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The U.S. Constitution and Social Contracts: Garbage?

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Bendira
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The U.S. Constitution and Social Contracts: Garbage?

Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:09 am

So I finally got around to reading No Treason again by Lysander Spooner, and decided to post some really good quotes from his work here for discussion:


On Taxation:
For this reason, whoever desires liberty, should understand these vital facts, viz.: 1. That every man who puts money into the hands of a "government" (so called), puts into its hands a sword which will be used against himself, to extort more money from him, and also to keep him in subjection to its arbitrary will. 2. That those who will take his money, without his consent, in the first place, will use it for his further robbery and enslavement, if he presumes to resist their demands in the future. 3. That it is a perfect absurdity to suppose that any body of men would ever take a man's money without his consent, for any such object as they profess to take it for, viz., that of protecting him; for why should they wish to protect him, if he does not wish them to do so? To suppose that they would do so, is just as absurd as it would be to suppose that they would take his money without his consent, for the purpose of buying food or clothing for him, when he did not want it. 4. If a man wants "protection," he is competent to make his own bargains for it; and nobody has any occasion to rob him, in order to "protect" him against his will. 5. That the only security men can have for their political liberty, consists in their keeping their money in their own pockets, until they have assurances, perfectly satisfactory to themselves, that it will be used as they wish it to be used, for their benefit, and not for their injury. 6. That no government, so called, can reasonably be trusted for a moment, or reasonably be supposed to have honest purposes in view, any longer than it depends wholly upon voluntary support.



On Voting:

All the voting that has ever taken place under the Constitution, has been of such a kind that it not only did not pledge the whole people to support the Constitution, but it did not even pledge any one of them to do so, as the following considerations show.


In the very nature of things, the act of voting could bind nobody but the actual voters. But owing to the property qualifications required, it is probable that, during the first twenty or thirty years under the Constitution, not more than one-tenth, fifteenth, or perhaps twentieth of the whole population (black and white, men, women, and minors) were permitted to vote. Consequently, so far as voting was concerned, not more than one-tenth, fifteenth, or twentieth of those then existing, could have incurred any obligation to support the Constitution.
At the present time, it is probable that not more than one-sixth of the whole population are permitted to vote. Consequently, so far as voting is concerned, the other five-sixths can have given no pledge that they will support the Constitution.


Of the one-sixth that are permitted to vote, probably not more than two-thirds (about one-ninth of the whole population) have usually voted. Many never vote at all. Many vote only once in two, three, five, or ten years, in periods of great excitement.
No one, by voting, can be said to pledge himself for any longer period than that for which he votes. If, for example, I vote for an officer who is to hold his office for only a year, I cannot be said to have thereby pledged myself to support the government beyond that term. Therefore, on the ground of actual voting, it probably cannot be said that more than one-ninth or one-eighth, of the whole population are usually under any pledge to support the Constitution.


It cannot be said that, by voting, a man pledges himself to support the Constitution, unless the act of voting be a perfectly voluntary one on his part. Yet the act of voting cannot properly be called a voluntary one on the part of any very large number of those who do vote. It is rather a measure of necessity imposed upon them by others, than one of their own choice. On this point I repeat what was said in a former number, viz.:


The Constitution:
Such are some of the precautions which the laws require, and which individuals--from motives of common prudence, even in cases not required by law--take, to put their contracts in writing and have them signed, and, to guard against all uncertainties and controversies in regard to their meaning and validity. And yet we have what purports, or professes, or is claimed, to be a contract--the Constitution--made eighty years ago, by men who are now all dead, and who never had any power to bind us, but which (it is claimed) has nevertheless bound three generations of men, consisting of many millions, and which (it is claimed) will be binding upon all the millions that are to come; but which nobody ever signed, sealed, delivered, witnessed, or acknowledged; and which few persons, compared with the whole number that are claimed to be bound by it, have ever read, or even seen, or ever will read or see. And of those who ever have read it, or ever will read it scarcely any two, perhaps no two, have ever agreed, or ever will agree, as to what it means.


The full text is available here.



So I think some good points are made here. Does anybody want to try to defend the constitution as a legally binding document?
Last edited by Bendira on Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Lowell Leber
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Postby Lowell Leber » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:13 am

It is just as legally binding as any other law given that it is the "Supreme Law of the Land".
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:15 am

Lowell Leber wrote:It is just as legally binding as any other law given that it is the "Supreme Law of the Land".


Its not even consistent. In any court of law, a contract is something that is voluntarily agreed upon. The Constitution is not voluntarily agreed upon. In fact, it claims to bind everyone regardless of whether they have even read it!
Last edited by Bendira on Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:17 am

Bendira wrote:Its not even consistent. In any court of law, a contract is something that is voluntarily agreed upon. The Constitution is not voluntarily agreed upon. In fact, it claims to bind everyone regardless of whether they have even read it!

Ignorance is not a defence. One cannot murder because they had not heard that there is a law against murder.
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Lowell Leber
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Postby Lowell Leber » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:19 am

Bendira wrote:
Lowell Leber wrote:It is just as legally binding as any other law given that it is the "Supreme Law of the Land".


Its not even consistent. In any court of law, a contract is something that is voluntarily agreed upon. The Constitution is not voluntarily agreed upon. In fact, it claims to bind everyone regardless of whether they have even read it!


I didnt say it was a legally binding contract, just that it is legally binding as a law. I never signed anything agreeing that I wouldnt murder, rape, or pillage my way across the US, but I am still legally bound not to.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:20 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bendira wrote:Its not even consistent. In any court of law, a contract is something that is voluntarily agreed upon. The Constitution is not voluntarily agreed upon. In fact, it claims to bind everyone regardless of whether they have even read it!

Ignorance is not a defence. One cannot murder because they had not heard that there is a law against murder.


The Constitution, just like the laws you speak of, are not contracts and voluntary associations. I know you probably would agree with me, this topic is more for those that wish to argue that the Constitution has the will of the people etc. I know from talking to you before that you admit that it all just comes down to who has the most guns, and are fine with that. So this topic isn't really for you, as we are both in agreement from the beggining.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:21 am

Bendira wrote:The Constitution, just like the laws you speak of, are not contracts and voluntary associations.

Good thing it doesn't need to be voluntary.
I know you probably would agree with me, this topic is more for those that wish to argue that the Constitution has the will of the people etc. I know from talking to you before that you admit that it all just comes down to who has the most guns, and are fine with that. So this topic isn't really for you, as we are both in agreement from the beggining.

Actually, we're in disagreement, seeing as you believe that whoever has the most guns is in the 'wrong'.
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:21 am

Lowell Leber wrote:
Bendira wrote:
Its not even consistent. In any court of law, a contract is something that is voluntarily agreed upon. The Constitution is not voluntarily agreed upon. In fact, it claims to bind everyone regardless of whether they have even read it!


I didnt say it was a legally binding contract, just that it is legally binding as a law. I never signed anything agreeing that I wouldnt murder, rape, or pillage my way across the US, but I am still legally bound not to.


So you agree that the constitution is not a contract, and does not need the will of the people to exist. So you would agree that the United States Government derives its "legitimacy" from the fact that they have the most guns, rather than the fact that they have the "consent of the governed". If you agree with that, then we are on the same page.
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:23 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bendira wrote:The Constitution, just like the laws you speak of, are not contracts and voluntary associations.

Good thing it doesn't need to be voluntary.
I know you probably would agree with me, this topic is more for those that wish to argue that the Constitution has the will of the people etc. I know from talking to you before that you admit that it all just comes down to who has the most guns, and are fine with that. So this topic isn't really for you, as we are both in agreement from the beggining.

Actually, we're in disagreement, seeing as you believe that whoever has the most guns is in the 'wrong'.


We disagree on the merits of whether involuntary associations are good or bad, but we agree that the Constitution's claim of legitimacy through consent of the governed is false, which is what this topic is about. So we indeed are in agreement from the get-go.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:24 am

Bendira wrote:We disagree on the merits of whether involuntary associations are good or bad, but we agree that the Constitution's claim of legitimacy through consent of the governed is false, which is what this topic is about. So we indeed are in agreement from the get-go.

The Constitution claims authority through consent of a majority of the governed, while backing up it's claims on the minority through force.
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:27 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bendira wrote:We disagree on the merits of whether involuntary associations are good or bad, but we agree that the Constitution's claim of legitimacy through consent of the governed is false, which is what this topic is about. So we indeed are in agreement from the get-go.

The Constitution claims authority through consent of a majority of the governed, while backing up it's claims on the minority through force.


It is questionable whether the Constitution claims that, and whether the government even has the backing of the majority, let alone the minority. I think I would agree with your statement that the Constitution essentially does what you described, but I am not so sure it claims that.
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Lowell Leber
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Postby Lowell Leber » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:27 am

Bendira wrote:
Lowell Leber wrote:
I didnt say it was a legally binding contract, just that it is legally binding as a law. I never signed anything agreeing that I wouldnt murder, rape, or pillage my way across the US, but I am still legally bound not to.


So you agree that the constitution is not a contract, and does not need the will of the people to exist. So you would agree that the United States Government derives its "legitimacy" from the fact that they have the most guns, rather than the fact that they have the "consent of the governed". If you agree with that, then we are on the same page.


Not entirely in agreement with you. I dont believe that social contracts have to be recieved and fullfilled like a legal contract does. As far as the "Legitimacy" of the US government, I believe it is found in the fact that it doesnt have to use its superiority in guns to maintain itself. The majority of citizens such as myself accept it as legitimate, therefore it is. That said, I am a strong supporter of 2nd Amendment Gun Rights in case the day ever did come when the US government had to rely on its guns to maintain said "legitimacy".
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Postby Greed and Death » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:28 am

Lowell Leber wrote:
Bendira wrote:
Its not even consistent. In any court of law, a contract is something that is voluntarily agreed upon. The Constitution is not voluntarily agreed upon. In fact, it claims to bind everyone regardless of whether they have even read it!


I didnt say it was a legally binding contract, just that it is legally binding as a law. I never signed anything agreeing that I wouldnt murder, rape, or pillage my way across the US, but I am still legally bound not to.

Your consent is implied by your presence here.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:29 am

greed and death wrote:
Lowell Leber wrote:
I didnt say it was a legally binding contract, just that it is legally binding as a law. I never signed anything agreeing that I wouldnt murder, rape, or pillage my way across the US, but I am still legally bound not to.

Your consent is implied by your presence here.


So by being born you are providing your consent to a contract you have never read, and aren't even capable of understanding if you could read?
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:30 am

Bendira wrote:It is questionable whether the Constitution claims that, and whether the government even has the backing of the majority, let alone the minority.

I love how people like to pretend the majority agrees with them even when they obviously don't. The vast majority of people support the government and the Constitution.
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Postby Lowell Leber » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:30 am

greed and death wrote:
Lowell Leber wrote:
I didnt say it was a legally binding contract, just that it is legally binding as a law. I never signed anything agreeing that I wouldnt murder, rape, or pillage my way across the US, but I am still legally bound not to.

Your consent is implied by your presence here.


Uhhh, was that to me? Because if it was than yes my consent is implied because I'm not locked up on Death Row.
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Lowell Leber
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Postby Lowell Leber » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:31 am

Bendira wrote:
greed and death wrote:Your consent is implied by your presence here.


So by being born you are providing your consent to a contract you have never read, and aren't even capable of understanding if you could read?


Yes, if I dont consent then I should move. And I am more than capable of understanding the Constitution and have read it several times.
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Postby Mount Shavano » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:32 am

The Constitution is an agreement between the states, not individuals. I believe all 50 have it fact ratified it, yes?

Not that it is exactly a voluntary association, as 1861 shows, but you are a little off base in your premise.
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:33 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bendira wrote:It is questionable whether the Constitution claims that, and whether the government even has the backing of the majority, let alone the minority.

I love how people like to pretend the majority agrees with them even when they obviously don't. The vast majority of people support the government and the Constitution.


This isn't really a numbers game. Its more about the fact that individuals are being bound legally to something they never had a chance to agree or disagree with.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:34 am

Bendira wrote:This isn't really a numbers game. Its more about the fact that individuals are being bound legally to something they never had a chance to agree or disagree with.

Then why did you claim that it was questionable that the government had the support of the majority, when it clearly does, and this is not, as you claim, "[A] numbers game"?
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Postby Lowell Leber » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:34 am

Well you cant have every individual decide what they are bound or not bound by can you. Some duties and responsibilities just come with being part of a given society.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:35 am

Lowell Leber wrote:
Bendira wrote:
So by being born you are providing your consent to a contract you have never read, and aren't even capable of understanding if you could read?


Yes, if I dont consent then I should move. And I am more than capable of understanding the Constitution and have read it several times.


Ok, well I find your proposition of a fetus mass exodus disgusting!
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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:35 am

Bendira wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:I love how people like to pretend the majority agrees with them even when they obviously don't. The vast majority of people support the government and the Constitution.


This isn't really a numbers game. Its more about the fact that individuals are being bound legally to something they never had a chance to agree or disagree with.


They have a chance to disagree with it at every election.

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Postby Bendira » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:36 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bendira wrote:This isn't really a numbers game. Its more about the fact that individuals are being bound legally to something they never had a chance to agree or disagree with.

Then why did you claim that it was questionable that the government had the support of the majority, when it clearly does, and this is not, as you claim, "[A] numbers game"?


Because I wanted to highlight the contradictions within the Constitution itself. It claims consent of the governed, yet does not have any way of actually proving so. In fact, if you use voting as the measure of consent, it is safe to say the Government is actually not even legitimate.
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Lowell Leber
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Postby Lowell Leber » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:37 am

Bendira wrote:
Lowell Leber wrote:
Yes, if I dont consent then I should move. And I am more than capable of understanding the Constitution and have read it several times.


Ok, well I find your proposition of a fetus mass exodus disgusting!



A Fetus or a child under the age of majority cannnot consent to anything, so there goes that clever one-liner.
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