Free Will

[Dunroaming]

It is a given that there is no proof, either way, that God exists. To believe in a God requires faith. Those who do not have faith can say that their view of the world does not reveal the presence of a God, but it is impossible to declare with complete certainty that there is not an omnipotent being.
My problem with a belief in God is as follows.
A God MUST be omnipresent.
A God MUST be all-knowing.
A GOD MUST be all-powerful.
Without these attributes this being cannot be a God.
Christians, and other major faiths, declare that there is a Heaven, and there is a judgment passed before anyone can enter heaven. Some believe that simply to profess (genuinely) their belief in God is sufficient, at judgment to pass through the gates. Others require good deeds, combined with faith. Whatever the requirement, faith is essential.
I, personally, can find no evidence of God. With increasing years I have moved further and further from blind faith. I am someone who questions. I know that on my death bed, I will not have a sudden attack of faith. Christians will say that I have Free Will and that I have rejected God. My response is that if there is a God then I can only be following a pre-determined path. God is either all-powerful, and all-knowing, or God is nothing. There cannot be any half measures. We are dealing with absolutes.
So, having reached this position in my life, can anyone, who has faith (or not) provide any rational explanation of the concept of free will. To slightly misquote The Killers: "Am I human, or am I a dancer?"

[Farnhamia]

It is a given that there is no proof, either way, that God exists. To believe in a God requires faith. Those who do not have faith can say that their view of the world does not reveal the presence of a God, but it is impossible to declare with complete certainty that there is not an omnipotent being.
My problem with a belief in God is as follows.
A God MUST be omnipresent.
A God MUST be all-knowing.
A GOD MUST be all-powerful.
Without these attributes this being cannot be a God.
Christians, and other major faiths, declare that there is a Heaven, and there is a judgment passed before anyone can enter heaven. Some believe that simply to profess (genuinely) their belief in God is sufficient, at judgment to pass through the gates. Others require good deeds, combined with faith. Whatever the requirement, faith is essential.
I, personally, can find no evidence of God. With increasing years I have moved further and further from blind faith. I am someone who questions. I know that on my death bed, I will not have a sudden attack of faith. Christians will say that I have Free Will and that I have rejected God. My response is that if there is a God then I can only be following a pre-determined path. God is either all-powerful, and all-knowing, or God is nothing. There cannot be any half measures. We are dealing with absolutes.
So, having reached this position in my life, can anyone, who has faith (or not) provide any rational explanation of the concept of free will. To slightly misquote The Killers: "Am I human, or am I a dancer?"

"Free will" is meaningful only in the context of "God" existing, don't you think? If, as I believe, God does not exist, then talking about whether we have free will is pointless (or an automatic "yes").

As for the impossibility of declaring "with complete certainty that there is not an omnipotent being," watch: I am completely certain that there is not an omnipotent being. See? Easy. The hard part, for people who have grown up in the West, at least, is not letting that statement bother you. It takes time and effort.

[Mike the Progressive]

Yes.

[Vortiaganica]

Yes.

My response can only be confusion.

Explain?

[Rambhutan]

It is perfectly possible for there to be no God and no free will. We could all be Skinneresque creatures with no choice but to react to stimulae in a particular way even if we feel like we are making a conscious choice.

[Dunroaming]

Farnhamia, I am 99.99repeating% certain of the non -existence of God but for you to be certain requires the same amount of arrogance that a believer has.
Mike---nice reply. Applause!

[Dunroaming]

Free will can only exist in a god free universe.

[Farnhamia]

Farnhamia, I am 99.99repeating% certain of the non -existence of God but for you to be certain requires the same amount of arrogance that a believer has.
Mike---nice reply. Applause!

So? Why do believers get to have all the fun of being arrogant and making absolute statements? It's the same thing with having to respect their beliefs. No, I don't actually have to respect anyone's religious belief. I may do it because my mother brought me up to be polite, and to avoid unnecessary, tiresome conflict, but just because someone believes something "spiritual" does not mean I have to respect it. And that is especially true when believers calling me and mine "sinners" and "deviants." So ... sorry, that was a bit of a rant, wasn't it? Still, do you see my point? A little back-at-ya arrogance is good for believers.

[Olthar]

It's possible to both live in a deterministic universe and have free will. The multiworlds hypothesis shows this quite clearly, well, not clearly. It is rather complicated and convoluted, but it shows it. Your futures are predetermined. You just pick one of the infinite possibilities present.

Of course, I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. I don't believe in God, nor do I believe this counts as sufficient evidence. I'm just saying that in this particular question, there is an explanation.

A God MUST be omnipresent.
A God MUST be all-knowing.
A GOD MUST be all-powerful.

The terms are omniscient and omnipotent, respectively.

[Rambhutan]

Free will can only exist in a god free universe.

I think the ancient Greeks would disagree with you, I seem to remember that they regarded their gods as largely disinterested in human affairs.

[BurbyDurby]

Believing in God is entirely up to the individual, and I believe that God exists within the mind (not in the demonicly possessed sense) but you have to believe in God to know he's real. If you dont believe in God, then he isnt real to you as an individual. I think the Religion is a higher state of morals and life 'guide-lines' set out in different ways. Certainly there is nothing wrong with Religion, but it will only seem imposing on those on the outside.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Free will can only exist in a god free universe.

Not true. In the beliefs I ascribe to, free will is necessary and does not mean God is not all-knowing, all-seeing, etc etc etc. It's all part of the plan.

He allows us choice, allows us to decide our own destinies. We're here to learn, to grow, to question, to choose. We are not forced down any particular path. We have full accountability and responsibility for our own actions. Whether or not we take advantage of the opportunity ... again, choice.

And since we're free to choose, some folks choose badly. And some of us suffer on account of it. Look around - it isn't God causing bad things to happen. We do it to each other. We do it to ourselves.

Natural disasters? These things happen. I don't believe they are punishments of any kind.

Accidents? They happen too. Sometimes it's a matter of someone making a bad choice - drinking and driving for example. Sometimes, there's just no explanation past 'accident'. Again, not God-mandated.

But no - I don't believe that free will is a myth, or that it can't exist if God does, or any of that silliness. What would be the point if all we were supposed to be were simple automotons? Nothing more than puppets? I don't believe that. There's more point to things than simple existence, and definitely more than being put here for some higher power's amusement, directing us here and there. We live, we think, we reason, we learn, and we grow. Or we don't. Either way, choice. And my belief is God wants it that way.

What you believe is ... your choice.

[Olthar]

Free will can only exist in a god free universe.

Nope. Multiverse determinism. The future is predetermined, all of them, and you just chose which of the ones you want. Of course, Christianity doesn't say anything about multiverses, but that's just one of the many problems and doesn't deserve any special mention, really. If you're going to start poking holes in the belief, then the entire thing falls apart very quickly.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Free will can only exist in a god free universe.

Explain why?

[Farnhamia]

Believing in God is entirely up to the individual, and I believe that God exists within the mind (not in the demonicly possessed sense) but you have to believe in God to know he's real. If you dont believe in God, then he isnt real to you as an individual. I think the Religion is a higher state of morals and life 'guide-lines' set out in different ways. Certainly there is nothing wrong with Religion, but it will only seem imposing on those on the outside.

A "higher state of morals and life 'guide-lines'" than what?

[Dunroaming]

Farnhamia, I really like your rant. My only quibble is that while I can find no evidence whatsoever of God, and every rational thought points to non-existence, I cannot disprove it. But feel free to continue ranting.
Is there no believer out there who is prepared to justify the concept of free will. Or are you just scared?

[Dunroaming]

What you believe is NOT your choice in a Theist universe.

[Tekania]

It is a given that there is no proof, either way, that God exists. To believe in a God requires faith. Those who do not have faith can say that their view of the world does not reveal the presence of a God, but it is impossible to declare with complete certainty that there is not an omnipotent being.
My problem with a belief in God is as follows.
A God MUST be omnipresent.
A God MUST be all-knowing.
A GOD MUST be all-powerful.
Without these attributes this being cannot be a God.
Christians, and other major faiths, declare that there is a Heaven, and there is a judgment passed before anyone can enter heaven. Some believe that simply to profess (genuinely) their belief in God is sufficient, at judgment to pass through the gates. Others require good deeds, combined with faith. Whatever the requirement, faith is essential.
I, personally, can find no evidence of God. With increasing years I have moved further and further from blind faith. I am someone who questions. I know that on my death bed, I will not have a sudden attack of faith. Christians will say that I have Free Will and that I have rejected God. My response is that if there is a God then I can only be following a pre-determined path. God is either all-powerful, and all-knowing, or God is nothing. There cannot be any half measures. We are dealing with absolutes.
So, having reached this position in my life, can anyone, who has faith (or not) provide any rational explanation of the concept of free will. To slightly misquote The Killers: "Am I human, or am I a dancer?"

Within the context of my soterological outlook in connection with Christ and God; free will is a myth.... Man is a free agent, that is, is capable of acting without any external coercion.... But man's will is bound to follow man's own nature, and is incapable of willing that which is good in connection with his own salvation.... Within my soterological outlook, salvation comes by God in the form of the Holy Spirit renewing the heart (the nature) of the person and giving them the capacity whereby the will will good, but this is a product of the saving power of God and not that purely of their own.... But of course, I'm a Calvinist.

[Olthar]

Free will can only exist in a god free universe.

Not true. In the beliefs I ascribe to, free will is necessary and does not mean God is not all-knowing, all-seeing, etc etc etc. It's all part of the plan.

He allows us choice, allows us to decide our own destinies. We're here to learn, to grow, to question, to choose. We are not forced down any particular path. We have full accountability and responsibility for our own actions. Whether or not we take advantage of the opportunity ... again, choice.

And since we're free to choose, some folks choose badly. And some of us suffer on account of it. Look around - it isn't God causing bad things to happen. We do it to each other. We do it to ourselves.

Natural disasters? These things happen. I don't believe they are punishments of any kind.

Accidents? They happen too. Sometimes it's a matter of someone making a bad choice - drinking and driving for example. Sometimes, there's just no explanation past 'accident'. Again, not God-mandated.

But no - I don't believe that free will is a myth, or that it can't exist if God does, or any of that silliness. What would be the point if all we were supposed to be were simple automotons? Nothing more than puppets? I don't believe that. There's more point to things than simple existence, and definitely more than being put here for some higher power's amusement, directing us here and there. We live, we think, we reason, we learn, and we grow. Or we don't. Either way, choice. And my belief is God wants it that way.

What you believe is ... your choice.

Reading this, it looks like "God" is an entirely superfluous element. Nothing would actually change all that much or even at all if you just cut him out of the equation.

That's why I never understand the "moderate" Christians or deists. If your beliefs state that God is more or less just an observer who simply kick-started everything and then sat back to watch the show, then why even bother putting him in there in the first place? It just seems entirely unnecessary.

[Dunroaming]

The first Calvinist. Excellent. But what happens if the Holy Spirit does not refresh the human heart. Is that my fault?

[Farnhamia]

Free will can only exist in a god free universe.

I think the ancient Greeks would disagree with you, I seem to remember that they regarded their gods as largely disinterested in human affairs.

I disagree. The gods in Greek mythology are always running about, poking their Olympian proboscuses into human affairs. Zeus did a flood. He and Hermes dropped in on a nice old couple and gave them an ever-refilling amphora of wine. Athena watched over Odysseus and his family for ten years. Poseidon was pissed enough at Odysseus to send storms to wreck his ships. And then there's all the sex.

I think the relationship of the Greeks to their gods was decent and practical, if you're going to believe in gods to begin with. Basically it was, "Dear [God or Goddess Name Here}, here's a nice sacrifice for you. If you do thus-and-such for me, I promise you more of the same, in greater number. Thanks ever so ..." So much better than the "Do what I say if you know what's good for you" routine that played out in the Middle East.

[Vortiaganica]

Not true. In the beliefs I ascribe to, free will is necessary and does not mean God is not all-knowing, all-seeing, etc etc etc. It's all part of the plan.

He allows us choice, allows us to decide our own destinies. We're here to learn, to grow, to question, to choose. We are not forced down any particular path. We have full accountability and responsibility for our own actions. Whether or not we take advantage of the opportunity ... again, choice.

And since we're free to choose, some folks choose badly. And some of us suffer on account of it. Look around - it isn't God causing bad things to happen. We do it to each other. We do it to ourselves.

Natural disasters? These things happen. I don't believe they are punishments of any kind.

Accidents? They happen too. Sometimes it's a matter of someone making a bad choice - drinking and driving for example. Sometimes, there's just no explanation past 'accident'. Again, not God-mandated.

But no - I don't believe that free will is a myth, or that it can't exist if God does, or any of that silliness. What would be the point if all we were supposed to be were simple automotons? Nothing more than puppets? I don't believe that. There's more point to things than simple existence, and definitely more than being put here for some higher power's amusement, directing us here and there. We live, we think, we reason, we learn, and we grow. Or we don't. Either way, choice. And my belief is God wants it that way.

What you believe is ... your choice.

Reading this, it looks like "God" is an entirely superfluous element. Nothing would actually change all that much or even at all if you just cut him out of the equation.

That's why I never understand the "moderate" Christians or deists. If your beliefs state that God is more or less just an observer who simply kick-started everything and then sat back to watch the show, then why even bother putting him in there in the first place? It just seems entirely unnecessary.

Quantum physics is an unnecessary part of science. Why even bother adding that to textbooks?

Because it is real.

Just because it is unnecessary does not make it any LESS real.

You may dispute God's reality, but to say that a lack of necessity is proof for unreality is false.

[Dunroaming]

Well put Olthar.

[Farnhamia]

Not true. In the beliefs I ascribe to, free will is necessary and does not mean God is not all-knowing, all-seeing, etc etc etc. It's all part of the plan.

He allows us choice, allows us to decide our own destinies. We're here to learn, to grow, to question, to choose. We are not forced down any particular path. We have full accountability and responsibility for our own actions. Whether or not we take advantage of the opportunity ... again, choice.

And since we're free to choose, some folks choose badly. And some of us suffer on account of it. Look around - it isn't God causing bad things to happen. We do it to each other. We do it to ourselves.

Natural disasters? These things happen. I don't believe they are punishments of any kind.

Accidents? They happen too. Sometimes it's a matter of someone making a bad choice - drinking and driving for example. Sometimes, there's just no explanation past 'accident'. Again, not God-mandated.

But no - I don't believe that free will is a myth, or that it can't exist if God does, or any of that silliness. What would be the point if all we were supposed to be were simple automotons? Nothing more than puppets? I don't believe that. There's more point to things than simple existence, and definitely more than being put here for some higher power's amusement, directing us here and there. We live, we think, we reason, we learn, and we grow. Or we don't. Either way, choice. And my belief is God wants it that way.

What you believe is ... your choice.

Reading this, it looks like "God" is an entirely superfluous element. Nothing would actually change all that much or even at all if you just cut him out of the equation.

That's why I never understand the "moderate" Christians or deists. If your beliefs state that God is more or less just an observer who simply kick-started everything and then sat back to watch the show, then why even bother putting him in there in the first place? It just seems entirely unnecessary.

Yes, especially since we're getting better and better at explaining and understanding things cosmological, to the point where the kick-start from God isn't even necessary.

[Farnhamia]

Well put Olthar.

You might find using the "Quote" button a good thing.