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Issue: Guns Or Butter?

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Avalaun (Ancient)
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Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Avalaun (Ancient) » Wed May 13, 2009 7:22 pm

Avalaun has an issue with Guns Or Butter

A couple of days ago, Avalaun was confronted by an issue called “Guns or Butter” which I’m sure that many of you have also had to deal with. I have been stringing it along in my inbox, rather than dismissing it, because I do want to face the issue, but I’m not sure what to do as I’m not certain of the consequences of my choice.

Guns or Butter wrote:The Issue

After years of costly military build-up, the military now has a state of readiness capable of responding to all threats, both foreign and domestic. There is extensive debate among government officials, the military, and the average citizen over what, if anything, should be done with this powerful asset.
The Debate

1. "No one even thinks to look at us funny now," says Field Marshall Lionel Mandrake as he taps a swagger stick against his hip. "So think about how they'd act when the military is in proper charge of the country? We'd say jump, and they'd jump, by jingo. Oh, and if you don't agree with me, consider this a coup."

2. "There's no point in having a military this size when our closest adversary has a water pistol strapped to a scooter and calls it an armoured brigade," says noted economist Hack Gutenberg. "Besides, the military's been getting uppity with all its funding anyway. Slash its budget, sell off its surplus, and put the money into tax relief and... of course... maintaining all those contractors. Sure, they won't make tanks anymore but they can sure make plenty of commemorative plates with all that money!"

3. "The military is too powerful!" cries famous peacenik Elvis Gandhi, smelling of petrol and holding a Zippo in one hand. "All those tanks and bombs threaten us and the environment - we're number one, and someone's gonna try and take us down because of it! The people are tired of eating grass soup so the army can get another stealth ICBM launching flamethrower tank. Cut military funding and rebuild our schools, hospitals, welfare, and environment... or else!" Upon which he flips open the lid of the lighter threateningly.

4. "Everyone's got it all wrong," says Abraham Broadside, leader of the Avalaun Libertarian Party. "We need the military now to support our economy but we can't let it get out of control. I say we privatise it and divvy it up between several corporations, and make it self funding... it sounds radical but taxes will drop, the people will be happy, and we get to keep our military strength to show Johnny Foreigner what's what! Everyone wins! As long it's in the corporations' best interests to protect the country though, I suppose..."


So this is my difficulty. Avalaun has a strong military with a large budget and universal conscription. That is the way I want the nation to stay. Both option 2.) and 3.) seem to require that I reduce the size of military expenditure, which I don’t wish to do, and there appears no real reason to do so. (I think I can dismiss the rantings of a suicidal radical “peacenik” about people eating grass; Avalaun has an extensive social safety net and compassionate government programs; I instituted them.) I think that privatising the military (policy alternative 4.)) is a ludicrous option.

Unfortunately I have a problem with option 1.) I want to keep my military at its current size and state of readiness. I like the idea that “No one even thinks to look at us funny now”, but it appears that the Marshal is suggesting a coup and a military government. What I can’t tell for certain, however, is whether choosing option 1.) automatically institutes a coup, or whether a coup only takes place if I choose option 1.) and reduce military funding. :?: :? I won’t tolerate a coup, or even insubordination, and I intend Avalaun to maintain its democracy, but I also don’t intend to reduce either the military budget nor the military’s state of readiness.

So the question is what should I do. I am open to advice, and I would like some clarification from those who have already grappled with this issue of how selecting option 1.) actually effects the nation. If option 1.) does force a military putsch, then I would like to request of the issue framers to rewrite this issue to give a fifth choice which allows a nation to maintain its military preparedness without submitting to a military take-over. Thanks for your time and input.
Avalaun is a country in NationStates imagined as set in the present or very near future in an alternate version of the real world™­. Avalaun is located on the western coast of North America.
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Ballotonia
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Ballotonia » Wed May 13, 2009 11:28 pm

Quite the conundrum. It seems to me option 1. would indeed reduce political freedoms. The military would involve themselves with decision making.

Lacking a good choice for you, I think 'dismiss' is your desired fifth option. I'm getting the impression you're happy with your nation as it is, so why change anything at all?

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Parthenon
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Parthenon » Wed May 13, 2009 11:43 pm

Privatize the Military, last option. Works great.
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Aeterna Valley
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Aeterna Valley » Wed May 13, 2009 11:44 pm

Butter. Have you ever tried spreading a gun on toast? >.<
Hmm... I think option 4 or dismiss.

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Leviathan_Prime
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Leviathan_Prime » Wed May 13, 2009 11:59 pm

Option 4 makes it so "corporate take overs now involve ICBM's and Main battle Tanks" lol

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Belriel
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Belriel » Thu May 14, 2009 12:10 am

butter bullets.. mmmm

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Agzenzia
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Agzenzia » Thu May 14, 2009 12:44 am

Privatize it it'ill boost your economy while military remains same as far as i think, or dismiss it.
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Avalaun (Ancient)
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Avalaun (Ancient) » Thu May 14, 2009 12:59 am

Aeterna Valley wrote:Butter. Have you ever tried spreading a gun on toast? >.<
Hmm... I think option 4 or dismiss.


:lol: I suppose the correct response to this is, “have you ever tried to fire a bullet from a lump of butter?” ;)
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Avalaun (Ancient)
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Avalaun (Ancient) » Thu May 14, 2009 1:11 am

Thanks for the help to everyone who made suggestions. I really don’t think privatizing the military is the way to go, I just don’t see national defense as part of the private sector of the economy. Theoretically, a privatized army would be willing to not mobilize or even fight for a nation’s enemies if those enemies were able to pay it more. Besides “‘corporate take overs now involve ICBM's and Main battle Tanks’” is definitely not direction I want Avalaun or its economy to take. I think that I’ll follow the advice of Ballotonia, Aeterna Valley, Agzenzia and anyone else who picked “dismiss”. I would like a court martial Field Marshall Lionel Mandrake codicil to the dismiss variant, but I’ll just say “consider it role played.” Thanks again all. :D
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Aeterna Valley
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Aeterna Valley » Thu May 14, 2009 4:33 pm

Avalaun wrote:
Aeterna Valley wrote:Butter. Have you ever tried spreading a gun on toast? >.<
Hmm... I think option 4 or dismiss.


:lol: I suppose the correct response to this is, “have you ever tried to fire a bullet from a lump of butter?” ;)


Yes.

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Antarcticey
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Antarcticey » Sun May 17, 2009 6:39 am

I'd just dismiss it, or maybe I already have, but either way.

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Jolopa
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Jolopa » Sun May 17, 2009 4:14 pm

"Everyone's got it all wrong," says Abraham Broadside, leader of the Avalaun Libertarian Party. "We need the military now to support our economy but we can't let it get out of control. I say we privatise it and divvy it up between several corporations, and make it self funding... it sounds radical but taxes will drop, the people will be happy, and we get to keep our military strength to show Johnny Foreigner what's what! Everyone wins! As long it's in the corporations' best interests to protect the country though, I suppose..."

that's not really a libertarian solution lol. but ok
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Secruss
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Secruss » Tue May 19, 2009 2:08 pm

I can see myself dismissing this one.
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Badgerifica
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Badgerifica » Fri May 22, 2009 9:11 am

Agzenzia wrote:Privatize it it'ill boost your economy while military remains same as far as i think, or dismiss it.


yes but while the economy expands the corporations who control the military will also have control of your countries defenses and if you anger them they could either attack you or just sell it

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Tanaara
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Tanaara » Wed May 27, 2009 3:37 pm

In all seriousness, I'd dismiss it if you don't want anything to change. Dismissing an issue does NOT do anything to your nation. However if you are worried about reducing, I'd go with 1 - no it does not automatically put your nation under a military coup.

Here's a look at my nation ( via the Sunset Eco Tracker - I like it the best ) - Defense it a huge part of my nation.

GDP (Official): $353,718 billion
GDP Per Capita (Official): $38,768
Income Tax Rate: 0%
Government Income (% of GDP): 9.2%
Private Consumption: $353,718 billion
Government Budget: $29,532 billion
Administration (0%): $0 billion
Welfare (0%): $0 billion
Healthcare (0%): $0 billion
Education (4%): $1,063 billion
Religion and Spirituality (0%): $0 billion
Defence (52%): $13,821 billion
Law and Order (34%): $9,037 billion
Commerce (6%): $1,595 billion
Public Transport (2%): $532 billion
Environment (2%): $532 billion
Social Equality (0%): $0 billion
Government Waste (10%): $2,953 billion
Last edited by Tanaara on Wed May 27, 2009 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Skeelzania
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Skeelzania » Wed May 27, 2009 7:51 pm

Skeelzania had this issue a few days ago, and I wound up choosing Option 1. The result was thusly:

"Politicans are now frequently seen with guns pointed at their heads."

I think it took me down a notch in political freedoms, but as I was already at "Rare" I'm not sure just how big a notch it would be if a Democracy enacted Option 1.


Or something to that effect. Skeelzania is a monarchy, so I rationalized it as there not being any real politicians in the first place. The Sternreich is pretty militarized anyway; I've been sitting around 50% military spending for several years now.

Personally, I was disappointed that there was no option where you get to invade a neighboring country so as to force "personnel reductions in the Army."

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Avalaun (Ancient)
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Avalaun (Ancient) » Thu May 28, 2009 12:22 am

Skeelzania wrote:Skeelzania had this issue a few days ago, and I wound up choosing Option 1. The result was thusly:

"Politicans are now frequently seen with guns pointed at their heads."

I think it took me down a notch in political freedoms, but as I was already at "Rare" I'm not sure just how big a notch it would be if a Democracy enacted Option 1.


Or something to that effect. Skeelzania is a monarchy, so I rationalized it as there not being any real politicians in the first place. The Sternreich is pretty militarized anyway; I've been sitting around 50% military spending for several years now.

Personally, I was disappointed that there was no option where you get to invade a neighboring country so as to force "personnel reductions in the Army."


I’m somewhat with Skeelzania on this. As a democracy, Avalaun could not, in clear conscience accept the consequences that Skeelzania suggests in the spoiler. (Please note, Avalaun is also a monarchy. “Monarchy” is no more inimical to democracy than “Republic” is to tyranny.) Anyway, I too wish that the thread had another option. In my case it would be along the lines of: “the government vows to maintain its current military policy while purging the military of traitorous elements.”
Avalaun is a country in NationStates imagined as set in the present or very near future in an alternate version of the real world™­. Avalaun is located on the western coast of North America.
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Skeelzania
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Skeelzania » Thu May 28, 2009 3:35 am

This being NationStates, a "maintain government control" option would probably read something like "the entire officer corps of the military has been jailed amid coup fears."

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Heinleinites
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Heinleinites » Thu May 28, 2009 3:43 am

Guns or Butter? Guns. Because if you have a gun, you can get butter.
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Avalaun (Ancient)
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Avalaun (Ancient) » Fri May 29, 2009 2:23 am

Heinleinites wrote:Guns or Butter? Guns. Because if you have a gun, you can get butter.


That isn’t the question, I’m afraid. The title of the issue is Guns or Butter. At the time I was concerned as to which of the four or five options the issue allows would be most effective in maintaining the policy direction of my country. Ultimately I decided that none of the actions were acceptable, and dismissed the issue.

Skeelzania wrote:This being NationStates, a "maintain government control" option would probably read something like "the entire officer corps of the military has been jailed amid coup fears."


Touché. ;) I always think that issues should have a spectrum of reasonable to extreme, not just extreme consequences, but extreme or, at least, odd outcomes seem to appeal to Max, and its his game.
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Skeelzania
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Skeelzania » Fri May 29, 2009 3:41 pm

Part of the charm (or at least intentional design) of NationStates is that things almost always go to the extreme. You can of course roleplay your nation more reasonably, but your NationState page will always show off a nation run by loonies.

Reading the issue again and thinking about it really makes me more and more disappointed that there isn't a fifth option, though. Both Option 2 and 3 directly reduce the size and functionality of your military it seems, while 2 and 4 are both more concerned with making money it seems. Only Option 1 is in the military's best interest, and not necessarily the nation's.

A fifth option where you actually decide to use that military on someone else, I think, is the final "logical" option. The effects would probably be along the lines of "the government euphemistically refers to its latest war as 'muscle flexing.'"

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Avalaun (Ancient)
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Avalaun (Ancient) » Fri May 29, 2009 6:37 pm

Since we’ve given this issue a good beating and many of us would like a fifth option and/or have dismissed the issue because no existing option is acceptable, how can we go about asking for a formal change? Does anyone from the issues committee, or whoever overseas issue writing come here? Will advice and dissent about issues be allowed to change existing issues? Or are we just blowing smoke here, to no real purpose? :?:
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Unibot
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Unibot » Sat May 30, 2009 7:08 pm

Since we’ve given this issue a good beating and many of us would like a fifth option and/or have dismissed the issue because no existing option is acceptable, how can we go about asking for a formal change? Does anyone from the issues committee, or whoever overseas issue writing come here? Will advice and dissent about issues be allowed to change existing issues? Or are we just blowing smoke here, to no real purpose?


Traditionally, I don't believe issues were rewritten, ever, other than for spelling/grammar mistakes. That being said, an Issues Development Committee (IDC), seems like an interesting idea, because there are a lot of older issues that don't have enough options to express all the viewpoints even a wacky, tunnelvision psychotic government would consider, and there are a lot of people with years of experience and knowledge on NS issues who could fill the positions of the IDC. On that note, I think I'll put it on the Big List.

By the way, Option 4, privatizing your military, strangely enough boosted my Civil Rights rating - and didn't touch my economic freedoms.
Last edited by Unibot on Sat May 30, 2009 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Avalaun (Ancient)
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Avalaun (Ancient) » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:54 pm

Unibot wrote:Traditionally, I don't believe issues were rewritten, ever, other than for spelling/grammar mistakes. That being said, an Issues Development Committee (IDC), seems like an interesting idea, because there are a lot of older issues that don't have enough options to express all the viewpoints even a wacky, tunnelvision psychotic government would consider, and there are a lot of people with years of experience and knowledge on NS issues who could fill the positions of the IDC. On that note, I think I'll put it on the Big List.


Thanks Unibot. It does seem to me that if issues can be approved, then they ought to be. What's more, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in having an issues sub-forum at all, if it is nothing but a talk shop and will never have any influence over the issues discussed and the concerns about them raised. 2¢

Unibot wrote:By the way, Option 4, privatizing your military, strangely enough boosted my Civil Rights rating - and didn't touch my economic freedoms.


Now that's just weird. Issues should have at least something resembling a realistic effect. :roll: And, just as a thought, can anybody name one RW nation in the last hundred years that has ever had a completely privatized, non-state controlled, mercenary army? I can't think of one.
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Bears Armed
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Re: Issue: Guns Or Butter?

Postby Bears Armed » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:50 am

Unibot wrote:Traditionally, I don't believe issues were rewritten, ever, other than for spelling/grammar mistakes.
The fourth option in the "Tiara A Sign Of Oppression" issue wasn't there originally...
... but that is the only change to a pre-existing issue, except for corrections to spelling & grammar, that I can remember seeing so far.

Avalaun wrote:What's more, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in having an issues sub-forum at all, if it is nothing but a talk shop and will never have any influence over the issues discussed and the concerns about them raised. 2¢
It provides an appropriate place in which players can post drafting threads for new issues that they're thinking about submitting.

Which reminds me, I need to copy a couple of ideas that I started work on a while back across from Jolt, "just in case", and get back to work on them...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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