[DEFEATED] Repeal "Rights and Duties of WA States"

[Glen-Rhodes]

Oh, whatever Douria. That is just a load of nonsense. You don't get to steal a proposal and say it's okay because you don't like TG stamps. If you think spending money to advertise a resolution is "cheating the system," bring it up with [violet]. It doesn't make your actions any less unethical.

[The Dourian Embassy]

Oh, whatever Douria. That is just a load of nonsense. You don't get to steal a proposal and say it's okay because you don't like TG stamps. If you think spending money to advertise a resolution is "cheating the system," bring it up with [violet]. It doesn't make your actions any less unethical.

Who is complaining about stamps? Just because you don't accept that other people found other aspects of the previous campaign dirty, doesn't make them clean.


Let me reiterate the permission I was given:

I've already made arrangements with Afforess, but I suppose you could technically do it instead if you wanted, since the proposal is public domain.

In any event, I'm done with the GA (and probably the game), so feel free to do whatever you want.

Auralia said I could do whatever I wanted with his proposal. I did.

[The Eternal Kawaii]

The only reason I had to lie to you about my support was because you didn't want a straight up and down vote, you wanted the opportunity to cheat the system again.

Is there a medic in the Chambers? We need a professional to remove the knife from Auralia's back.

Send some popcorn around while you're at it--this is the best entertainment we've seen in the chambers in years.

[Araraukar]

Is there a medic in the Chambers? We need a professional to remove the knife from Auralia's back.

Only if it can be replaced with a bigger one. Our medic is... well, she used to be an interrogation officer back in the day.

[Wrapper]

I must say, the hypocrisy of many members of this Assembly is saddening but not surprising. I am condemned when I deceive the Assembly by submitting a self-commendation

Well, no, technically you weren't condemned (alas).

but Douria is congratulated when he deceives me by submitting my repeal text with my name on it under false pretenses?

Apparently two wrongs do make a right, and cheating the cheater deserves a pat on the back. Frankly, I agree with you here, that cheating is cheating, and you both ought to be condemned. Still doesn't make it right what you did. It's a combination of the deceitful WA flag and the TG campaign that carried the repeal's passage last time. With neither... what you see is what you get.

For what it is worth, I would have revoked Douria's permission to use the text of my proposal and to credit me as co-author had I known what he was planning. If that means that Douria's actions constitute plagiarism or some other violation of the rules, then I would expect appropriate action to be taken by the mods.

Too late for that. You gave permission. We all saw it. And it isn't like Douria amended the text to make it less appealing to voters. Going just on the merits, and not some underhanded (WA flag) and IMO questionable yet strictly legal (TG campaigning) tactics, the repeal deserves to fail, for the reasons outlined above.

And any calls for Douria to be banned/ejected from the WA is waaaaaay off base. Auralia wasn't banned/ejected for the WA flag deception, nor for the self-commendation (neither of which are against the rules), it was for WA multi-ing (which is explicitly against the rules). Douria, while underhanded and sneaky and a liar (i.e. a politician), has done nothing illegal.

Sorry you aren't getting your new charter, or your "peacekeeping" forces (not really).

[Glen-Rhodes]

Who is complaining about stamps? Just because you don't accept that other people found other aspects of the previous campaign dirty, doesn't make them clean.

You said you had to lie to Auralia about your intentions, in order to prevent him from "cheating the system" again. He can't "cheat the system" in any of the other ways you think he did, if you are the one submitting the repeal. So this is obviously about him using stamps to deliver a very successful campaign.

You've gone through all this trouble just to troll Auralia. This isn't about ensuring Rights & Duties stays in place. Nobody was planning on reviving the repeal until you resubmitted it. This was all about you wanting to humiliate Auralia by seeing his most prized repeal fall out of the sky in flames. It's pure unethical and selfish behavior.

[Yelda]

It's pure unethical and selfish behavior.

You should probably condemn him.

[Defwa]

Who is complaining about stamps? Just because you don't accept that other people found other aspects of the previous campaign dirty, doesn't make them clean.

You said you had to lie to Auralia about your intentions, in order to prevent him from "cheating the system" again. He can't "cheat the system" in any of the other ways you think he did, if you are the one submitting the repeal. So this is obviously about him using stamps to deliver a very successful campaign.

You've gone through all this trouble just to troll Auralia. This isn't about ensuring Rights & Duties stays in place. Nobody was planning on reviving the repeal until you resubmitted it. This was all about you wanting to humiliate Auralia by seeing his most prized repeal fall out of the sky in flames. It's pure unethical and selfish behavior.

The original repeal operated on a cheap trick. Nobody is complaining about the TGing. Its effect was minimal. The problem was impersonation of the WA.
Douria has done nothing to hurt this proposal via his submission. I don't see why we're even talking about it. If [vote nay] in the title is single handedly destroying the repeal attempt, then it must have been on really weak ground to begin with.
and contrary to your claim, there were intentions to resubmit this repeal as evidenced by TGs quoted in this very thread

[Normlpeople]

The original repeal operated on a cheap trick.

"This. If there was so much support for a repeal of this particular piece of legislation, without the deception, then the current vote would reflect that. I suspect the amount of people swayed by the deception of the official looking body is far greater than initially thought."

The only reason I had to lie to you about my support was because you didn't want a straight up and down vote, you wanted the opportunity to cheat the system again.

Is there a medic in the Chambers? We need a professional to remove the knife from Auralia's back.

Send some popcorn around while you're at it--this is the best entertainment we've seen in the chambers in years.

"On this, I must agree..."

[Defwa]

The original repeal operated on a cheap trick.

"This. If there was so much support for a repeal of this particular piece of legislation, without the deception, then the current vote would reflect that. I suspect the amount of people swayed by the deception of the official looking body is far greater than initially thought."

Is there a medic in the Chambers? We need a professional to remove the knife from Auralia's back.

Send some popcorn around while you're at it--this is the best entertainment we've seen in the chambers in years.

"On this, I must agree..."

OOC: Drama booooomb. Makes me kinda want to start a NS news rag

[Mallorea and Riva]

If you were foolish enough to partner up with either myself or the Dourian delegation to begin with then you would have brought the disaster upon yourself, just as the Auralian Delegation did.

Oh, Mall. Thank you for publicly recognizing, at last, that you deserve to be ostracized and that nobody should give any regard to what you say, since you simply cannot be trusted to be honest with us.

As much fun as it can undoubtedly be to take my comments out of the context in which they were written in a desperate attempt to discredit me, I would prefer if you would refrain from doing so in the future. My comment was clearly directed at how silly it would be for GR (or you by implication) to trust me with this particular project considering my well known stance on the issue.

To GR: Neither Kenny nor Yelda shaped me in terms of my NS development, I was who I am long before I came to AO. I grew up in Dharma, remember?

If either of you believe that rules have been broken then you should know by now that accusations of rulebreaking belong in the moderation forum or in a GHR, not slung around in here.

[Separatist Peoples]

"This. If there was so much support for a repeal of this particular piece of legislation, without the deception, then the current vote would reflect that. I suspect the amount of people swayed by the deception of the official looking body is far greater than initially thought."



"On this, I must agree..."

OOC: Drama booooomb. Makes me kinda want to start a NS news rag

OOC: Do it!

IC:

You've gone through all this trouble just to troll Auralia. This isn't about ensuring Rights & Duties stays in place. Nobody was planning on reviving the repeal until you resubmitted it. This was all about you wanting to humiliate Auralia by seeing his most prized repeal fall out of the sky in flames. It's pure unethical and selfish behavior.

"The Auralian delegation humiliated itself. This, frankly, brilliant move by the Dourian Embassy managed to prove, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the first attempt to repeal GAR#2 was supported by underhanded tactics. If that hurts some Auralian feelings, then I'd say that karma was served."

[Hakio]

WA Ambassador of Hakio, Sia Hedishi, reenters the conference room.

"Sorry, I'm back, I was just smoking some celebratory marijuana." Sia leans back in her chair awkwardly as her fellow diplomats give her a strange look. "As for the Auralia's response to Douria, we think that they acted completely within their own rights to do as they did.... Perhaps if Auralia hadn't attempted to commend themselves for no reason-- hold on one second--" Sia leans her head down so her nose is below the desk as she makes a snorting sound. She brings her head back up with bits of white powder on her nose, "Then Auralia wouldn't have been having this problem of putting his resolutions in the hands of others and GAR #2 would have surely been repealed. So no, I do not think it is Auralia's place in these conference halls to declare the fault of this repeal's failure on any nation other than their own."

[Glen-Rhodes]

It's pure unethical and selfish behavior.

You should probably condemn him.

He would welcome it. If it would bring about actual consequences, I would do it. But it doesn't look like anybody in this part of the game cares all that much about having a standard of decent behavior.

Most of the people applauding Douria were the same people who got the mods to delete a popular resolution after it passed, because, by golly, they would not stand for such deceptive practices! This game is still filled with hypocrites acting like their behavior is acceptable because it's "politics." What I realized long ago is that these people are simply hiding behind internet anonymity, and acting the same way any other troll on the internet acts when there's no consequences for their actions.

Somehow, a culture without ethics and standards developed in the GA. People went beyond playing fair and started playing dirty, and because there haven't been any consequences, they think it's the way things should be. This game isn't about "politicking" or having a serious debate about policy proposals. At it's core, for many of its participants, the GA is about personal gratification. It's about stabbing each other in the back. It's about humiliating your political opponents. Bending the rules and using the mods as weapons, no matter the long term consequences. That drove away the decent players, especially the ones who actually had knowledge of policy. What Douria did is simply the culmination of a toxic style of gameplay. This type of behavior will continue to drive people away, until this game becomes a shell of what it used to be.

And people like Mallorea and Riva will revel in it, even as they become kings of an empty game.


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[Chester Pearson]

You should probably condemn him.

He would welcome it. If it would bring about actual consequences, I would do it. But it doesn't look like anybody in this part of the game cares all that much about having a standard of decent behavior.


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Internet anonymity at its finest....

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

You should probably condemn him.

He would welcome it. If it would bring about actual consequences, I would do it. But it doesn't look like anybody in this part of the game cares all that much about having a standard of decent behavior.

Most of the people applauding Douria were the same people who got the mods to delete a popular resolution after it passed, because, by golly, they would not stand for such deceptive practices! This game is still filled with hypocrites acting like their behavior is acceptable because it's "politics." What I realized long ago is that these people are simply hiding behind internet anonymity, and acting the same way any other troll on the internet acts when there's no consequences for their actions.

Somehow, a culture without ethics and standards developed in the GA. People went beyond playing fair and started playing dirty, and because there haven't been any consequences, they think it's the way things should be. This game isn't about "politicking" or having a serious debate about policy proposals. At it's core, for many of its participants, the GA is about personal gratification. It's about stabbing each other in the back. It's about humiliating your political opponents. Bending the rules and using the mods as weapons, no matter the long term consequences. That drove away the decent players, especially the ones who actually had knowledge of policy. What Douria did is simply the culmination of a toxic style of gameplay. This type of behavior will continue to drive people away, until this game becomes a shell of what it used to be.

Yeah, uh-huh. It's also apparently about high-handed superiority and vain declarations to how much better you are than everyone else. Plus the mind-boggling irony of an R&Der presuming to look down his nose on other players' supposed duplicity and dirty dealings.

[Unibot III]

You should probably condemn him.

He would welcome it. If it would bring about actual consequences, I would do it. But it doesn't look like anybody in this part of the game cares all that much about having a standard of decent behavior.

Most of the people applauding Douria were the same people who got the mods to delete a popular resolution after it passed, because, by golly, they would not stand for such deceptive practices! This game is still filled with hypocrites acting like their behavior is acceptable because it's "politics." What I realized long ago is that these people are simply hiding behind internet anonymity, and acting the same way any other troll on the internet acts when there's no consequences for their actions.

Somehow, a culture without ethics and standards developed in the GA. People went beyond playing fair and started playing dirty, and because there haven't been any consequences, they think it's the way things should be. This game isn't about "politicking" or having a serious debate about policy proposals. At it's core, for many of its participants, the GA is about personal gratification. It's about stabbing each other in the back. It's about humiliating your political opponents. Bending the rules and using the mods as weapons, no matter the long term consequences. That drove away the decent players, especially the ones who actually had knowledge of policy. What Douria did is simply the culmination of a toxic style of gameplay. This type of behavior will continue to drive people away, until this game becomes a shell of what it used to be.

And people like Mallorea and Riva will revel in it, even as they become kings of an empty game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well said, mate. Well said.

Yeah, uh-huh. It's also apparently about high-handed superiority and vain declarations to how much better you are than everyone else. Plus the mind-boggling irony of an R&Der presuming to look down his nose on other players' supposed duplicity and dirty dealings.

Glen-Rhodes is just as much of a WA Author as you are, Kenny. When was the last time you wrote and drafted an actual proposal? Glen's been a champion for less duplicity and corruption in Gameplay, the fact that he is calling for it in the WA too is not hypocrisy as you suggest, but consistency.

[Separatist Peoples]

You should probably condemn him.

Most of the people applauding Douria were the same people who got the mods to delete a popular resolution after it passed, because, by golly, they would not stand for such deceptive practices!

The appeal to the moderators was done out of a genuine Branding concern. I should know, I submitted the GHR. If there hadn't been a blatant violation, it wouldn't have gotten pulled. I would have done it had I supported the resolution in question, too. Don't paint with such a broad brush, buddy.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Yeah, uh-huh. It's also apparently about high-handed superiority and vain declarations to how much better you are than everyone else. Plus the mind-boggling irony of an R&Der presuming to look down his nose on other players' supposed duplicity and dirty dealings.

I'm glad you bring that up, because it sets up an excellent example of how this part of the game developed to be so different than other parts. Deception is accepted in Gameplay to the extent that is a mutual exercise targeted towards thwarting specific military objectives. NS Gameplay has actually developed a robust ethical code outlining when it is and is not acceptable to engage in duplicitous behavior. Pretending to ally with somebody, to act with a shared interest, and then betraying them out of pure malice is a violation of the ethical code and comes with serious consequences. People lose trust in you and won't want to deal with you again. In a game where your power is a function of others' willingness to work with you, being ostracized is a death sentence.

There is no equivalent code in this part of the game. It's "anything goes," because nobody has to work together to pass a resolution, which is the ultimate goal of the game. Everybody can be untrustworthy in this environment, so without voluntarily working together to ostracize an author, there aren't consequences to poor behavior. There used to be standards here. There used to be some level of sportsmanlike conduct expected by and from authors. Then the vitriol came. Then it became very easy to bypass debate altogether with improved campaign methods. Then came the rules lawyering and manipulating mods into crushing your enemies. I participated in it, and so did you and most of your friends. Then I realized it wasn't worth it all the energy, when I spent most of my time defending against personal attacks and opportunistic legality reviews. Now we're at actual backstabbing, defrauding players into letting you steal their ideas, just so you can watch with self-congratulation at how you really got! your enemy.

This isn't about ideas. This isn't about Douria thinking Rights & Duties is a good or bad resolution, or about an intellectual debate on the No Army Rule. This is about an environment where people don't like each other, so it's okay to do anything to undercut the person instead of the policy. If that's the game you want to play, Kenny, have fun while it lasts. My experience is that people burn out faster that way, if they're even interested in playing in the first place once they see how people act.

This is pretty much all have to say about this, now. I was starting to get interested in the WA again. Gruenberg got involved after a stormy exit, so I thought maybe things were better. Turns out it's not; things are actually worse. So I guess I'll just stick to NS Gameplay and GCR politics.

[Hakio]

Most of the people applauding Douria were the same people who got the mods to delete a popular resolution after it passed, because, by golly, they would not stand for such deceptive practices!

The appeal to the moderators was done out of a genuine Branding concern. I should know, I submitted the GHR. If there hadn't been a blatant violation, it wouldn't have gotten pulled. I would have done it had I supported the resolution in question, too. Don't paint with such a broad brush, buddy.

"Also it wasn't a resolution it was a repeal. Hell, I know the difference and I'm high."

WA Ambassador
~Sia Hedishi

[Hakio]

You should probably condemn him.

He would welcome it. If it would bring about actual consequences, I would do it. But it doesn't look like anybody in this part of the game cares all that much about having a standard of decent behavior.

"This is politics. You gotta accept it for what it is; dirty and cruel. Hell, I do suppose it was wrong of me to make such a fuss about Auralia's deceptive campaign now doesn't it? Underhanded tactics have always been part of politics and no rigidly enforced guidelines are going to fix anything."

Most of the people applauding Douria were the same people who got the mods to delete a popular resolution after it passed, because, by golly, they would not stand for such deceptive practices! This game is still filled with hypocrites acting like their behavior is acceptable because it's "politics." What I realized long ago is that these people are simply hiding behind internet anonymity, and acting the same way any other troll on the internet acts when there's no consequences for their actions.

"What? We are not discussing this on the internet, I'm right here. Wait what if this is all just a huge game... run by a loser 16 year old atheist because no one listens to his political theories...? I need to stop smoking so much, I'm speaking nonsense."

Somehow, a culture without ethics and standards developed in the GA. People went beyond playing fair and started playing dirty, and because there haven't been any consequences, they think it's the way things should be. This game isn't about "politicking" or having a serious debate about policy proposals. At it's core, for many of its participants, the GA is about personal gratification. It's about stabbing each other in the back. It's about humiliating your political opponents. Bending the rules and using the mods as weapons, no matter the long term consequences. That drove away the decent players, especially the ones who actually had knowledge of policy. What Douria did is simply the culmination of a toxic style of gameplay. This type of behavior will continue to drive people away, until this game becomes a shell of what it used to be.

"Tell me again about how it was so much better back in the 'old days' why don't you? This is politics and we all have agendas. As the very basic resolutions faded away things got more complicated you see, think of it like evolution. Nowadays, everybody thinks they need to legislate their agenda on others. It's not what we try to do, but hell, it's the way things are."

And people from Mallorea and Riva will revel in it, even as they become kings of an empty game.

"And us because, at the end of the day, we can bitch and complain about their rival agenda all day. We're not going to try to actively get rid of it. But, when we see that it fails we can revel in it as a victory for our agenda. There is some truth to what you say however, it appears we have entered the Age of Ideological Banning, because, since all the simple stuff is done, we need to work with specifics now."

WA Ambassador
~Sia Hedishi

[Separatist Peoples]

The appeal to the moderators was done out of a genuine Branding concern. I should know, I submitted the GHR. If there hadn't been a blatant violation, it wouldn't have gotten pulled. I would have done it had I supported the resolution in question, too. Don't paint with such a broad brush, buddy.

"Also it wasn't a resolution it was a repeal. Hell, I know the difference and I'm high."

WA Ambassador
~Sia Hedishi

Repeals are resolutions...

[Hakio]

"Also it wasn't a resolution it was a repeal. Hell, I know the difference and I'm high."

WA Ambassador
~Sia Hedishi

Repeals are resolutions...

Sia Hedishi looks up from her bong with a stoned smile.
"Since when?"

[Separatist Peoples]

Sia Hedishi looks up from her bong with a stoned smile.
"Since when?"

Always.

[Applebania]

Claire pulls out a shotgun and blows the Dourian delegate's brains out.
"Right! Now, let's get back to debating the repeal, rather than the actions of the Dourian delegacy."