NATION

PASSWORD

Free market and roads: Greece Vs USA

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Free market and roads: Greece Vs USA

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:50 pm

One of the Three things that separate true adherents of the "free market" from posers is belief in a privatized road system. Interestingly I've never seen the current system in Greece mentioned in debates on this topic despite being an example.

The greek system of roads is as much a "free market" as the land system in that favored "free market" zone of hong kong.

You see, the greek government does not have any money to maintain roads or build roads anymore so for several years now they have been contracting out their road system to private companies via leases.

Instead of using the collectivist model of the united states whereby a company is contracted to build a road which is then property of the commons the Greeks have fully embraced a capitalist model by instead leasing the road system to private companies who generate their income from use of the roads via tolls rather then tax payers.

In Greece when driving between cities one shows a special device at regular checkpoints in order to be let through. This device authorizes the company to deduct payment for your use of their roads from your bank account. Surprisingly many of these companies are not greek companies. German companies own large segments of greeks road system. Something adherents of free market capitalism and free trade would applaud.

Which method do you support? Capitalist Greece or Collectivist America?
Last edited by Natapoc on Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:55 pm

Capitalist Greece.
:shock:
Last edited by Sibirsky on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Wikkiwallana
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22500
Founded: Mar 21, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Wikkiwallana » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:12 pm

I haven't been to Greece or seen it's roads, so I can't compare them to the American roads that I know. Any info on them you could give besides the semi-automated checkpoints?
Proud Scalawag and Statist!

Please don't confuse my country for my politics; my country is being run as a parody, my posts aren't.
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Halt!
Just because these people are stupid, wrong and highly dangerous does not mean you have the right to make them feel sad.
Xenohumanity wrote:
Nulono wrote:Snip
I'm a pro-lifer who runs a nation of dragon-men...
And even I think that's stupid.
Avenio wrote:Just so you know, the use of the term 'sheep' 'sheeple' or any other herd animal-based terminology in conjunction with an exhortation to 'think outside the box' or stop going along with groupthink generally indicates that the speaker is actually more closed-minded on the subject than the people that he/she is addressing. At least, in my experience at least.

User avatar
Sociobiology
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18396
Founded: Aug 18, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sociobiology » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Natapoc wrote:One of the Three things that separate true adherents of the "free market" from posers is belief in a privatized road system. Interestingly I've never seen the current system in Greece mentioned in debates on this topic despite being an example.

The greek system of roads is as much a "free market" as the land system in that favored "free market" zone of hong kong.

You see, the greek government does not have any money to maintain roads or build roads anymore so for several years now they have been contracting out their road system to private companies via leases.

Instead of using the collectivist model of the united states whereby a company is contracted to build a road which is then property of the commons the Greeks have fully embraced a capitalist model by instead leasing the road system to private companies who generate their income from use of the roads via tolls rather then tax payers.

In Greece when driving between cities one shows a special device at regular checkpoints in order to be let through. This device authorizes the company to deduct payment for your use of their roads from your bank account. Surprisingly many of these companies are not greek companies. German companies own large segments of greeks road system. Something adherents of free market capitalism and free trade would applaud.

Which method do you support? Capitalist Greece or Collectivist America?



those are only "Highway" (motorway) roads, not local roads, and they have a public rail system and public buses to, so there is an alternative to private roads.
really they don't have a private system just a few private options mixed into a public system, which really isn't that different than the US, just in the US most rail and buses are private and all the roads are public.
yes I know Greece is considering changing rail to private only as well but that doesn't give us any data on how well it works.
I think we risk becoming the best informed society that has ever died of ignorance. ~Reuben Blades

I got quite annoyed after the Haiti earthquake. A baby was taken from the wreckage and people said it was a miracle. It would have been a miracle had God stopped the earthquake. More wonderful was that a load of evolved monkeys got together to save the life of a child that wasn't theirs. ~Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:18 pm

Sociobiology wrote:
Natapoc wrote:One of the Three things that separate true adherents of the "free market" from posers is belief in a privatized road system. Interestingly I've never seen the current system in Greece mentioned in debates on this topic despite being an example.

The greek system of roads is as much a "free market" as the land system in that favored "free market" zone of hong kong.

You see, the greek government does not have any money to maintain roads or build roads anymore so for several years now they have been contracting out their road system to private companies via leases.

Instead of using the collectivist model of the united states whereby a company is contracted to build a road which is then property of the commons the Greeks have fully embraced a capitalist model by instead leasing the road system to private companies who generate their income from use of the roads via tolls rather then tax payers.

In Greece when driving between cities one shows a special device at regular checkpoints in order to be let through. This device authorizes the company to deduct payment for your use of their roads from your bank account. Surprisingly many of these companies are not greek companies. German companies own large segments of greeks road system. Something adherents of free market capitalism and free trade would applaud.

Which method do you support? Capitalist Greece or Collectivist America?



those are only "Highway" (motorway) roads, not local roads, and they have a public rail system and public buses to, so there is an alternative to private roads.


Of course, this is why I said "when driving between cities"

Please note I mean no disrespect to Greece or Greek people. I love Greece!

Edit: Also the bus system and the rail system is only available in some areas so some people do not have an alternative.
Last edited by Natapoc on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Christmahanikwanzikah
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12073
Founded: Nov 24, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:31 pm

If we're talking freeways, we have to know how many ramps and interchanges there are per mile. Since those are the controlling factors for designing public ticketing prices for using the roads, those would be where the most critical infrastructure - in terms of traffic flow - would be.

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:31 pm

Wikkiwallana wrote:I haven't been to Greece or seen it's roads, so I can't compare them to the American roads that I know. Any info on them you could give besides the semi-automated checkpoints?


It's a pretty big cost for commuters. A friend pays an average of 100 euros a month in road toll fees and there is no public transit to his house.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:32 pm

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're talking freeways, we have to know how many ramps and interchanges there are per mile. Since those are the controlling factors for designing public ticketing prices for using the roads, those would be where the most critical infrastructure - in terms of traffic flow - would be.


Yes but what does this have to do with the collectivist model used in the US vs the free market model used in greece?
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Christmahanikwanzikah
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12073
Founded: Nov 24, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:34 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're talking freeways, we have to know how many ramps and interchanges there are per mile. Since those are the controlling factors for designing public ticketing prices for using the roads, those would be where the most critical infrastructure - in terms of traffic flow - would be.


Yes but what does this have to do with the collectivist model used in the US vs the free market model used in greece?


As an engineer, the method I would go with would be the one that has the most efficient "Level of Service" (as it's known here) compared to the cost to the state.

Just because the roads don't cost the government money *directly* doesn't mean traffic snarls and other road woes don't *indirectly* cost them.

User avatar
Call to power
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6908
Founded: Apr 13, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Call to power » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:12 pm

I would also like to have Germany paying for all my needs :)

Sibirsky wrote:Capitalist Greece.
:shock:


I wouldn't say they are committed to the ideology but they are at least Platonic ;)

Natapoc wrote:I love Greece!


you have held some pretty far put beliefs in your time but this takes the cake!
Last edited by Call to power on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Parkus Empire wrote:Theoretically, why would anyone put anytime into anything but tobacco, intoxicants and sex?

Vareiln wrote:My god, CtP is right...
Not that you haven't been right before, but... Aw, hell, you get what I meant.

Tubbsalot wrote:replace my opinions with CtP's.


User avatar
Bendira
Senator
 
Posts: 4410
Founded: Apr 14, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Bendira » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:14 pm

This is a close call, but I think I might fall on the Greece side. :p
Political Compass:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -0.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.00

User avatar
Cosmopoles
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5541
Founded: Sep 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Cosmopoles » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:22 pm

Its not really a free market, its a public-private partnership.

As for which is better, I would have to see information on the relative costs of both systems - both as a cost to the entire public and as a cost to road users - as well as comparisons on how well managed each system is.

User avatar
Bafuria
Senator
 
Posts: 4200
Founded: Dec 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bafuria » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:27 pm

Well, the roads in Crete were pretty bad...
Economic 3.1, Social -4.1

User avatar
Baltenstein
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11008
Founded: Jan 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Baltenstein » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:30 pm

Bafuria wrote:Well, the roads in Crete were pretty bad...


Everything in Crete is bad, because the Cretans are insane. The roads on continental Greece, especially the connection Athens - Thessaloniki, are ok though. Have to ask my friends about current toll prices.
Last edited by Baltenstein on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
O'er the hills and o'er the main.
Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain.
King George commands and we obey.
Over the hills and far away.


THE NORTH REMEMBERS

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:33 pm

Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Aeronos
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1948
Founded: Jun 03, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Aeronos » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:33 pm

Greece. Roads cost a lot to maintain, and even with significant expenditure on roads, a government fails to allocate the resources where it's needed most. This is best seen in my own country, the UK, where road quality can be absolutely abysmal in high-demand areas, yet pristine in low-demand areas, and road works can take out an entire road for weeks. With a private system, resources will be allocated to the roads with the highest traffic, whilst roads with less traffic will be maintained less. If the system changes a lot, private will certainly be much better because the private-sector will always handle change much better than the public-sector due to the market forces <_<
My Political Compass
Economic: Left/Right (2.18)
Social: Libertarian/Authoritarian (-9.71)

Note: I am female, so please get the pronoun right!

User avatar
The Merchant Republics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8503
Founded: Oct 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Merchant Republics » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:42 pm

Greece, though I'm going on ideology only. I've never driven on the formers roads, and my experience with American and Canadian roads has been mixed to say the least.
Your Resident Gentleman and Libertarian; presently living in the People's Republic of China, which is if anyone from the Party asks "The Best and Also Only China".
Christian Libertarian Autarchist: like an Anarchist but with more "Aut".
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-8.55)
Economic: Left/Right (7.55)
We are the premiere of civilization, the beacon of liberty, the font of prosperity and the ever illuminating light of culture in this hellish universe.
In short: Elitist Wicked Cultured Free Market Anarchists living in a Diesel-Deco World.

Now Fearing: Mandarin Lessons from Cantonese teachers.
Factbook (FT)|Art Gallery|Embassy Program

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:47 pm

Sibirsky wrote:http://www.openmarket.org/2010/11/05/the-problem-with-public-private-partnerships/


I'm not sure this is a public private partnership any more then you can say that all companies in hong kong are private public partnerships because all land there is by lease from the government.

It's simply an issue where a company bids to lease a section of road and charges fees for use to make their money rather then charging the government as would be done in the more collectivized system of the US.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:51 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:http://www.openmarket.org/2010/11/05/the-problem-with-public-private-partnerships/


I'm not sure this is a public private partnership any more then you can say that all companies in hong kong are private public partnerships because all land there is by lease from the government.

It's simply an issue where a company bids to lease a section of road and charges fees for use to make their money rather then charging the government as would be done in the more collectivized system of the US.

Yes, it's more. Companies in Hong Kong lease space in a building owned by a firm that leases land from the government. There isn't (for the most part) more interference.

I'm wondering how much control the Greek government retains over the operators. And how tolls are set.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:57 pm

Sibirsky wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
I'm not sure this is a public private partnership any more then you can say that all companies in hong kong are private public partnerships because all land there is by lease from the government.

It's simply an issue where a company bids to lease a section of road and charges fees for use to make their money rather then charging the government as would be done in the more collectivized system of the US.

Yes, it's more. Companies in Hong Kong lease space in a building owned by a firm that leases land from the government. There isn't (for the most part) more interference.

I'm wondering how much control the Greek government retains over the operators. And how tolls are set.


I don't believe the tolls are set by the government but I could be wrong. I know that some people who work for companies connected with the transportation industry are able to get special reduced rates due to partnership agreements between the various companies involved.

Edit: Also a lease is a lease and the government of Hong Kong DOES set all sorts of terms on leases.
Last edited by Natapoc on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:58 pm

Walter Block once called Milton Friedman a "road socialist." :rofl:

We have a history of private roads in the US. Especially most of the early roads.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:59 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:Yes, it's more. Companies in Hong Kong lease space in a building owned by a firm that leases land from the government. There isn't (for the most part) more interference.

I'm wondering how much control the Greek government retains over the operators. And how tolls are set.


I don't believe the tolls are set by the government but I could be wrong. I know that some people who work for companies connected with the transportation industry are able to get special reduced rates due to partnership agreements between the various companies involved.

Edit: Also a lease is a lease and the government of Hong Kong DOES set all sorts of terms on leases.


Yes, I understand that. I am saying the government of Hong Kong does not involve itself with other business operations.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:59 pm

Sibirsky wrote:Walter Block once called Milton Friedman a "road socialist." :rofl:

We have a history of private roads in the US. Especially most of the early roads.


It would have been more proper to call him a road collectivist. A road socialist would support roads owned and controlled by those who work on them.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:02 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:Walter Block once called Milton Friedman a "road socialist." :rofl:

We have a history of private roads in the US. Especially most of the early roads.


It would have been more proper to call him a road collectivist. A road socialist would support roads owned and controlled by those who work on them.

It's still funny though.

This book;
Image
Is available in PDF form (476 pages :shock: ) here.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:02 pm

Sibirsky, I don't currently have any data regarding the extent of government influence in roads. I presume they do dictate things such as speed limits and lane sizes and other similar violations of private property rights for the road companies. Still it's more of a "Free market" approach then exists in most places.

To what extent would you support road privatization? Should the government be able to set speed limits on leased roads?
Did you see a ghost?

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alcala-Cordel, Escalia, Ifreann, Kerwa, Picairn, The Great Russian Imperia

Advertisement

Remove ads