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North and South Korea exchange fire over island

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North Suran
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North and South Korea exchange fire over island

Postby North Suran » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:11 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11818005

North Korea has fired artillery shells across its western maritime border, prompting return fire from South Korea, reports say.

Dozens of the shells landed on a South Korean island, witnesses say.

A television station said some houses on the island were on fire, and Yonhap news agency said that four South Korean soldiers had been hurt.

South Korea has issued its highest non-wartime alert in response to the incident, the defence ministry said.

Top leaders are meeting in an underground bunker in Seoul over the incident, Reuters news agency reported.

The incident comes days after North Korea revealed it had a modern uranium enrichment plant - potentially giving it a second route to a nuclear weapon.

Earlier, the US ruled out more denuclearisation talks while Pyongyang continued to work on the facility.

. . .

"A North Korean artillery unit staged an illegal firing provocation at 1434 PM (0534 GMT) and South Korean troops fired back immediately in self-defence," a defence ministry spokesman told AFP.

A resident on the island told the agency that dozens of houses were damaged, while television pictures reportedly showed plumes of smoke rising above the island.

"Houses and mountains are on fire and people are evacuating. You can't see very well because of plumes of smoke," a witness on the island told YTN television station.

"People are frightened to death and shelling continues as we speak," the witness said.

South Korea had deployed fighter jets to the island, Yonhap news agency said.


So, there we have it.

Personally, I'm not concerned about an escalation of violence. The two Koreas have had their moments in the past; this one is unlikely to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's just more Northern sabre-rattling. Even so, a direct exchange of fire is pretty extreme - even by North Korean standards.

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Jingoist Hippostan
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Postby Jingoist Hippostan » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:16 am

North Korea is ruled by a total idiot. Eventually, South Korea will get tired of the total idiot living above them. The situation will eventually reach a breaking point, and a bunch of people are going to die, many of whom are probably not involved in any way other than living in the wrong place.
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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:17 am

At this point I just feel sorry for the PRC Diplomatic Corps. Having to constantly deal with the DPRK's constant fuckups must be a never ending headache.
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Advancement of Man
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Postby Advancement of Man » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:18 am

If China was not protecting them, North Korea would have been gone a very long time ago, and we could all just end that joke of a leader's rule.
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Jingoist Hippostan
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Postby Jingoist Hippostan » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:20 am

Panzerjaeger wrote:At this point I just feel sorry for the PRC Diplomatic Corps. Having to constantly deal with the DPRK's constant fuckups must be a never ending headache.


In the grand scheme of things, I feel worse for the DPRK guys.

"Okay. This guy's really insane. And he's not just insane. He's an idiot. Why am I doing what he says? Oh, right, he can order me killed at any moment. Wait...How the FUCK hasn't a rebellion happened yet?"

No, but seriously, I just don't understand why Kim Jong-Il is still alive. I know he controls the military and all that, but I find it hard to believe that a single person in the military supports him either. And it's not like in Nazi Germany, where people actually LIKED Hitler. Hitler actually made Germany a better country (Economically speaking, anyways. Not so much for minorities) whereas Kim rules a total shithole of his and his family's own making.
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Tokyoni
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Postby Tokyoni » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:21 am

Let's not take this to irrational conclusions.

There have been numerous such incidents on both sides, most without the authorization of the government of either nation.

No need to make it out to be more than it actually is, especially without greater detail on the matter at hand.

Though I'm SURE the Western media is going to run with and sensationalize this to no end.

*already has a headache*
Proud Juche Socialist - VICTORY TO GADAFFI!!!
Citizen of the World.
It is necessary to expose the false propaganda of the imperialists and thoroughly dispel the illusion that the imperialists will give up their positions in the colonies and dependent countries with good will. It is wrong to try to avoid the struggle against imperialism under the pretext that independence and revolution are important, but that peace is still more precious. The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.

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はい、本当に日本語が話せる。
하지만 한국어를 할 수 없어요. 어려워요.

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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:22 am

Tokyoni wrote:Let's not take this to irrational conclusions.

There have been numerous such incidents on both sides, most without the authorization of the government of either nation.

No need to make it out to be more than it actually is, especially without greater detail on the matter at hand.

Though I'm SURE the Western media is going to run with and sensationalize this to no end.

*already has a headache*

So that makes shelling villages ok? :palm:
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:23 am

This is probably nothing.
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Tokyoni
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Postby Tokyoni » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:23 am

Panzerjaeger wrote:
Tokyoni wrote:Let's not take this to irrational conclusions.

There have been numerous such incidents on both sides, most without the authorization of the government of either nation.

No need to make it out to be more than it actually is, especially without greater detail on the matter at hand.

Though I'm SURE the Western media is going to run with and sensationalize this to no end.

*already has a headache*

So that makes shelling villages ok? :palm:


We don't have all the details to say.

It could very well have been some soldiers acting rogue, and perhaps the DPRK government will come out publicly and prosecute those soldiers responsible.

Hell, I mean, it's like the US military has never attacked civilian settlements, right?
Proud Juche Socialist - VICTORY TO GADAFFI!!!
Citizen of the World.
It is necessary to expose the false propaganda of the imperialists and thoroughly dispel the illusion that the imperialists will give up their positions in the colonies and dependent countries with good will. It is wrong to try to avoid the struggle against imperialism under the pretext that independence and revolution are important, but that peace is still more precious. The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.

~ Kim Il-Sung
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
はい、本当に日本語が話せる。
하지만 한국어를 할 수 없어요. 어려워요.

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Great Nepal
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Postby Great Nepal » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:25 am

Normal event considering North and South are not in state of peace but a long ceasefire.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Tokyoni
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Postby Tokyoni » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:26 am

Great Nepal wrote:Normal event considering North and South are not in state of peace but a long ceasefire.


/this
Proud Juche Socialist - VICTORY TO GADAFFI!!!
Citizen of the World.
It is necessary to expose the false propaganda of the imperialists and thoroughly dispel the illusion that the imperialists will give up their positions in the colonies and dependent countries with good will. It is wrong to try to avoid the struggle against imperialism under the pretext that independence and revolution are important, but that peace is still more precious. The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.

~ Kim Il-Sung
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
はい、本当に日本語が話せる。
하지만 한국어를 할 수 없어요. 어려워요.

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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:31 am

Great Nepal wrote:Normal event considering North and South are not in state of peace but a long ceasefire.

Actively shelling another country's territory is by no means "normal" - especially during a ceasefire.

The clue's in the title.
Last edited by North Suran on Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Great Nepal
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Postby Great Nepal » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:34 am

North Suran wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:Normal event considering North and South are not in state of peace but a long ceasefire.

Actively shelling another country's territory is by no means "normal" - especially during a ceasefire.

The clue's in the title.

Government ordered it? - I doubt so.
Soldiers exchange fire during Ceasefire? - Its normal. It shouldn't have happened but it does because troops are human and they dont always follow orders.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:36 am

Panzerjaeger wrote:At this point I just feel sorry for the PRC Diplomatic Corps. Having to constantly deal with the DPRK's constant fuckups must be a never ending headache.


I didn't realize NK had any form or understanding of the word diplomacy..

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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:37 am

Great Nepal wrote:
North Suran wrote:Actively shelling another country's territory is by no means "normal" - especially during a ceasefire.

The clue's in the title.

Government ordered it? - I doubt so.

North Korea is one of the most politically centralised, autocratic states in the world. Are you honestly telling me that these soldiers were able to behave in this manner without the implicit consent of Pyongyang?

Great Nepal wrote:Soldiers exchange fire during Ceasefire? - Its normal.

Again, you struggle to understand just what the term "ceasefire" actually means.
Last edited by North Suran on Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Lacadaemon
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Postby Lacadaemon » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:37 am

Jingoist Hippostan wrote:No, but seriously, I just don't understand why Kim Jong-Il is still alive. I know he controls the military and all that, but I find it hard to believe that a single person in the military supports him either. And it's not like in Nazi Germany, where people actually LIKED Hitler. Hitler actually made Germany a better country (Economically speaking, anyways. Not so much for minorities) whereas Kim rules a total shithole of his and his family's own making.


I'd say it is the fact that the top 15% of the country are terrified that if the SHTF they'll get the old piano wire treatment (and rightly so). So they care far more about clinging to the status quo than risking doing anything that might lead to destabilization; even though many of them may well wish that the Kims would FOAD.

As for the 85% that are the rest, they'll be so beaten down/ignorant/terrified that they won't ever rebel. Probably staying out of destructive labor camps is their no.1 priority.

Edit: And the Chinese do considerable propping up of the kims because: 1) They have absolutely no clue how to handle the starving millions that will pour over their border when/if the regime collapses; and, 2) He's their useful pet madman.
Last edited by Lacadaemon on Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
The kind of middle-class mentality which actuates both those responsible for strategy and government has little knowledge of the new psychology and organizing ability of the totalitarian States. The forces we are fighting are governed neither by the old strategy nor follow the old tactics.

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Lacadaemon
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Postby Lacadaemon » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:40 am

Mike the Progressive wrote:I didn't realize NK had any form or understanding of the word diplomacy..


NK's diplomatic corp is how the elites get their fancy luxury goods.
The kind of middle-class mentality which actuates both those responsible for strategy and government has little knowledge of the new psychology and organizing ability of the totalitarian States. The forces we are fighting are governed neither by the old strategy nor follow the old tactics.

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Tokyoni
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Postby Tokyoni » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:49 am

Great Nepal wrote:
North Suran wrote:Actively shelling another country's territory is by no means "normal" - especially during a ceasefire.

The clue's in the title.

Government ordered it? - I doubt so.
Soldiers exchange fire during Ceasefire? - Its normal. It shouldn't have happened but it does because troops are human and they dont always follow orders.


Thank you for being a voice of reason here.
Proud Juche Socialist - VICTORY TO GADAFFI!!!
Citizen of the World.
It is necessary to expose the false propaganda of the imperialists and thoroughly dispel the illusion that the imperialists will give up their positions in the colonies and dependent countries with good will. It is wrong to try to avoid the struggle against imperialism under the pretext that independence and revolution are important, but that peace is still more precious. The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.

~ Kim Il-Sung
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
はい、本当に日本語が話せる。
하지만 한국어를 할 수 없어요. 어려워요.

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Tokyoni
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Postby Tokyoni » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:51 am

Lacadaemon wrote:
Jingoist Hippostan wrote:No, but seriously, I just don't understand why Kim Jong-Il is still alive. I know he controls the military and all that, but I find it hard to believe that a single person in the military supports him either. And it's not like in Nazi Germany, where people actually LIKED Hitler. Hitler actually made Germany a better country (Economically speaking, anyways. Not so much for minorities) whereas Kim rules a total shithole of his and his family's own making.


I'd say it is the fact that the top 15% of the country are terrified that if the SHTF they'll get the old piano wire treatment (and rightly so). So they care far more about clinging to the status quo than risking doing anything that might lead to destabilization; even though many of them may well wish that the Kims would FOAD.

As for the 85% that are the rest, they'll be so beaten down/ignorant/terrified that they won't ever rebel. Probably staying out of destructive labor camps is their no.1 priority.

Edit: And the Chinese do considerable propping up of the kims because: 1) They have absolutely no clue how to handle the starving millions that will pour over their border when/if the regime collapses; and, 2) He's their useful pet madman.


I'll ask you politely to cease with all such xenophobic/borderline racist statements against the people of the DPRK.

If these sentiments continue (from anyone in this thread), I may have to call in mods to preserve civility.

Let's keep this on a rational, calm level of conversation please. ^_^
Proud Juche Socialist - VICTORY TO GADAFFI!!!
Citizen of the World.
It is necessary to expose the false propaganda of the imperialists and thoroughly dispel the illusion that the imperialists will give up their positions in the colonies and dependent countries with good will. It is wrong to try to avoid the struggle against imperialism under the pretext that independence and revolution are important, but that peace is still more precious. The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.

~ Kim Il-Sung
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
はい、本当に日本語が話せる。
하지만 한국어를 할 수 없어요. 어려워요.

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Unidox
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Postby Unidox » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:51 am

Jingoist Hippostan wrote:No, but seriously, I just don't understand why Kim Jong-Il is still alive...

Monty Burns syndrome? His life is sustained by our collective distaste for him... Think about it; the moment he became an internet meme he began showing his age. His continued existence also proves Lewis Black's theory that "the good die young, but pricks live forever."
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Forster Keys
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Postby Forster Keys » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:54 am

Tokyoni wrote:
Lacadaemon wrote:
I'd say it is the fact that the top 15% of the country are terrified that if the SHTF they'll get the old piano wire treatment (and rightly so). So they care far more about clinging to the status quo than risking doing anything that might lead to destabilization; even though many of them may well wish that the Kims would FOAD.

As for the 85% that are the rest, they'll be so beaten down/ignorant/terrified that they won't ever rebel. Probably staying out of destructive labor camps is their no.1 priority.

Edit: And the Chinese do considerable propping up of the kims because: 1) They have absolutely no clue how to handle the starving millions that will pour over their border when/if the regime collapses; and, 2) He's their useful pet madman.


I'll ask you politely to cease with all such xenophobic/borderline racist statements against the people of the DPRK.

If these sentiments continue (from anyone in this thread), I may have to call in mods to preserve civility.

Let's keep this on a rational, calm level of conversation please. ^_^


What's your problem there? If its the "ignorant" thing, I think he's implying there ignorant because the government brutally censors all media outlet. He's attacked the government, not the people, indeed the post seems quite sympathetic towards them if anything.
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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:54 am

Tokyoni wrote:
Lacadaemon wrote:I'd say it is the fact that the top 15% of the country are terrified that if the SHTF they'll get the old piano wire treatment (and rightly so). So they care far more about clinging to the status quo than risking doing anything that might lead to destabilization; even though many of them may well wish that the Kims would FOAD.

As for the 85% that are the rest, they'll be so beaten down/ignorant/terrified that they won't ever rebel. Probably staying out of destructive labor camps is their no.1 priority.

I'll ask you politely to cease with all such xenophobic/borderline racist statements against the people of the DPRK.

It's racist to state that a majority of the population is scared of its government while the top echelon cares more about maintaining order and appeasing Kim Jong-il to do anything?

Honestly.

Tokyoni wrote:If these sentiments continue (from anyone in this thread), I may have to call in mods to preserve civility.

I'll ask you politely to cease using mods as weapons.

Tokyoni wrote:Thank you for being a voice of reason here.

Great Nepal isn't being a voice of reason. He's merely acting as an apologist for the DPRK regime since he loyally tows the PRC party line.
Last edited by North Suran on Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Lacadaemon
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Postby Lacadaemon » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:56 am

Tokyoni wrote:I'll ask you politely to cease with all such xenophobic/borderline racist statements against the people of the DPRK.

If these sentiments continue (from anyone in this thread), I may have to call in mods to preserve civility.

Let's keep this on a rational, calm level of conversation please. ^_^


WTF? You're not one of those KFA types are you?

Oh, and if you feel my post is at all objectionable, please report it, by all means.
The kind of middle-class mentality which actuates both those responsible for strategy and government has little knowledge of the new psychology and organizing ability of the totalitarian States. The forces we are fighting are governed neither by the old strategy nor follow the old tactics.

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Tokyoni
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Postby Tokyoni » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:58 am

Forster Keys wrote:
Tokyoni wrote:
I'll ask you politely to cease with all such xenophobic/borderline racist statements against the people of the DPRK.

If these sentiments continue (from anyone in this thread), I may have to call in mods to preserve civility.

Let's keep this on a rational, calm level of conversation please. ^_^


What's your problem there? If its the "ignorant" thing, I think he's implying there ignorant because the government brutally censors all media outlet. He's attacked the government, not the people, indeed the post seems quite sympathetic towards them if anything.


He's presenting the people of the DPRK as starving, unintelligent, weakminded drones of an "insane" despot that seems more a caricature of a James Bond villain than anything remotely plausible in the real world.

It's absurd and degrading to a nation with proud traditions and a long history of brave resistance to imperialist forces that sought to exploit their homeland. And just downright xenophobic and borderline racist.
Proud Juche Socialist - VICTORY TO GADAFFI!!!
Citizen of the World.
It is necessary to expose the false propaganda of the imperialists and thoroughly dispel the illusion that the imperialists will give up their positions in the colonies and dependent countries with good will. It is wrong to try to avoid the struggle against imperialism under the pretext that independence and revolution are important, but that peace is still more precious. The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.

~ Kim Il-Sung
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
はい、本当に日本語が話せる。
하지만 한국어를 할 수 없어요. 어려워요.

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The chrisman union
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Postby The chrisman union » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:59 am

This will probably end up like that battleship incident a couple of months back. Lots of saber rattling, and then people will forget about it.
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