Modifying the income tax rate calculator

[Chrinthanium]

i dropped from 100% to 70%. So that thrills me!

[-Bederich-]

I don't like this at all. All the nations who had extremely hogh income taxes got rewarded by having their taxes go down. My income tax went up to 18 % from 12 %. That is to high for the amount of things my governmet does.

[North Mack]

I don't like this at all. All the nations who had extremely hogh income taxes got rewarded by having their taxes go down. My income tax went up to 18 % from 12 %. That is to high for the amount of things my governmet does.

Obviously not because you answered issues which resulted in that being found as your tax rate. The change is already in place, it's no longer a question of will we instigate it or not. All you can do now is answer issues differently to bring down your tax rate.

[Vanguardympus]

You lost me when you based your argument upon the existence of "capitalists" who hit 100% income tax. Don't bother changing it.

[North Mack]

You lost me when you based your argument upon the existence of "capitalists" who hit 100% income tax. Don't bother changing it.

You lost me when you suggested this hasn't been implemented since December 30th.

[Kalasparata]

Did anyone accually read what I wrote?

[Malikov]

I just got the "A Taxing Dilema" issue today, and noticed that the issue isn't using the new tax calculator. With the new calculator my tax rate is 77%, but the issue says it's 100%. I just thought the issue editros would like to know.

[[violet]]

Fixed.

[Acrem]

Update (30-December-2010): This has been implemented! Thank you to everyone who contributed to the discussion!

In another thread it was proposed that we should look at modifying the way NationStates calculates income tax rates, due to the very high numbers of nations at either extreme. In particular, older nations tend to reach 100% tax rates even with capitalist economies.

A simple solution would be to normalize this number, so that reaching 0% or 100% requires increasingly more effort.

Here is an example, where you can input a nation name and see how it would be affected. This takes the same data underlying your current tax rate (but which may be less than zero or greater than 100) and shifts it toward 33% (the OECD average).

On the one hand, this gives us a more realistic distribution of tax rates, and a proper "reward for effort" for nations who have consistently cut or added government services over time. On the other, it may disrupt those who rely on the current system, or want to quickly get nations to 0% or 100%.

Update (30-December-2010): Implemented! Thank you to everyone who contributed to the discussion on this change.

This is a really good idea. It would help me get my taxes down.

[Bazalonia]

This is a really good idea. It would help me get my taxes down.

If you haven't noticed this has already been implemented late december last year. Your tax rates will not change from what they are now.

[Home on Derange]

I am way late on this one, because I only recently joined. But I noticed right away that this simulation allows you to easily raise your taxes without allowing the same in reverse. How do you "cut" taxes? You should be able to see how much of your budget is going where, and just cut taxes where you want by repealing legislation.

I don't think "normalizing" the algorithm as time goes by hits the mark at all. We need to be able to "undo" what we have done in the past. Good legislation is only good until a better idea comes along, and you can only fund so much. Allow me to repeal something I passed earlier and net the savings.

[Flibbleites]

I am way late on this one, because I only recently joined. But I noticed right away that this simulation allows you to easily raise your taxes without allowing the same in reverse. How do you "cut" taxes? You should be able to see how much of your budget is going where, and just cut taxes where you want by repealing legislation.

I don't think "normalizing" the algorithm as time goes by hits the mark at all. We need to be able to "undo" what we have done in the past. Good legislation is only good until a better idea comes along, and you can only fund so much. Allow me to repeal something I passed earlier and net the savings.

First off, the changes discussed in this thread are already implemented. Secondly, if you want to cut taxes all you have to do is get an issue with an option that lets you cut taxes.

[Itinerate Tree Dweller]

I believe there is an issue that allows your citizens to pay taxes only to the programs they want, the effect of this being that your taxes drop dramatically, probably dangerously.

I've never been curious enough to complete this issue.

[Umbra Ac Silentium]

I believe there is an issue that allows your citizens to pay taxes only to the programs they want, the effect of this being that your taxes drop dramatically, probably dangerously.

I've never been curious enough to complete this issue.

No, the first one drops it, I think that option just shifts the allocation of taxes towards public services.

[Germonica]

I think it is a lot better.

[Home on Derange]

I am way late on this one, because I only recently joined. But I noticed right away that this simulation allows you to easily raise your taxes without allowing the same in reverse. How do you "cut" taxes? You should be able to see how much of your budget is going where, and just cut taxes where you want by repealing legislation.

I don't think "normalizing" the algorithm as time goes by hits the mark at all. We need to be able to "undo" what we have done in the past. Good legislation is only good until a better idea comes along, and you can only fund so much. Allow me to repeal something I passed earlier and net the savings.

First off, the changes discussed in this thread are already implemented. Secondly, if you want to cut taxes all you have to do is get an issue with an option that lets you cut taxes.

As I said, I know I am late. I am giving my opinion. Saying the changes are implemented does not discount that there may be a better way.

Second, if you guys are happy with hoping some issue rolls around one day to allow you to gain better control over your tax rate, that is fine. I think it could be a lot better in a proactive, take control of your government way though.

Every real-life government has the real capability of choosing to cut taxes by removing outdated or inefficient, dollar-heavy legislation --One piece of legislation at a time if they choose. But that is not available in this simulation. So what are we simulating if not real life?

And for what it is worth, the new calculation actually makes my tax rate higher than the old (being a new country). My current tax rate would be zero using the old formula -- according to the calculator. So while it may make things "better" for those with longstanding, highly taxed countries who have enacted hundreds of pieces of proposed legislation...it does not do the same for new countries, and in particular those who actually want less legislation and lower taxes as a result.

[Flibbleites]

Second, if you guys are happy with hoping some issue rolls around one day to allow you to gain better control over your tax rate, that is fine. I think it could be a lot better in a proactive, take control of your government way though.

The problem with that idea is, that it requires the admins to recode the game because currently the only way to change your nation's stats is through issues and WA Resolutions.

Every real-life government has the real capability of choosing to cut taxes by removing outdated or inefficient, dollar-heavy legislation --One piece of legislation at a time if they choose. But that is not available in this simulation. So what are we simulating if not real life?

Show me any place on the site where we claim to be a 100% accurate simulation of real life.

And for what it is worth, the new calculation actually makes my tax rate higher than the old (being a new country). My current tax rate would be zero using the old formula -- according to the calculator. So while it may make things "better" for those with longstanding, highly taxed countries who have enacted hundreds of pieces of proposed legislation...it does not do the same for new countries, and in particular those who actually want less legislation and lower taxes as a result.

You tax rate is 8%, for crying out loud the sales tax were I live is higher that that.

[Home on Derange]

Second, if you guys are happy with hoping some issue rolls around one day to allow you to gain better control over your tax rate, that is fine. I think it could be a lot better in a proactive, take control of your government way though.

The problem with that idea is, that it requires the admins to recode the game because currently the only way to change your nation's stats is through issues and WA Resolutions.

Every real-life government has the real capability of choosing to cut taxes by removing outdated or inefficient, dollar-heavy legislation --One piece of legislation at a time if they choose. But that is not available in this simulation. So what are we simulating if not real life?

Show me any place on the site where we claim to be a 100% accurate simulation of real life.

And for what it is worth, the new calculation actually makes my tax rate higher than the old (being a new country). My current tax rate would be zero using the old formula -- according to the calculator. So while it may make things "better" for those with longstanding, highly taxed countries who have enacted hundreds of pieces of proposed legislation...it does not do the same for new countries, and in particular those who actually want less legislation and lower taxes as a result.

You tax rate is 8%, for crying out loud the sales tax were I live is higher that that.

I hear you. First of all I realize it would call for more coding to make the change. Wasn't the whole point here to offer our opinions? I already stated that I realize that I am coming into this late, so I realize that boat has sailed. You need not take my suggestion as an attack on your beloved game. If the coders are not interested in it, I am sure they will pass. But it is also possible that they have never consider this. I'm just throwing it out there. I think the game would be better if my suggestion were implemented. And if I were involved with the code, I would be interested in improving all of the time.

Also, what do YOU care what MY tax rate is? The whole point here is the latitude tosimulate our own countries. You cannot do that when the tax rate only goes one way...up. My country is new and I expect the rate to go up as more issues come in. And yes, I do want to keep the rate low. So again, what is your point? If you are happy paying more than 8% in sales tax, well, there are lots of politicians who will not argue with you on that and happily take your money. That should make you very happy. But I would prefer to keep mine low.

So please don't try to tell me what is an acceptable tax rate for MY country. I'll decide that myself, thanks. (As much as the code will allow, anyhow).

[Sebytania]

If you want to keep your taxes low, you can just select the issues that cause the least spending. I think the current system of selecting the issues is good, since if you could just cancel legistlation when you wanted, well, we might just as well get to set our budgets and tax rates manually. Sure, that'd make forming the nation easier, but where's the challenge?

The point of the new system is to make it harder (not impossible) to have tax rates in the extremes (0% or 100%). So if you want to lower it, keep cutting your budget. A tax rate of zero means a very small - if any - government which won't have much funds - if any - at it's disposal.

[Glen-Rhodes]

FWIW, it's far more realistic for the game to not let you roll-back spending. Doing so is highly difficult in the real world.

[North Mack]

The whole point here is the latitude to simulate our own countries. You cannot do that when the tax rate only goes one way...up. My country is new and I expect the rate to go up as more issues come in.

I used to have 100% tax rate. Answered an issue and it dropped. To zero. I've been (unsuccessfully) trying to raise it ever since. So no, it does not 'only go up'. If your taxes keep going up when you want to keep it low, it just means you are not picking the right answers for your issues to keep taxes low.

FAKEEDIT: also, you just dropped your tax rate from 8% to 4%, so your argument is garbage.

[Home on Derange]

I have to laugh when you guys try to simplify everything by saying just select the issues that don't make your taxes go up.

You are missing the whole point. It is absurd to think that anytime a nation passes a law (one that requires funding), that they should expect that law will be relevant and should be on the books forever and
forever be a tax drain on their budget. It doesn't work that way. Governments have budgets and
it is possible for them to stop spending in one area in favor of a new direction.

if you pass a law that say you will spend $10 billion a year for upkeep of telegraph lines. Well, guess what, eventually that is outdated, and you can stop spending money on that.
If you pass a law that says you will increase funding to education by 5% yearly, eventually you can stop doing that and level out the expenditure. If suddenly you realize you need to form a Department of Home Land security
to meet a CURRENT threat -- to fund it, you might choose to stop funding farming for a while in order to fund it. That DHS money has to come from someplace, and it is foolish to just keep raising taxes forever.

Do you guys not even understand how a household budget works? Sometimes you are at the the limit of you budget, and if you want to spend more, you need to cut someplace first. How is this so complicated?
Whether or not it would ever be implemented in this game is beside the point here...What is complicated about "I want to be able to spend here for a while, and then re-appropriate funds elsewhere - at will - as conditions dictate."

[Home on Derange]

The whole point here is the latitude to simulate our own countries. You cannot do that when the tax rate only goes one way...up. My country is new and I expect the rate to go up as more issues come in.

I used to have 100% tax rate. Answered an issue and it dropped. To zero. I've been (unsuccessfully) trying to raise it ever since. So no, it does not 'only go up'. If your taxes keep going up when you want to keep it low, it just means you are not picking the right answers for your issues to keep taxes low.

FAKEEDIT: also, you just dropped your tax rate from 8% to 4%, so your argument is garbage.

So how realistic is it for a SIM to have a country with a zero tax rate? You sure you want to talk about garbage? THAT is garbage and not the least realistic. If you think I am complaining about the tax rate you are not comprehending.

My point here is that a SIM should attempt to be realistic, where possible. Putting in a formula that levels out taxes after you have voted on lots of issues...while it might make the numbers look better here...has nothing to do with simulating anything. That is not how things work. You have to cut csomeplace to bring taxes down, and doing so should affect your country, thus the issues legislated need to be undone before you can reclaim that funding.

[Flibbleites]

Do you guys not even understand how a household budget works? Sometimes you are at the the limit of you budget, and if you want to spend more, you need to cut someplace first. How is this so complicated?
Whether or not it would ever be implemented in this game is beside the point here...What is complicated about "I want to be able to spend here for a while, and then re-appropriate funds elsewhere - at will - as conditions dictate."

Wait you want to make this game more realistic? Well I've got a question for you, how many RL governments actually do that?

[Home on Derange]

Do you guys not even understand how a household budget works? Sometimes you are at the the limit of you budget, and if you want to spend more, you need to cut someplace first. How is this so complicated?
Whether or not it would ever be implemented in this game is beside the point here...What is complicated about "I want to be able to spend here for a while, and then re-appropriate funds elsewhere - at will - as conditions dictate."

Wait you want to make this game more realistic? Well I've got a question for you, how many RL governments actually do that?

You miss the point, my friend. Whether they do it is irrelevant to the fact that they could if they wished to do so. The mechanism is there for them should they wish to use it.

Anyhow, this horse is beaten, i've enjoyed discussing it with you guys and will be moving along.