders, it's not true of others. I believe that empowering other regions to invade NAZI EUROPE will serve to deter them and potentially their allies from engaging in acts of aggression and regional destruction against innocent founderless regions and their natives, and I would much rather do everything I can to protect the latter than adhere to an absolutist ideology that demands respect for the rights of Nazi natives who would invade innocent regions and destroy innocent natives' homes.

I wasn't questioning the existence of raider-sympathizing defenders - I was explaining the logic behind SkyDip's incredulity.

ETA: Just before somebody says something - I think Nazism is the most atrocious ideology ever to be conceived, but I don't have any right telling people what they can and can't believe, and neither should the Security Council.

[Sardine World]

i wonder how many people will approve this

[Demphor]

The 2nd Demphorian Empire says No to this proposal, as Nazi Europe has officially died and therefore must be subjugated to become a less extreme and evil region. The World Assembly must allow this raider region to die as it has already been condemned by the Security Council.

[Imperium Nova Roma]

As former Fuhrer of Nazi Europe- Laos Refugees, legally named by Oh My Days, I support this decision.

The gov is ran by schemers who were BANNED AND EJECTED due to their trouble rousing ways.

Oust them out.

[Captain Woodhouse]

This has nothing, zero, nada to do with the UDL

Are you moonlighting as a raider along with a few other UDLers now?

When do you figure this has something to with the UDL? You and Laos are UDL, yeah? Not long ago, at least three other UDL members tried to infiltrate Nazi Europe to destroy the region. One of the reasons the pw is in place is to protect it from UDL moonlighters.

I just want to point out that in this case -- possibly for the first time, I'm not sure -- the liberation resolution is openly being used to enable military action. In other words, this proposal would permanently remove NAZI EUROPE's password protection so that other regions can invade it at will given the threat it has posed and continues to pose to interregional peace and goodwill.

Outline the threat that NE countinues to pose to interregional peace and goodwill. Evidence, Cormac. NE is a vulnerable, founderless region trying to remain afloat.

By now everyone should be on to the fact that you can't liberate founderless regions without using the Security Council. It appears that you're too incompetent to raid a founderless region so you want the SC to do your dirty work.

[Cormac Stark]

Yes, it is. The purpose of this resolution, by your own admission, is to weaken a fascist region on the basis of its ideology. And, in all candor, it doesn't matter how respectable the ideology is, there's not tangible evidence that supports something of this magnitude aside from their ideology, which would set a precedent for Security Council initiated invasions.

NAZI EUROPE's ideology is not the sole basis for this liberation resolution, though it is part of the basis. As the resolution itself indicates, NAZI EUROPE is being targeted for a history of threatening, aggressive and destructive behavior toward other regions and hostility toward the interregional community as represented by the World Assembly. For evidence of that, see: Condemn NAZI EUROPE.

Don't give me that. There are plenty of other regions that cause more harm to whatever you consider "interregional peace and goodwill" to be in one month than Nazi Europe has in its existence. This is solely on the basis of their ideology. If you don't like Nazis, that's too bad, because attacking one Nazi-themed region will have a negligible impact on their current, and future influence and existence. I'm curious as to why AntiFa hasn't been targeted if you're so interested in maintaining interregional goodwill, considering they've raided hundreds of regions, under the guise of an ideological inquisition - aside from the opposing ideologies, the two are nearly identical.

There are indeed other regions that pose a greater threat to interregional peace and goodwill, but NAZI EUROPE is unique in that it is founderless. You mention Antifa, and what makes NAZI EUROPE a target for this liberation resolution rather than Antifa is precisely that the latter has a founder and the former does not. While passing liberation resolutions against regions with founders may have some symbolic value, it would have no strategic military value. This liberation resolution does. And I would point out that this resolution may deter other regions allied with NAZI EUROPE that pose a greater threat, such as The Greater German Reich.

The 2nd Demphorian Empire says No to this proposal, as Nazi Europe has officially died and therefore must be subjugated to become a less extreme and evil region. The World Assembly must allow this raider region to die as it has already been condemned by the Security Council.

I would ask that you read the resolution again since you seem to be missing the point, unless I'm misunderstanding you. The point of the resolution is not to protect NAZI EUROPE but to enable potential invasion of it.

As former Fuhrer of Nazi Europe- Laos Refugees, legally named by Oh My Days, I support this decision.

The gov is ran by schemers who were BANNED AND EJECTED due to their trouble rousing ways.

Oust them out.

Thank you for your support LR.

<snip>

I'll not be responding to the residents of NAZI EUROPE or any other fascist region in this thread, except to say this: You are responsible for the destructive history of your region. Now you can face the consequences.

[Captain Woodhouse]

There are indeed other regions that pose a greater threat to interregional peace and goodwill, but NAZI EUROPE is unique in that it is founderless.

Attaboy, Cormac. Pick on a founderless region that's not been a threat to any other region in a very long time. Did someone mention hypocrisy?

[Mallorea and Riva]

Welcome back to the side of the raiders General Stark. Fascinating use of a Liberation proposal to attempt to kill a region. I think this will prove to be very interesting. Against.

[Cormac Stark]

Welcome back to the side of the raiders General Stark. Fascinating use of a Liberation proposal to attempt to kill a region. I think this will prove to be very interesting. Against.

I'm not interested in having the debate about whether or not voting to enable military action against a region that has destroyed other regions makes one a raider, but I will say that I continue to consider myself very much a defender. I believe this resolution will make it easier to defend innocent founderless regions against NAZI EUROPE and its allies by enabling counterattacks. I also did not advocate killing a region; I do not advocate or condone griefing against any region.

I agree that this will probably prove quite interesting. May I ask why you're against? You're entitled to be, of course, I'm just curious if it's raider unity or some other reason.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Welcome back to the side of the raiders General Stark. Fascinating use of a Liberation proposal to attempt to kill a region. I think this will prove to be very interesting. Against.

I'm not interested in having the debate about whether or not voting to enable military action against a region that has destroyed other regions makes one a raider, but I will say that I continue to consider myself very much a defender. I believe this resolution will make it easier to defend innocent founderless regions against NAZI EUROPE and its allies by enabling counterattacks. I also did not advocate killing a region; I do not advocate or condone griefing against any region.

I agree that this will probably prove quite interesting. May I ask why you're against? You're entitled to be, of course, I'm just curious if it's raider unity or some other reason.

Lashing out at a region which is currently dormant is unlikely to make the situation any better than it currently is. You don't condone griefing, yet you strip away the only protection that region has against griefing? Not me, not others, you.

I am against because NE has a history of being a raider region and I hope to one day see it make a comeback. I don't care what their ideologies are, I'm sure there are some nazis in there but judging by their RMB I rather doubt that they're anything other than people in it for laughs. I know there are raiders who disagree with me and that's fine. They can do as they wish. NE may no longer fall under the protection of raider unity for some of us, for me I'd rather sit back and enjoy what they do.

[Sciongrad]

Welcome back to the side of the raiders General Stark. Fascinating use of a Liberation proposal to attempt to kill a region. I think this will prove to be very interesting. Against.

I'm not interested in having the debate about whether or not voting to enable military action against a region that has destroyed other regions makes one a raider, but I will say that I continue to consider myself very much a defender. I believe this resolution will make it easier to defend innocent founderless regions against NAZI EUROPE and its allies by enabling counterattacks. I also did not advocate killing a region; I do not advocate or condone griefing against any region.

First off, there is no debate as to whether this makes you a raider-sympathizer, because it does, regardless of whether or not this devolves into an argument regarding such. You're removing the only protection NE has between being greifed, all while feigning that this protects all regions from some horrid, imminent fate. Secondly, your plan to protect founderless regions is to attack one (that isn't really capable of causing any harm as it is)? You can plug your ears, and say that this is to promote inter-regional goodwill and whatnot, but you know that isn't true - you have a personal vendetta against Nazis, and you're using the SC as a tool to stomp them out. This sets a truly dangerous precedent, and it's not one anyone wants to see. The SC is already useless to a great extent - it doesn't need to be destructive too.

[Galiantus]

The leadership at Glass Gallows is up in arms over this resolution. We stand in firm opposition to any attempt to violate the sovereignty of a region solely based on the possibility they could be a threat to other regions. NE is an active region with a strong ideological point of view, valuable to NationStates. Although we disagree with Nazis, we respect their right to assemble in a region where they can support one another in their beliefs. We see this resolution as an example of how much potential evil the WA is capible of causing and will stand with all regions and nations oppressed by the influence of the WA.

This resolution is not justifiable on the premise of "the ends justify the means" because 1) NE does not currently pose a danger to other regions, 2) any damage they may have caused is insignificant compared to the actions of other organizations like TBR, TBH and Anitfa, and 3) although the GA is essentially the thought police of the mafia of the oligarchs of the world, this is obviously an attempt to use the SC in a similar fasion. The only reason NE would become the target of this sort of attack is because of its ideology. We strongly urge the leaders of the world to guard against the SC from becoming a second front for the violation of National Sovereignty.

This proposal is a blatent attack on the sovereignty, culture, and natives of an essentially harmless region. We are ready to take military action against the aims of this proposal at all levels, and will fight tooth and nail to keep the sinister aims of this proposal from ever becoming a reality.

Opposed.

[Cormac Stark]

The leadership at Glass Gallows is up in arms over this resolution. We stand in firm opposition to any attempt to violate the sovereignty of a region solely based on the possibility they could be a threat to other regions.

This resolution is not based on the mere possibility that NAZI EUROPE could be a threat to other regions, but on the fact that it has committed acts of aggression and regional destruction against other regions and will no doubt do so again if presented with an opportunity.

NE is an active region with a strong ideological point of view, valuable to NationStates.

Going to have to stop you right there. There is nothing about a region called NAZI EUROPE that is valuable to NationStates. Nothing.

This resolution is not justifiable on the premise of "the ends justify the means" because 1) NE does not currently pose a danger to other regions,

Only because of its small and relatively inactive population, not because it has had any change of heart or mind regarding its historical acts of aggression and destruction. All it would take for NAZI EUROPE to become a danger to other regions again is a little recruitment and military effort. This is not to mention that the regions with which NAZI EUROPE has chosen to align itself still pose an extreme threat to other regions.

2) any damage they may have caused is insignificant compared to the actions of other organizations like TBR, TBH and Anitfa,

As noted earlier: The Black Riders, The Black Hawks and Antifa are all foundered regions; they cannot be targeted by a liberation resolution for anything but symbolic purposes. The situation is different with NAZI EUROPE.

This proposal is a blatent attack on the sovereignty, culture, and natives of an essentially harmless region. We are ready to take military action against the aims of this proposal at all levels, and will fight tooth and nail to keep the sinister aims of this proposal from ever becoming a reality.

Opposed.

"An essentially harmless region"? That "essentially harmless region" has destroyed numerous regions over the course of its history, as partially detailed by SC#37. That "essentially harmless region" espouses in its name an ideology that encourages the hatred of and violence against people based on their race, ethnicity, nationality and sexual orientation as well as gender-based oppression.

I recognize that Glass Gallows is opposed to the World Assembly, but let's not dress up opposition to this resolution based on your anti-WA ideology in the trappings of protecting the sovereignty of an innocent founderless region. NAZI EUROPE may be founderless but it is far from innocent.

[Svarttjern]

As former Fuhrer of Nazi Europe- Laos Refugees, legally named by Oh My Days, I support this decision.

The gov is ran by schemers who were BANNED AND EJECTED due to their trouble rousing ways.

Oust them out.

I seriously laughed at the irony this. You of ALL people. Hahaha.

Tell me, Laos, weren't you ousted after it was discovered your entire reign was just a plot to open NE for invasion? I seem to remember you deleting our forums and everything associated therein.

On a more pertinent note, OPPOSED.

[Pseudocholinesterase]

So let me get this straight.

When someday what my region believes in becomes undesirable for the majority and this resolution gets in, I run the risk of having the region invaded?

Let every region be.

[Kleinekatzen]

The precedent behind this scares me.

This covers my reaction to this proposal.
I for one will not open Pandora's Box.
So I will NOT support this by endorsing & will vote no should it make it to vote.

[Aslania]

The use of Nazi already indicates a very bloodthirsty intent to invade regions. I don't like it, and I don't trust it. It comes with the term Nazi and people acting as if it's no big deal. The Nazi's are evil, every bone in their body is evil, and they should not be allowed to exist in NationStates.

[Rupture Farms co]

As former Fuhrer of Nazi Europe- Laos Refugees, legally named by Oh My Days, I support this decision.

The gov is ran by schemers who were BANNED AND EJECTED due to their trouble rousing ways.

Oust them out.

That's doozy right there Laos, you hurt my brain .

Against.

[Bundabunda]

I overall like the idea. But the problem I have is this:
The thing with undoing a password would have bad repercussions. Wouldn't it just turn NE into a Warzone, unless a repeal was put in by a group? How long would that take, theoretically? In the very least, 5 days after the group comes in.
For that reason, I'm still undecided.

[Cormac Stark]

I overall like the idea. But the problem I have is this:
The thing with undoing a password would have bad repercussions. Wouldn't it just turn NE into a Warzone, unless a repeal was put in by a group? How long would that take, theoretically? In the very least, 5 days after the group comes in.
For that reason, I'm still undecided.

You're correct. While the liberation resolution would open NAZI EUROPE to invasion, it would also make the forcible refounding of the region without repeal of the liberation resolution exceedingly difficult. To those like myself who are opposed to region griefing, that's a feature rather than a bug -- it would allow the invasion of NAZI EUROPE but simultaneously make the most extreme form of griefing virtually impossible.

From this perspective, that basically leaves two options:

1) Vote for this resolution, which will open the region to potential invasion indefinitely but likely prevent forcible refounding.

2) Vote against this resolution, running the risk that NAZI EUROPE will be impenetrable forever or, worse, that it will be refounded by its residents and once again become a foundered region intent on aggression and regional destruction.

Given the risks associated with the second option, I would encourage you to vote for this resolution. I recognize that anti-fascist forces would very much like to refound NAZI EUROPE, but if the password stays up forever you may never even be able to invade it, and if it's refounded by its residents... well, the last thing the NationStates world needs is NAZI EUROPE restored to its glory days.

[Rupture Farms co]

Do you even know what "the glory days" we're stark? Way don't reply because you won't and that's because you can't.

[The Gregorach]

This is pathetic Cormac. Not that I expected much of you after you betrayed the Imperialist cause and tried to usurp the throne of Asgard. Now you, who now call yourself a defender, want to take the only protection our region has based on your unreasoning hatred of anything you can associate with National Socialism in any way, shape, or form. You are no defender, but a hypocrite, a traitor, and a would-be usurper.

[Cormac Stark]

This is pathetic Cormac. Not that I expected much of you after you betrayed the Imperialist cause and tried to usurp the throne of Asgard. Now you, who now call yourself a defender, want to take the only protection our region has based on your unreasoning hatred of anything you can associate with National Socialism in any way, shape, or form. You are no defender, but a hypocrite, a traitor, and a would-be usurper.

I'm fairly sure that my hatred of National Socialism is fairly reasonable. Also, wub you too.

By the way, who exactly are you in The Land of Kings and Emperors and Kingdom of Denmark, just out of curiosity, and do they know they have a resident of NAZI EUROPE in their region? Athelstan MacGregor, possibly?

[Everbeek]

I remember the time you were against UDL-member-written Liberations. And those were written to help the natives. This one is intended to grief a region.

[Cormac Stark]

I remember the time you were against UDL-member-written Liberations. And those were written to help the natives. This one is intended to grief a region.

This one is intended to open a region to potential invasion, not to grief it. I have stated in this thread my unequivocal opposition to all region griefing.