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Birth or not

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What did you vote for on the website?

I voted that they should have an abortion.
15
16%
I would have voted for the abortion, but I feel it is wrong to decide this in an online poll.
16
17%
I voted that they should give birth.
21
22%
I would have voted to give birth, but I feel it is wrong to decide this in an online poll.
13
14%
I did not vote because I am indifferent.
20
21%
Other.
9
10%
 
Total votes : 94

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Umbagar
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Birth or not

Postby Umbagar » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:10 am

So a couple in Minnesota is trying to decide whether to have an abortion or not, and they have put it up to a vote. According to this article they have had three recent miscarriages and are unsure whether to try to have another baby. They put up a poll here: http://www.birthornot.com/ where the internet community can vote on whether they should have an abortion or give birth. I am extremely interested to hear what NSG has to say since this is not just an issue of pro-life vs. pro-choice but also on whether it is moral to let the denizens of the net decide whether a baby should live or die. (currently most of the votes support giving birth) I personally voted for them to have the child because I do not want an abortion on my conscience. Please share your opinions, but be civil.
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Politics may seem like seem like a word signifying big and scary things, but it becomes much simpler if you break it down into its roots; Poly, meaning many, and ticks, meaning blood-sucking insects.

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:13 am

I'm not about to vote on their poll, but quite frankly if they aren't sure they are prepared to have a kid then they shouldn't...
So, I guess I'm saying I think they should get an abortion.
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Nulono
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Postby Nulono » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:15 am

I'm leaning towards it being a hoax. There's no reason for them to get a 3D ultrasound or go into so much detail over the development of a child they may abort. The language they use is clearly acknowledging "Wiggles" as a member of the family.

I voted for birth just to be safe, though.

Also, the 4chan raid was inevitable.
Last edited by Nulono on Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
Numbers written with an apostrophe are in dozenal unless otherwise noted.
For example, 0'3 = 0.25, and 100' = 144.

Ratios are measured in perunums instead of percent.
1 perunum = 100 percent = 84' percent

The Nuclear Fist wrote:If all it it takes to count as a five star hotel in America is having air conditioning and not letting those who reside in it die of hyperthermia, you have shitty hotels.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:15 am

If you'd just asked me this in a hypothetical sense I'd have answered straight away that they should abort. Anyone not 100% sure whether they want to have a child shouldn't.

But then I went to vote in the poll and found it very difficult.

Interesting...

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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:16 am

They had 3 miscarriages and now they're not sure whether to have a kid or not.

This is the part I don't get. They should have known from their first or second miscarriage not to have a baby or to have one.
Last edited by Norstal on Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Umbagar
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Ex-Nation

Postby Umbagar » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:17 am

Nulono wrote:I'm leaning towards it being a hoax. There's no reason for them to get a 3D ultrasound or go into so much detail over the development of a child they may abort. The language they use is clearly acknowledging "Wiggles" as a member of the family.

I voted for birth just to be safe, though.

Also, the 4chan raid was inevitable.


This was on CNN and several other networks, so if it is a hoax it's a pretty good one.
Factbook
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else."
Political Pilgrims wrote:我们不是陌生人的爱。你知道规则,所以我也是一个完整的承诺是我想到的。你不会得到任何其他人的。
Politics may seem like seem like a word signifying big and scary things, but it becomes much simpler if you break it down into its roots; Poly, meaning many, and ticks, meaning blood-sucking insects.

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Arilando
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Ex-Nation

Postby Arilando » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:17 am

If they want to, let them have an abortion

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This Mother
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Founded: Nov 12, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby This Mother » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:17 am

Dyakovo wrote:I'm not about to vote on their poll, but quite frankly if they aren't sure they are prepared to have a kid then they shouldn't...
So, I guess I'm saying I think they should get an abortion.

Agree.
If they're going to let the people online(of all people) decide what they should do with their baby, they cant be too serious about having one. The stress of going through three miscarriages, possibly four, would be tough but so would having an abortion. They should just stop trying to have kids.

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Rambhutan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Rambhutan » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:17 am

I would suggest they start using contraception, take the pill not post a poll.
Are we there yet?

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Norstal
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Ex-Nation

Postby Norstal » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:18 am

Umbagar wrote:
Nulono wrote:I'm leaning towards it being a hoax. There's no reason for them to get a 3D ultrasound or go into so much detail over the development of a child they may abort. The language they use is clearly acknowledging "Wiggles" as a member of the family.

I voted for birth just to be safe, though.

Also, the 4chan raid was inevitable.


This was on CNN and several other networks, so if it is a hoax it's a pretty good one.

Meh, the Balloon Boy hoax was on several news network. This story doesn't make sense, its an obvious hoax.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:18 am

I think it's one of the most stupid, antiethical, hypocritical things I've ever seen on the web. Hence, I didn't vote - but it's better for the potential baby NEVER to be born to such idiotic parents who trust their pregnancy into the hands of Anon. :palm:
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Arilando
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Postby Arilando » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:18 am

Umbagar wrote:I personally voted for them to have the child because I do not want an abortion on my conscience.

Why not? And why would it be a bad thing?

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Barringtonia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Barringtonia » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:20 am

I'm for them going again, it would seem they want a child but having gone through 3 miscarriages they want to consider whether they should keep trying - i imagine it's a tough decision and making an online poll an influencer seems no bad thing overall - give it a go.
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Umbagar
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Founded: Sep 09, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Umbagar » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:24 am

Arilando wrote:
Umbagar wrote:I personally voted for them to have the child because I do not want an abortion on my conscience.

Why not? And why would it be a bad thing?


I only believe in abortion in cases where the mother's life is at stake, she was raped, and perhaps if the child was to be born into a broken, poor family. In this case the parents are fairly succesful computer programmers and the health of the child is being carefully monitored.
Factbook
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else."
Political Pilgrims wrote:我们不是陌生人的爱。你知道规则,所以我也是一个完整的承诺是我想到的。你不会得到任何其他人的。
Politics may seem like seem like a word signifying big and scary things, but it becomes much simpler if you break it down into its roots; Poly, meaning many, and ticks, meaning blood-sucking insects.

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Nulono
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Posts: 3805
Founded: Jun 09, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nulono » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:30 am

Arilando wrote:
Umbagar wrote:I personally voted for them to have the child because I do not want an abortion on my conscience.

Why not? And why would it be a bad thing?

'Cause some of us don't like to be responsible for the death of another human being.

Umbagar wrote:
Arilando wrote:Why not? And why would it be a bad thing?


I only believe in abortion in cases where the mother's life is at stake, she was raped, and perhaps if the child was to be born into a broken, poor family. In this case the parents are fairly succesful computer programmers and the health of the child is being carefully monitored.

If the child's right to life is small enough that it's okay to violate it based on the circumstances of the child's conception or the child's family, why is abortion ever wrong?
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
Numbers written with an apostrophe are in dozenal unless otherwise noted.
For example, 0'3 = 0.25, and 100' = 144.

Ratios are measured in perunums instead of percent.
1 perunum = 100 percent = 84' percent

The Nuclear Fist wrote:If all it it takes to count as a five star hotel in America is having air conditioning and not letting those who reside in it die of hyperthermia, you have shitty hotels.

Republika Jugoslavija wrote:Actually nuclear war is not the world ending scenario that many would have folks believe.

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Umbagar
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Founded: Sep 09, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Umbagar » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:34 am

Nulono wrote:
Arilando wrote:Why not? And why would it be a bad thing?

'Cause some of us don't like to be responsible for the death of another human being.

Umbagar wrote:
I only believe in abortion in cases where the mother's life is at stake, she was raped, and perhaps if the child was to be born into a broken, poor family. In this case the parents are fairly succesful computer programmers and the health of the child is being carefully monitored.

If the child's right to life is small enough that it's okay to violate it based on the circumstances of the child's conception or the child's family, why is abortion ever wrong?

Because using abortion as birth control is pretentious and superficial. I'm unsure however about whether it is justifiable in a broken, poor family. Obama came from a poor single mother and look what he turned out to be.
Factbook
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else."
Political Pilgrims wrote:我们不是陌生人的爱。你知道规则,所以我也是一个完整的承诺是我想到的。你不会得到任何其他人的。
Politics may seem like seem like a word signifying big and scary things, but it becomes much simpler if you break it down into its roots; Poly, meaning many, and ticks, meaning blood-sucking insects.

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Nulono
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Posts: 3805
Founded: Jun 09, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nulono » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:35 am

Umbagar wrote:
Nulono wrote:'Cause some of us don't like to be responsible for the death of another human being.


If the child's right to life is small enough that it's okay to violate it based on the circumstances of the child's conception or the child's family, why is abortion ever wrong?

Because using abortion as birth control is pretentious and superficial. I'm unsure however about whether it is justifiable in a broken, poor family. Obama came from a poor single mother and look what he turned out to be.

Even if he didn't turn out to be okay, would that justify killing him?
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
Numbers written with an apostrophe are in dozenal unless otherwise noted.
For example, 0'3 = 0.25, and 100' = 144.

Ratios are measured in perunums instead of percent.
1 perunum = 100 percent = 84' percent

The Nuclear Fist wrote:If all it it takes to count as a five star hotel in America is having air conditioning and not letting those who reside in it die of hyperthermia, you have shitty hotels.

Republika Jugoslavija wrote:Actually nuclear war is not the world ending scenario that many would have folks believe.

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Arilando
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Postby Arilando » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:42 am

Umbagar wrote:
Arilando wrote:Why not? And why would it be a bad thing?


I only believe in abortion in cases where the mother's life is at stake, she was raped, and perhaps if the child was to be born into a broken, poor family. In this case the parents are fairly succesful computer programmers and the health of the child is being carefully monitored.

But why? Please explain why you think abortion is wrong except when the mother's life is at stake, or that she was raped.

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Umbagar
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Founded: Sep 09, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Umbagar » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:43 am

Nulono wrote:
Umbagar wrote:Because using abortion as birth control is pretentious and superficial. I'm unsure however about whether it is justifiable in a broken, poor family. Obama came from a poor single mother and look what he turned out to be.

Even if he didn't turn out to be okay, would that justify killing him?


That's the question isn't it? is it better to let a child be born into, say, a genocidal ethnic grotto where he will suffer, be starved, attacked, and a multitude of other things that will almost invariably kill him before the age of 5 or abort him to save suffering? It's a question of whether a horrible life or death is better. And if you decide that abortion is better, then the question comes up of when a life becomes worth living. it's a slippery slope.
Factbook
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else."
Political Pilgrims wrote:我们不是陌生人的爱。你知道规则,所以我也是一个完整的承诺是我想到的。你不会得到任何其他人的。
Politics may seem like seem like a word signifying big and scary things, but it becomes much simpler if you break it down into its roots; Poly, meaning many, and ticks, meaning blood-sucking insects.

User avatar
Nulono
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Posts: 3805
Founded: Jun 09, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nulono » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:44 am

Umbagar wrote:
Nulono wrote:Even if he didn't turn out to be okay, would that justify killing him?


That's the question isn't it? is it better to let a child be born into, say, a genocidal ethnic grotto where he will suffer, be starved, attacked, and a multitude of other things that will almost invariably kill him before the age of 5 or abort him to save suffering? It's a question of whether a horrible life or death is better. And if you decide that abortion is better, then the question comes up of when a life becomes worth living. it's a slippery slope.

If a newborn is born into a family that then falls on hard times, is it okay to kill the newborn? What about a toddler?
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
Numbers written with an apostrophe are in dozenal unless otherwise noted.
For example, 0'3 = 0.25, and 100' = 144.

Ratios are measured in perunums instead of percent.
1 perunum = 100 percent = 84' percent

The Nuclear Fist wrote:If all it it takes to count as a five star hotel in America is having air conditioning and not letting those who reside in it die of hyperthermia, you have shitty hotels.

Republika Jugoslavija wrote:Actually nuclear war is not the world ending scenario that many would have folks believe.

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Dyakovo
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Posts: 83162
Founded: Nov 13, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:45 am

Umbagar wrote:
Nulono wrote:Even if he didn't turn out to be okay, would that justify killing him?


That's the question isn't it? is it better to let a child be born into, say, a genocidal ethnic grotto where he will suffer, be starved, attacked, and a multitude of other things that will almost invariably kill him before the age of 5 or abort him to save suffering? It's a question of whether a horrible life or death is better. And if you decide that abortion is better, then the question comes up of when a life becomes worth living. it's a slippery slope.

It's more a question of whether the mother feels that she is prepared to be a parent. If she isn't it is better for her to get an abortion rather than risking her life to have a child she doesn't want.
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
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Arilando
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Founded: Jul 20, 2010
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Postby Arilando » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:45 am

Nulono wrote:
Arilando wrote:Why not? And why would it be a bad thing?

'Cause some of us don't like to be responsible for the death of another human being.

Why does it matter if the human being cannot feel pain? And when are we a human being, are we a human being when we are just a collection of cells? Or are we a human being when we can feel pain, or reason? what is your criteria for a human being?

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Dyakovo
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Founded: Nov 13, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:46 am

Nulono wrote:
Umbagar wrote:
That's the question isn't it? is it better to let a child be born into, say, a genocidal ethnic grotto where he will suffer, be starved, attacked, and a multitude of other things that will almost invariably kill him before the age of 5 or abort him to save suffering? It's a question of whether a horrible life or death is better. And if you decide that abortion is better, then the question comes up of when a life becomes worth living. it's a slippery slope.

If a newborn is born into a family that then falls on hard times, is it okay to kill the newborn? What about a toddler?

No, because at that point the child is legally a person.
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

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Umbagar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 514
Founded: Sep 09, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Umbagar » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:46 am

Arilando wrote:
Umbagar wrote:
I only believe in abortion in cases where the mother's life is at stake, she was raped, and perhaps if the child was to be born into a broken, poor family. In this case the parents are fairly succesful computer programmers and the health of the child is being carefully monitored.

But why? Please explain why you think abortion is wrong except when the mother's life is at stake, or that she was raped.


If something is forced upon a person, such as a baby that could cause death during birth or if they were raped then they should have a choice in whether to try to have the baby. I feel it is wrong to force them to risk their lives for the baby or to carry a baby that they had no choice in.
Factbook
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: 3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
"Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else."
Political Pilgrims wrote:我们不是陌生人的爱。你知道规则,所以我也是一个完整的承诺是我想到的。你不会得到任何其他人的。
Politics may seem like seem like a word signifying big and scary things, but it becomes much simpler if you break it down into its roots; Poly, meaning many, and ticks, meaning blood-sucking insects.

User avatar
Arilando
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Posts: 1576
Founded: Jul 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Arilando » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:50 am

Umbagar wrote:
Arilando wrote:But why? Please explain why you think abortion is wrong except when the mother's life is at stake, or that she was raped.


If something is forced upon a person, such as a baby that could cause death during birth or if they were raped then they should have a choice in whether to try to have the baby. I feel it is wrong to force them to risk their lives for the baby or to carry a baby that they had no choice in.

A fetus is not advanced enough to understand what choice is.

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