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Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Dungeons...er...Dinosaurs and Dragons.

I think this argument is right and well laid out.
3
4%
I think this argument is right, but not well laid out.
0
No votes
I think this argument is plausible.
12
15%
I think this argument is unlikely but well laid out.
3
4%
I think this argument is unlikely and not well laid out.
5
6%
I think this argument is wrong, but with good effort, well laid out.
10
12%
I think this argument is just fucked up.
44
54%
Other.
4
5%
 
Total votes : 81

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Rhodmhire
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Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:33 am

Image

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... -the-bible

I'm not a Creationist. I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. I'm open to the possibility of Creationist claims, but I'm also open to most ideologies presented by most people. That doesn't mean I agree with most ideologies presented by most people.

A while back, I came across this. I don't know what this site is, I never read, nor have I recently read up on what it's intent is. I deliver an assumption, with immense confidence that I'm correct, in saying that it's a site that utilizes the book of Genesis as a main factor in a pro-Creationist argument. But I don't know the details.

Point is, whoever wrote this, tries to explain the average Creationist's view on dinosaurs.

Here are some excerpts:

Dinosaurs certainly did roam the Earth in the ancient past! Fossils of dinosaurs have been found all over the world, and their bones are displayed in museums for all to see. Scientists have been able to reconstruct many of their skeletons, so we know much about how they may have looked.


At least they recognize their existence, that's a good start I suppose.

It goes on for a good chuck describing dinosaur sizes, features, that shit. Then the Creationist perspectives start back up:

Other scientists, called creation scientists, have a different idea about when dinosaurs lived. They believe they can solve any of the supposed dinosaur mysteries and show how the evidence fits wonderfully with their ideas about the past, beliefs that come from the Bible.


It then goes on to say that the Biblical authors were inspired to write only what God wanted them to. I personally think that if God wanted to say what God really wanted to say, we couldn't read it. Literally. I think God's true power is so beyond comprehension, that in plain sense it's too much. A main reason why I am very open to different interpretations of Biblical writing based on symbolism, utilization of numbers at the time of writing, other meanings, and so forth.

It then goes on to claim that the Bible doesn't give us an exact estimate on the Earth's age, blah blah blah. Then it lists some passages to "prove" this, such as:

1. God made everything in six days. He did this, by the way, to set a pattern for mankind, which has become our seven day week (as described in Exodus 20:11). God worked for six days and rested for one, as a model for us. Furthermore, Bible scholars will tell you that the Hebrew word for day used in Genesis 1, can only mean an ordinary day in this context.


In response to these kinds of claims, I always turn to 2 Peter: 3:8, which states:

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

At first Creationists might respond, "Well if a day's like 1,000 years...1,000 x 7 = 7,000 so it's still not even 10,000 years old," or something like that.

I bolded the "likes" for a reason. It doesn't say "With the Lord, a day is a thousand years," so for all I know, it could be a million, a billion, a trillion.

You get the idea.

dinosaurs—they are all 100% dinosaur!

The Bible tells us that God created all of the land animals on the sixth day of creation. As dinosaurs were land animals, they must have been made on this day, alongside Adam and Eve, who were also created on Day Six (Genesis 1:24–31). If God designed and created dinosaurs, they would have been fully functional, designed to do what they were created for, and would have been 100% dinosaur. This fits exactly with the evidence from the fossil record.

Evolutionists declare that no man ever lived alongside dinosaurs. The Bible, however, makes it plain that dinosaurs and people must have lived together. Actually, as we will soon see, there is a lot of evidence for this.


And if they were made together on this "sixth day" that doesn't mean a 24 hour period. Again, 2 Peter 3:8.

I'm not only a fan of a 12-15 billion year universe (I believe most estimates are within those bounds) but also a fan of God utilizing uniformitarianistic processes on Earth to create a balanced and sustain cycle of life on Earth, as well as a sustained cycle of balance in the universe.

Now for the part you've all been waiting for, DRAGONS! *ROAR!* :twisted:

Interestingly, the word “dragon” is used a number of times in the Old Testament. In most instances, the word dinosaur could substitute for dragon and it would fit very nicely. Creation scientists believe that dinosaurs were called dragons before the word dinosaur was invented in the 1800s. We would not expect to find the word dinosaur in Bibles like the Authorized Version (1611), as it was translated well before the word dinosaur was ever used.

Also, there are many very old history books in various libraries around the world that have detailed records of dragons and their encounters with people. Surprisingly (or not so surprisingly for creationists), many of these descriptions of dragons fit with how modern scientists would describe dinosaurs, even Tyrannosaurus. Unfortunately, this evidence is not considered valid by evolutionists. Why? Only because their belief is that man and dinosaurs did not live at the same time!


Prior to this statement, the author also goes into a brief topic of the plausibility of dinosaurs existing in the modern era.

But don't turn this into a hate thread against Nessie.

We love you Nessie:

Image

It's so fucking adorable.

Anyways, the page itself goes into far more areas than I covered, and makes many more statements.

All I'll say is, I'm a Theistic Evolutionist, I'm not a Creationist. I'm open-minded to different interpretations, and uses of symbolism opposed to a fundemntalist view of the Bible as a whole.

Do I think Creationists are right? No. Is it possible? I'm open to it, but not in support.

Do I think they're all this:

Image

No, they aren't all Millionaire contestants. Duh.

Oh and they aren't all idiots either.

But in short, intelligent or otherwise, I don't agree with their views. And I think this is a sad attempt to defend Creationist views, I've seen some before, some I can give credit to as plausible and dare I say, well thought out in some cases. But this? Ba-hum-bug.

What do you think?

Do you agree (of course you don't, you'd be eaten alive on NS if you did...nah I'm just fuckin' with you)? Do you disagree (yes you do because you love me and don't want me to cry by saying otherwise)?

Do you think it's a failed attempt? Plausible?

What do you think?

Please try to ignore grammarical errors and spelling mistakes, I did this at 3:30 AM, it came to me while I was on the toilet, and I decided to post this. I'll go through and edit it in the morning, unless nobody notices any major flaws. And feel free to point them out so I can fix them.
Last edited by Rhodmhire on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gazilland
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs?

Postby Gazilland » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:36 am

It's plausible, but I'm sure there are limitless theories to everything. I happen to not be sure, but it does present a great effort.

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Rhodmhire
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs?

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:38 am

Gazilland wrote:It's plausible, but I'm sure there are limitless theories to everything. I happen to not be sure, but it does present a great effort.


I tend to see most, if not all theories, as plausible myself. Although I disagree with this one, I still accept it as plausible.

I see what you're saying.
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The Alma Mater
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:01 am

It is, of course, possible that humans and dinosaurs lived side by side (or at least killed eachother every now and then).

Of course, the question then becomes why all evidence seems to suggest they lived in different times. When there is a lovely explanation for that, I would be interested.

Of course, it could also be that the Pratchett novel Strata is not fiction at all...
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tech-gnosis
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Tech-gnosis » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:22 am

The Alma Mater wrote:Of course, it could also be that the Pratchett novel Strata is not fiction at all...


No no no, the Pratchett novel that was right was Good Omens where dinosaurs and all other evidence for an "Old Earth" are part of a divine prank of epic proportions.

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Grays Harbor
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Grays Harbor » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:33 am

I thought Dragons came from Pern? :p
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Querinos
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Querinos » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:58 am

So let me tell you a little about my past with Southern Baptist and their dinosaur explinations; Which can be broken down into two parts:

Sunday school pre "Jurasic Park"- A smart kid in the 'class' asked about dinosaurs and where they were in the bible. The adult aswered back "How do you know those aren't just oddly shapped rocks that some idiot said fit together like our bones." Smart kid was promptly shut up and really did not see much of him after that.

Sunday school post "Jurasic Park"- Heard all around Sunday school: "Saint George 'the Dragon Slayer' really killed a dinosaur.", "(So and so) killed a dinosaur in the time of Christ.", and "(Blah blah) knocked out a small dinosaur he thought was a dragon with simple stick to the head." So on and so forth...

The Christian revision of history is nothing new.

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Grays Harbor
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Grays Harbor » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:02 am

Querinos wrote:So let me tell you a little about my past with Southern Baptist and their dinosaur explinations; Which can be broken down into two parts:

Sunday school pre "Jurasic Park"- A smart kid in the 'class' asked about dinosaurs and where they were in the bible. The adult aswered back "How do you know those aren't just oddly shapped rocks that some idiot said fit together like our bones." Smart kid was promptly shut up and really did not see much of him after that.

Sunday school post "Jurasic Park"- Heard all around Sunday school: "Saint George 'the Dragon Slayer' really killed a dinosaur.", "(So and so) killed a dinosaur in the time of Christ.", and "(Blah blah) knocked out a small dinosaur he thought was a dragon with simple stick to the head." So on and so forth...

The Christian revision of history is nothing new.


:palm:

ok, I hadn't heard either of those before, but knowing several southern baptists, I don't doubt that may be what they tell kids.

"St George and the Stegasaurus" just doesn't have the same ring to it, though. :p
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No Names Left Damn It
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby No Names Left Damn It » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:02 am

Grays Harbor wrote:"St George and the Stegosaurus" just doesn't have the same ring to it, though. :p


Fixed. :)
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GetBert
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs?

Postby GetBert » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:12 am

Gazilland wrote:It's plausible, but I'm sure there are limitless theories to everything. I happen to not be sure, but it does present a great effort.


In what way is it plausible, there is a vast amount of evidence that contradicts it?

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Ashmoria
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Ashmoria » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:37 am

are they suggesting that dinosaurs survived noah's flood or that noah took one of each onto the ark with him?

your quote made it sound like they thought that reports of dragons in non-biblical recorded "history" were really dinosaurs.
whatever

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No Names Left Damn It
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby No Names Left Damn It » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:40 am

Ashmoria wrote:or that noah took one of each onto the ark with him?


There's a Creationist zoo a few miles from me, they claim Noah took dinosaurs on the ark with him.
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Ashmoria
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Ashmoria » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:42 am

No Names Left Damn It wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:or that noah took one of each onto the ark with him?


There's a Creationist zoo a few miles from me, they claim Noah took dinosaurs on the ark with him.

wow

thats very stupid, eh?
whatever

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No Names Left Damn It
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby No Names Left Damn It » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:43 am

Ashmoria wrote:wow

thats very stupid, eh?


That's what I said. Apparently they'll enjoy it when I'm burning in Hell with my scientist friends. I just laughed.
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Ashmoria
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Ashmoria » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:47 am

No Names Left Damn It wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:wow

thats very stupid, eh?


That's what I said. Apparently they'll enjoy it when I'm burning in Hell with my scientist friends. I just laughed.

i would have too.

who wants to go to a heaven filled with stupid people? wouldnt that be more like hell?
whatever

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No Names Left Damn It
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby No Names Left Damn It » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:53 am

Ashmoria wrote:i would have too.

who wants to go to a heaven filled with stupid people? wouldnt that be more like hell?


Only a baby eating liberal such as yourself would say things like that.
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Ashmoria
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Ashmoria » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:55 am

No Names Left Damn It wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:i would have too.

who wants to go to a heaven filled with stupid people? wouldnt that be more like hell?


Only a baby eating liberal such as yourself would say things like that.

lol

oops

*wipes mouth discretely*
whatever

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BunnySaurus Bugsii
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby BunnySaurus Bugsii » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:05 am

Rhodmhire wrote:But in short,


That's your idea of "short" ?

Don't hold back. I'm sure you had a lot more to say, you should have got it all off your chest.

I've always been curious whether a first post which is longer than a page would break the server. I guess I'll have to wait to find out. :p
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Gelgisith
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Gelgisith » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:05 am

Grays Harbor wrote:"St George and the Stegasaurus" just doesn't have the same ring to it, though. :p

And it would shed a totally new light on said George, given that stegosaurs are herbivores.

Oh, and Pern isn't, by far, the only place dragons come from.

As to the question of evolution vs. creationism, evolution changes the theory as necessary to fit the facts, while creationism changes the facts as necessary to fit the dogma. I know which ones i'd call stupid.

I forgot, when i as still a christian, i believed that god had made the heavens & the Earth, and that evolution is how things went from there.
Last edited by Gelgisith on Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BunnySaurus Bugsii
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby BunnySaurus Bugsii » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:08 am

I saw a very persuasive article on St George's "dragon" actually being an African Crocodile which escaped in Britain.

I'll give it a bit of a googling ... just thought I'd mention it first in case it's well-known already.
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BunnySaurus Bugsii
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby BunnySaurus Bugsii » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:12 am

Hmm. Looks like Saint George is more mythical than dragons are.

Where's my headbang icon when I need it? I miss the headbang. :(
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The moongoose step: a combination of can-can, goose-step, and moon-step. I haven't perfected it yet.

I can however do John Cleese's Silly Walk, with elements of falling on my arse.

...
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Ashmoria
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Ashmoria » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:17 am

BunnySaurus Bugsii wrote:Hmm. Looks like Saint George is more mythical than dragons are.

Where's my headbang icon when I need it? I miss the headbang. :(

oh bunny. it really shouldnt have surprised you.
whatever

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No Names Left Damn It
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby No Names Left Damn It » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:18 am

BunnySaurus Bugsii wrote:I saw a very persuasive article on St George's "dragon" actually being an African Crocodile which escaped in Britain.

I'll give it a bit of a googling ... just thought I'd mention it first in case it's well-known already.


That would make no sense, seeing as George never visited Britain.
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Galloism
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby Galloism » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:19 am

The only thing I'm going to respond to in the tl;dr OP is that, in one sense, the premise is correct. IIRC, the Hebrew word for "dragon" actually could be rendered, quite consistently, as "dinosaur." The two concepts are not separate in Hebrew as they are in English.

Beyond that, mankind coexisting with dinosaurs and all that... well, I don't really think that needs any further comment do you?
Last edited by Galloism on Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BunnySaurus Bugsii
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Re: Creationists: Dragons = Dinosaurs? My Response and Yours.

Postby BunnySaurus Bugsii » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:22 am

No Names Left Damn It wrote:
BunnySaurus Bugsii wrote:I saw a very persuasive article on St George's "dragon" actually being an African Crocodile which escaped in Britain.

I'll give it a bit of a googling ... just thought I'd mention it first in case it's well-known already.


That would make no sense, seeing as George never visited Britain.


Eh, it was persuasive when I saw it. I was probably stoned or something.

Apologies for that.

Thread source wrote:An aura of mystery surrounds the dinosaurs. Where did they come from? Did they evolve? Did they really live millions of years ago? What happened to them? Are there any living today? Has any human being ever seen a live dinosaur?

Children and adults alike are absolutely fascinated by these mysterious monsters. Numerous books and movies have been produced to satisfy a seemingly insatiable hunger for information on these puzzling creatures. The truth of the matter, however, is that there are no real mysteries at all, once you have key information that is not generally known and is withheld from the public.


And that's all I bothered to read. "Key information" is available in school text-books, ya nutter !
Last edited by BunnySaurus Bugsii on Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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More sig:
Saboteur: A well-meaning idiot, walking into the future barefoot.
...

The moongoose step: a combination of can-can, goose-step, and moon-step. I haven't perfected it yet.

I can however do John Cleese's Silly Walk, with elements of falling on my arse.

...
When we hear our future selves, we are humbled. We are willing servants.

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