OOC: Discussion for ‘Patriots, Traitors, and Martyrs’

[Iesus Christi]

Due to some OCCly wrangling, it seems best we have an OOC thread.

To sum up what I want:

Fun. I want a fun rpg, where everyone can have some element of enjoyment – naturally the level wont be the same for everyone – especially when RPG actions impact on others, but that’s what RPG is about – without conflict and interaction we’re one step away from Playing house with Barbie and Ken.

I’m aware that there are different levels of tech involved in this thread, but I’m hoping that we can all be big boys and girls and work through this – We all see what type of tech seems to be applicable and I’d hope we can stick to that.

There seems to be an issue over who knows what – now sometimes this is my fault through being vague – for that I’m sorry. Mea culpa!

I’m happy to say you can all spy on whats happening on the surface of Iesus Christi – you can all have whatever visual spying level you want for what happens on the ground in Iesus Christi. If you all want a zillion satellites filming every Iesus Citizen playing rugby, then that’s cool with me. So, I hope that settles that issue…

[Allanea]

For the record, I have downplayed the FT and fantasy elements of my nation for the purposes of this RP. While Allanea possesses an advanced set of space shiny - colonies, ships, what-have-you - I feel it is more in fitting with the overall style and feel of this thread to limit its presence.

[Menelmacar]

For the record, I have downplayed the FT and fantasy elements of my nation for the purposes of this RP. While Allanea possesses an advanced set of space shiny - colonies, ships, what-have-you - I feel it is more in fitting with the overall style and feel of this thread to limit its presence.

I've more or less done the same. While I play FT and have a general policy of not gimping myself, I've been keeping it somewhat vague and limiting myself in large part to support/noncombat roles.

XIRNIUM: WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? YOU CANNOT KNOW THAT.

OOC: Satellites pick stuff up. Just because we play with future-tech nations doesn't mean we agree to have everything we do detected and consider anything you say is undetectable as undetectable. We are not willing to be treated as powerless, undeveloped statelets by nations not all that much bigger than our own these days simply because you chose to play something futuristic and we haven't and have little interest in doing so. Deal with it.

This isn't a matter of an FT nation saying something is undetectable. It's a matter of MT satellites in line with the capabilities of what Xirnium has RPed having not giving you up-to-the-minute intel on what's happening in the camps. Xirnium probably wouldn't know immediately the camp is under attack, let alone that the guards are within minutes of mowing down the prisoners. Ctan isn't implying in the least that Xirnium couldn't find out. Just that he can't possibly know that right now, at least not unless he has aircraft in the area that could report that back (which is certainly a possibility).

[The Ctan]

In response to Panto and TRD; spy satellites cannot do video. They also can't see the situation well enough to do that. They literally can't. (they can't read newspaper headlines or car numberplates either). There is a reason it's called image-intelligence. At best they take a few photographs (when they happen to be at the closest point in their orbit which unless you have millions is not all that often and depends on aircover, daytime heat and generally ) There is a reason developed nations with large militaries still use drones and spyplanes. Satellite imaging simply isn't that good. I have been playing quite strictly within MT capacities including in this area.

Remember when Colin Powell was presenting the 'case for war in Iraq?' - yes it's better than the images they released, but it's not that much better than that. He was not showing pictures of individual parties of prisoners getting taken out and shot in ditches which he probably would have if he could. If they could detect individual people and what they were doing they would simply be able to lock onto Mullah Mohammed Omar and he could never have escaped (at least not under a clear sky).

My nation has not acted on any more detailed information than John F Kennedy could have got out of Iesus with Corona satellites. My underpinning assumption is that I am working from grainy black and white photos potentially weeks out of date. For Xirnium to be aware of his actions he would have to have a spyplane in the area which given that I've brought extensive aircover would be warned to turn back long before it could get pictures of my secret operation, and if necessary, as a non-allied state it would have been shot down.

As Iesus has given permission for totally ridiculous image surveillance I suppose I must concede that this has happened, but this is in no way a MT ability and it is not one I have claimed or used in this thread. To say that I am somehow denying him a MT ability is in fact false. I am complaining about the use of an entirely FT, Star-Trek esque ability that I myself have not used. I suppose given the amount of numberplate-reading tell-what-kind-of-coin-you're-holding hyperbole that gets put around about spy satellites it's forgivable to assume that they're orders of magnitude better than they are, but to set the record straight, what a generous interpretation (5 cm resolution) of an MT spy satellite would see, after a specialised team worked it through, is as follows; weapons being fired on the camp, possibly smoke. Snap shots of C'tan fighters in the air. Snaps of C'tan transport vehicles on the ground a short way away. An unusual number of persons moving about the camp (if the guards are wearing urban-camouflage then they are effectively invisible in this environment) and finally My troops and vehicle in the area (if and only if they're not camouflaged, which given the discription they probably aren't)

[The Resurgent Dream]

I think I might be under a misunderstanding. My impression was that it was Xirnie's claim to have seen an exchange between Knootoss and Menelmacar in the air which was in dispute.

[The Ctan]

Nope. My rage is now about a second amazing satellite intelligence coup in the same what, hour?

[The Resurgent Dream]

It's hard to keep up with this thread while keeping up with school. I think detecting the air exchange was reasonable.

As for my stuff, Danaan planes and ships have stealth technology comparable to that of the RL United States and make efforts to remain undetected. It is core to carrier and air doctrine. However, these tactics and technologies are certainly vulnerable. I would consider anything from a 25%-75% detection rate perfectly reasonable.

I understand there is some confusion as to where my stuff is and how much of my activities are public knowledge. That I have deployed air and sea forces is public knowledge. They have made contact with the enemy at sea and over both "free" cities.

[Tarasovka]

The existence and the operations of the White Legion in Iesus Christi are supposed to be a secret as closely guarded as possible. I think the population perceives them as some sort of army organisation or some other governmental agency. The bulk of the military may also think so. The Legion, after all, tends to act as a unit of the Iesian armed forces, just tasked with its own missions.

Since the White Legion in Iesus Christi is more or less a Bridgette project, it is up to Iesus to decide how many government officials and/or army officers know the truth.

Taraskovyan intel has huge suspicions that the White Legion is reforming abroad. Iesus Christi is listed as a potential rear base. But nothing solid.

[Ilek-Vaad]

For Tarasovka ( who is likely to be shooting at Colonel Mitchell...............) Mitchell is a Colonel (retired) of the Retaliatory Guard , the Purifiers army, they are the urban specialists in the Retaliatory Guard. The Retaliatory Guard is also a strict meritocracy so a Colonel or a General won't necessarily be the most senior old fart, but is almost always the soldier who shows the most skill, leadership and killin' ability.

He's smart, so he won't wait to get surrounded or trapped, he'll kill one or two, or as many as safely possible and then get he and his 'men' out of there, hopefully by finding a gap in the Handiscar line and through, but that all depends on the terrain and how tight a net the Handiscar are throwing over the area.

[Tarasovka]

There might be some confusion here I need to clarify.

The Handiscar are apparently Iesian muslims who are extremely loyal to Bridgette, because she kind of lifted them from dirt. Only Iesus can say what their training and skills are. They apparently are a formation of the Iesian armed forces.

They are not to be confused with the White Legion, which is a separate organisation that originates from outside Iesus Christi.

The White Legion has a long and complicated history. It began as an anti-socialist officer's club two or so hundred years ago. As decades went by it radicalised more and more. When the Plague (as the civil war was known) ended, Taraskovya plunged into political chaos and the military seized power. The White Legion profited from it to begin its own uprising against the fledging government, which was already facing resistance from royalist factions. The Time of Troubles as the post-civil war period came to be known, only ended with the restoration of the monarchy and the overthrow of the military junta by the royalist factions. In the decade or so that the Time of Troubles lasted, the White Legion developped keen knowledge in urban warfare.

In the years that followed the restoration of the monarchy, the Legion was squeezed out of Taraskovya. Its combat arm regrouped in Iesus Christi, where it radicalised so hard that it is now a clerical fascist movement with its own non-canonical branch of Orthodoxy. The Legion's soldiers are specialists in urban warfare and terrorism, they know how to wield firearms and explosives and are heavily indoctrinated.

I'd figure Mitchell overall has a far better training and experience than the bulk of the Legion's shock troops, since apparently he won a rather high rank through personal feats of arms. But White Legionnaires are not easy targets, either. And there are also some veterans of the Time of Troubles who managed to survive for so long, mostly among the Legion's officers. So it should be interesting

[Ilek-Vaad]

Oh good, it turns out I was confused about that! Thanks! I thought the Handiscar were the muslims, but when you posted about their artillery strikes I guess I sort assumed some things I shouldn't.................well, you know what they say about assuming things.

The Retaliatory Guard are driven by performance, for example officers are punished for having over 10% of their units counted as casualties and the highest Retaliatory Guard honor is 'The Accord of the One Hundred Man' and is awarded to guardsmen that achieve one hundred or more enemy casualties in a single engagement. There are currently four 'one Hundred Men' active, fortunately for the Handiscar Mitchell isn't one of them. There are no arm chair generals in the Retaliatory Guard.

[Knootoss]

Tis A GoodRP

[Tarasovka]

I-V: the Handiscar Legion and other loyalists are providing heavy artillery and armour support, as well as additional boots on the ground.

[Ilek-Vaad]

I'm fighting the people I thought I was, it's just I thought you were rping them. Does that make sense?

[Knootoss]

I started a stub for this (somewhat unimaginatively named) conflict on NSwiki. See: Iesus Christi Civil War. It's open to editing, obviously. I've not gotten the metahuman aggressors to show, but they're in the code somewhere. (And probably need a more flattering name!)

EDIT: Fixed the no-showing

[Ilek-Vaad]

Oh, and the confusion over the United Duchies, the Free Republic and the House Vaad is how I RP it. It's an unnecessarily convoluted affair that confuses even the people involved, so saying that Prince Corum's support is 'Vaadian' is accurate but at the same time wholly untrue

Oh, and Colonel Mitchell works for the NGO the Coventry Institute for Democracy, he is the last of their 'Covert Democratic Organizers'. So he is Vaadian, but technically not Vaadian as well, and is retired from the Retaliatory Guard.........................

[Allanea]

I understand that Iesus does not have a map available of his nation, but I think it would be interesting for everybody to know:

Do I understand correctly that Corpus Christi is on the shore rather than inland?

[Xirnium]

Of course the bit that really offends IC is C'tani being called 'elvish' as though we're little more than an appendage to Menelmacar.

‘Elfish’. Using Tolkien’s neologisms would earn a pupil in the Bright Republic a long afternoon of copying out lines on a blackboard.

[The Ctan]

Insisting on obsolete vocabulary should earn the teacher a reprimand from the headmaster.

[The Resurgent Dream]

Are you two really going to clutter even the OOC thread with this? Good grief!

[Menelmacar]

It's pretty much what an OOC thread is for...

[Knootoss]

Sirithil, are you going to reply to my guys' inquiry about getting the direct contacts for the rebels?

If not, can I assume that no reply was given IC? Or, alternatively, can I assume some sort of reply was given? If so, what was it?

Kind of need to know in order to be able to move the plot along for myself and also others, like Allanea.

[Knootoss]

Sirithil, are you going to reply to my guys' inquiry about getting the direct contacts for the rebels?

If not, can I assume that no reply was given IC? Or, alternatively, can I assume some sort of reply was given? If so, what was it?

Kind of need to know in order to be able to move the plot along for myself and also others, like Allanea.

Right now I am experiencing negative IC consequences on account of this being ignored, and me being unable to move on one way or the other. So bumping this message, with the notice that I'm going to have to assume IC that the Menelmacari refused to give a diplomatic reply unless such a reply eventually shows up.

[Tarasovka]

I would just like to ensure something. The KNN helicopter was allowed to land by the defenders because it was alone and it was intriguing.

It is fine for the IC characters in Allanea and elsewhere to think that Corpus Christi is open ground for an invasion following the captuer of the crew, but I wish to let the players know OOCly that this is not the case. The White Legion is lying low and holding back the funny stuff. Just to avoid any future misunderstanding with people posting pew-pew stuff when there is no reason to post pew-pew stuff. Or at least poke me first.

[Allanea]

OOC: I understand that, Tara. It was also not the point of any of my posts to claim that Corpus Christi was open ground for invasion. From a technical standpoint, as long as the White Legino has rifles and machineguns, it's not actually safe to fly helis there.