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[PASSED]Condemn Unknown

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Topid
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[PASSED]Condemn Unknown

Postby Topid » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:51 pm

Image Condemn Unknown

A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region.

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: Unknown | Author: Topid


The World Assembly Security Council,

Identifying The Crusaders of Justice as a defender organization based out of Equinox,

Recognizing the validity and usefulness in responsible espionage missions carried out by regional governments,

Observing that Rougiers publicly pretended to break ties with Unknown and the invader community to ally with the defender community, all while secretly working with the upper levels of Unknown to gather information on defense forces,

Further observing Rougiers was left in charge of the forums of The Crusaders of Justice and given some power over the regional forums of The Council of Narnia following their apparent betrayal of the raider community,

Shocked that following the gathering of sensitive information from the two forums and the completion of the mission, Rougiers completely erased the forums of The Crusaders of Justice as well as erasing records from the regional forums of The Council of Narnia,

Asserting that a destruction of forums destroys the cultural and historical records of a region, as well as the collaborative effort put into it by its members, and also leaves the members of the region with no means of communication other than the Regional Civil Headquarters,

Insisting that the regional government of Unknown is responsible for the actions of its agent,

Dismayed with Unknown's refusal to accept responsibility; issuing instead a message to other regional governments blaming both The Crusaders of Justice and The Council of Narnia for the damage to their own regional forums,

Hereby:

Condemns the region of Unknown for the destruction of and the damage to the regional forums of both The Crusaders of Justice and The Council of Narnia caused by its agent.


Greetings. This is a proposal I would like to see go to vote. This act deserves the condemnation of the Nationstates Community. I want to be sure the drafting of this proposal goes well due to the recent changes in rules, it may take a while to figure out if I accidently stepped over any lines, but I am nevertheless hopeful for a speedy submission.

And while we're on Rule IV... I do not want this thread to be a Rule IV debate. I realize many people will oppose this due to the current controversy. I don't even mind if you post here telling me you will oppose this due to rule IV. But I do not want all Rule-IV discussion that is unrelated to this proposal. If you want to argue with someone opposing this due to Rule IV do it elsewhere, not here. If you want to comment on Rule IV in more length than simply saying you oppose this because of it, do it someone else, not here.

Now, to the proposal:
I am concerned I may have misidentified the CoJ. They are not a region so I felt obligated to identify them since I cannot tag to them. However, I am not actually that familiar with Equinox's system.

Related Links:
FRA's post on subject.
TG from Sedge wrote:These screenshots contain confessions from Rougiers about his actions.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9146/cojforum.png - the Crusaders of Justice forums after their content had been deleted, with a message from Rougiers.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187 ... OMBING.jpg - an MSN conversation about Rougiers' actions.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae163/Topid/Unknown1.jpg
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae16 ... known2.jpg
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae16 ... known3.jpg
And since you won't be able to read those because the page was wider than my screen by a small amount and zooming out would have made the picture even worse, here's the exact text of the update that you can check against the pictures above:
Unknown Ambassador wrote:Another Successful O.R.I. Mission

On June 21st, following numerous campaigns of misdirection, an ORI Operative Report was declassified by the operative's request. The mission was considered a complete and total success, as the operative had successfully gained the IPs of many defenders and collected important information about defender plans.

This soldier was Rougiers. Under the careful eye of Crown Princess ADP, he became an operative of the Unknown intelligence branch, otherwise known as ORI. At the time, only A Darker Past and Rougiers had this information, in order to maintain operation effectiveness. Archemperor Savaer was not told of their actions or of their plans. The successful and prominent raider Rougiers switched sides publically, and the reaction of Unknown could not have been better planned or executed, because it was, for all intents and purposes, real. As said earlier, only A Darker Past and Rougiers himself knew of the real plan here, in order to produce the most genuine response possible. The two of them were NS married, although many raiders freaked about about the Crown Princess marrying a “defender”.

After the “traitor Rougiers” storm calmed down in the raider world and the two were happily married, Archemperor Savaer was informed of what was going on and the plans. As the defection had seemed so real, the effectiveness of the mission was greatly boosted.

After a short time in the Crusaders of Justice, Rougiers, for reasons passing understanding, was given admin on the CoJ forum, where he had become Chief Crusader. And it is from here that the silliness begins. Some have described his receiving admin as an "accident", but if this was the case, why in the world was it not corrected earlier? One would hope that administrative powers are meted out more carefully, but apparently, this was not the case. Around this same time, Rougiers was also democratically and fairly elected Foreign Minister in the Council of Narnia. As a result of that election, he was given global moderating powers in the CoN. Unknown could not have possibly affected these election outcomes, unless people are suggesting that we had already infected CoN and CoJ to the power where we were able to manipulate elections. That, this Bloodletter will not comment on.

After gaining admin, Rougiers began the great process of IP harvesting. He screenshotted and copied all the IPs that he could get to on both forums, in order to fulfill ORI objectives. As the process could take a while, life continued apace until June 21st.

Freeze.

We mentioned that three people knew about this mission, and through this report, we have mentioned the specific goals of this mission, as well as how they were both completed. Let’s catch back up with Crown Princess Dark and Archemperor Savaer. Dark, at this time, was out of the country in England. Her internet was not working correctly and on this day, she was not online at all--she was enjoying her vacation and had no knowledge of what was going on in the online world without her. Archemperor Savaer was, at this time, in control of this mission. After it had been determined that the ORI mission parameters had been fulfilled, Rougiers requested that details of his mission be declassified in Unknown, and the mission was considered a success. The store of IP addresses will be invaluable to counterintelligence missions in the future.

And this, right here, this is where Unknown's and ORI's participation ends. The mission was a success, the report was to be declassified and released, and...Unknown and ORI were done. Donedonedonedonedone. Rougiers was removed from Active Service from ORI, and we all breathed a little sigh and thought that we would be going on our merry way soon.

However, a short time later, we discovered that Rougiers had taken independent actions by abusing the admin and global mod powers he held in both CoJ and CoN as a result of promotions and trust or elected positions. Epic fail security. Epic, epic fail.

Backlash from the forum deletions has come from all over NS, unfairly targeting the Crown Princess, Archemperor, and Unknown as a whole. The facts have been given, and it is, indeed, a region’s choice for how a region acts. Many have already acted badly in this situation and were rebuffed by their own regions.

Unknown’s O.R.I. mission was a success. Rougiers did not hack to gain his power; he was given that power freely by the proper authorities on both forums. He will not be banned in Unknown and will be under the careful eye of his superiors, but, insofar as the ORI mission is concerned, the only thing Unknown had jurisdiction over, he completed the mission admirably and well. Any actions after that are solely his own personal mission, something Unknown takes no responsibility for.

Defender propaganda has already been circulating on this issue, asking for people to cut ties with the entire region of Unknown for the actions of one individual. Strangely enough, these same people did not react like this when Saudi Burmia had destroyed the forum of Prussia Reborn, simply telling Unknown that it was our fault for giving Saudi that admin power. It appears that these defenders either have short term memory loss, in which case a doctor should be consulted, or they're just hypocrites, in which case, they are helpless.

Think. CoN and CoJ gave power to a prominent raider turned defender who still had strong ties to the raiding community after something like two weeks. It should be obvious to where the blame lies.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record in some regions, Unknown has not and does not condone forum destruction. Rougiers has been warned that his actions were completely unacceptable, but in the light of his successful ORI mission and the belief that he should not undertake similar actions again, Unknown has decided to keep him. Again, Unknown does not condone forum destruction. Unknown does not condone forum destruction. Unknown does not condone forum destruction.

Some have called for an apology from Unknown, and here it is:

We apologize for being raiders. We apologize for carrying out legitimate intelligence missions.

We have no ability and will not apologize for a rogue agent doing stupid things. If you want an apology, we suggest going to ask him. If you are waiting for Unknown to issue one, we regret to inform you that the wait may be long.

It is our deeply fervent hope that the facts in this letter make an impression on you all. Should you have any questions regarding the mission, feel free to contact either the Archemperor or Archempress. Polite, reasonable inquiries are welcome, as we would like to clear up this matter quickly, but more of the same defender propaganda and lies, as well as unreasonable demands will be dealt with by laughter, derision, and irritability.

Again, Unknown has never and will never condone forum destruction, especially as we ourselves have been affected by it, and we are acutely aware of the harm it causes.

Complexo Cruor.
Last edited by Topid on Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:38 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Darkesia
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Postby Darkesia » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:39 am

TWP has a treaty called the COPS treaty that deals specifically with forum destruction.

It's been a while since we have had to bring it out and dust it off. I suppose since TRF went around trashing things and the RLA pretended he had "gone rogue." I am completely behind this sort of action against Unknown, especially after the snarky responses I received from Unknown's leadership. However, a condemnation is not really an action which will do anything except give Azear et al a badge to flaunt.

Uniting to lock a raider region out of raiding and inter-regional political espionage... Now that is a punishment they will feel.

Let's work on both :)
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Travancore-Cochin
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Postby Travancore-Cochin » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:02 am

Topid wrote:Identifying The Crusaders of Justice as a defense organization based out of Equinox,

I think "defender organization" sounds better.

Topid wrote:Recognizing the validity and usefulness in responsible espionage missions between regional governments,

Sounds okay, but I think "espionage missions carried out by ... governments" will sound better.

Topid wrote:Observing that Rougiers publicly pretended to break ties with Unknown and the invader community to ally with the defender community, all while secretly working with the upper levels of the Unknown to gather information on defense forces,

No need for "the Unknown", if you're referring to them as a region. If you want to use "the", then use "the government of Unknown" or "the Unknown government" or something similar.

Topid wrote:Further observing Rougiers was left in charge of the forums of The Crusaders of Justice and given some power over the regional forums of The Council of Narnia following apparent betrayal of the raider community,

"...following their/its apparent betrayal..."

Topid wrote:Shocked that following the gathering of sensitive information from the two forums and the completion of Rougiers' mission, Rougiers completely destroyed the forums of The Crusaders of Justice as well as erasing records from the regional forums of The Council of Narnia,

"...and erased records..." Also, "completion of Rougiers' mission" can be rephrased as "completion of the mission", since Rougiers' name is mentioned shortly thereafter. It'll help to reduce redundancy.

Topid wrote:Asserting that a destruction of forums damages the culture and historical information of a region, as well as leaves the region's nations with no way to communicate,

Asserting that a destruction of forums destroys the cultural and historical records of a region, as well as the collaborative effort put into it by its members, and also leaves the members of the region with no means of communication other than the Regional Civil Headquarters,

Topid wrote:Dismayed with Unknown's refusal to accept responsibility, issuing a message to other regional governments blaming both The Crusaders of Justice and The Council of Narnia for the damage to their own regional forums,

"responsibility and issuing, instead, a message to other..."

Topid wrote:Condemns the region of Unknown for the destruction of and damage to regional forums by an agent of the region.

Condemns the region of Unknown for the destruction of and the damage to the regional forums of both The Crusaders of Justice and The Council of Narnia caused by its agent.

The World Assembly Security Council,

Identifying The Crusaders of Justice as a defender organization based out of Equinox,

Recognizing the validity and usefulness in responsible espionage missions carried out by regional governments,

Observing that Rougiers publicly pretended to break ties with Unknown and the invader community to ally with the defender community, all while secretly working with the upper levels of Unknown to gather information on defense forces,

Further observing that Rougiers was left in charge of the forums of The Crusaders of Justice and given some power over the regional forums of The Council of Narnia following their/its apparent betrayal of the raider community,

Shocked that following the gathering of sensitive information from the two forums and the completion of the mission, Rougiers completely destroyed the forums of The Crusaders of Justice and erased records from the regional forums of The Council of Narnia,

Asserting that a destruction of forums destroys the cultural and historical records of a region, as well as the collaborative effort put into it by its members, and also leaves the members of the region with no means of communication other than the Regional Civil Headquarters,

Insisting that the regional government of Unknown is responsible for the actions of its agent,

Dismayed with Unknown's refusal to accept responsibility and issuing, instead, a message to other regional governments blaming both The Crusaders of Justice and The Council of Narnia for the damage to their own regional forums,

Hereby:
Condemns the region of Unknown for the destruction of and the damage to the regional forums of both The Crusaders of Justice and The Council of Narnia caused by its agent.
Last edited by Travancore-Cochin on Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Southern Bellz
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Postby Southern Bellz » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:41 am

Uh I think it would make way more sense to do it to the nation, then try to do it to the region.

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Darkesia
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Postby Darkesia » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:34 am

The idea is to condemn the region for harboring and encouraging him. Much like state sponsored terrorism.
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Greater Moldavi wrote:If I didn't say things like that then I wouldn't be...well me.

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Topid
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Postby Topid » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:53 pm

Yes, I must agree. It is better to condemn the puppet master than the puppet.

Edit: I'll run through those grammar edits when I get back from work. I hate grammar... :lol:
Last edited by Topid on Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unibot
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Postby Unibot » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:21 pm

And while we're on Rule IV... I do not want this thread to be a Rule IV debate. I realize many people will oppose this due to the current controversy. I don't even mind if you post here telling me you will oppose this due to rule IV. But I do not want all Rule-IV discussion that is unrelated to this proposal. If you want to argue with someone opposing this due to Rule IV do it elsewhere, not here. If you want to comment on Rule IV in more length than simply saying you oppose this because of it, do it someone else, not here.


If you don't want to create another thread on Rule IV, one: you shouldn't try to condemn a 3WB member then, and two: you shouldn't try to condemn any gameplayer for that matter with the unbearable Rule IV compliant language. It's disrespectful.

Opposed with all my lil' heart because of Rule IV.

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Klaus Devestatorie
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Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:29 pm

This one aint gonna happen because it refers to forums, which breaks rule IV.
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Topid
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Postby Topid » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:40 pm

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:This one aint gonna happen because it refers to forums, which breaks rule IV.

No it doesn't, that is another misconception about the rule.
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Klaus Devestatorie
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Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:44 pm

I'm certain it breaks A rule on it, otherwise I'd be condemned myself.
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Charlotte Ryberg
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Postby Charlotte Ryberg » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:37 am

Having read the arguments in favour, the honoured ambassador from Charlotte Ryberg expresses her interest in approving this resolution.

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Kalibarr
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Postby Kalibarr » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:35 am

Topid wrote:
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:This one aint gonna happen because it refers to forums, which breaks rule IV.

No it doesn't, that is another misconception about the rule.



Don't the "forums of out nation" mean something entirely different than the off site forums of a region? If you use it as the Ard recommends then your saying someone hacked a national legislature.

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Evil Wolf
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Postby Evil Wolf » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:05 am

Unibot wrote:
Opposed with all my lil' heart because of Rule IV.


THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS! :o
It's ok! You can trust me! I've been Commended!

Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

Mallorea and Riva should be a Game Moderator Game Administrator.

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Travancore-Cochin
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Postby Travancore-Cochin » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:27 pm

Kalibarr wrote:Don't the "forums of out nation" mean something entirely different than the off site forums of a region?

Doesn't matter.

Kalibarr wrote:If you use it as the Ard recommends then your saying someone hacked a national legislature.

Uh.. No. Firstly, a forum is not a legislature or a law-making body. It is, usually, a platform for interaction/communication between people. There are international-level forums too. Heard of the World Economic Forum?

Destruction of forums can be read by "nation simulation language"-purists as dismantling of a functional international forum.

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Omigodtheykilledkenny
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Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:31 pm

Change "forums" to "forum" (save the plural reference in the "Condemns" clause), and do something about the overlinking. It's extremely tacky.
Last edited by Omigodtheykilledkenny on Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yelda
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Postby Yelda » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:08 pm

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Change "forums" to "forum"

I've never understood why we refer to them as "forums" anyway. "Forums" would seem to refer plurally to all of the forums and sub-forums that make up the board. Collectively, the board should be referred to as "a forum" or "the forum". Singular.

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Topid
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Postby Topid » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:06 pm

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Change "forums" to "forum" (save the plural reference in the "Condemns" clause), and do something about the overlinking. It's extremely tacky.

Take that one up with Ard. I agree with you, but that's the only major part of this rule I dislike. She deleted a proposal because it didn't have the region tags...
Yelda wrote:
Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Change "forums" to "forum"

I've never understood why we refer to them as "forums" anyway. "Forums" would seem to refer plurally to all of the forums and sub-forums that make up the board. Collectively, the board should be referred to as "a forum" or "the forum". Singular.

I've always thought we always say 'forums' even when talking about RL stuff... I always say forums and never leave off the 's'. Hmmm, guess I'm part of the problem.
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:I'm certain it breaks A rule on it, otherwise I'd be condemned myself.

We only have four... As far as I can tell it is good by all four. Apparently no one has been concerned enough, I don't know anything about the incident you are referring to.

I finally got around to the grammar fixes. The only one I had issues with T-C was the Dismayed line because I liked the flow better without an and... (Comma splice ftw?) I think I made it grammatically correct a different way.
Last edited by Topid on Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Yelda
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Postby Yelda » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:20 pm

Topid wrote:I've always thought we always say 'forums' even when talking about RL stuff... I always say forums and never leave off the 's'. Hmmm, guess I'm part of the problem.


I do it too. I was just wondering aloud why we do it.

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Rougiers
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Postby Rougiers » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:22 pm

Have fun not getting this passed. :)

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Topid
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Postby Topid » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:23 pm

Rougiers wrote:Have fun not getting this passed. :)

I'll have fun, that much is for sure.
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Savaer
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Postby Savaer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:40 pm

Darkesia wrote:TWP has a treaty called the COPS treaty that deals specifically with forum destruction.

It's been a while since we have had to bring it out and dust it off.


There's a reason it's dusty. It's useless. It relies on too much reactivity and praying that an offender won't know they can change their IP extremely too easily after a unanimous ban. At least if you don't ban him, you can nick new IPs, but w/e. I don't know anything, right? I'm just some evil bastard without moral functions. Complete with a cat.

I actually was at one time lobbying to have a replacement to COPS made, anyone with membership in Imperial Britain can attest this, if not, I can go get the link, that would replace the major problem with COPS's under-protective measures (That is, means to update signataries of new IPs of offenders). Admittedly, it would also leave banning entirely to the individual signatary as opposed to a total blanket ban (Which would be highly counter-productive to the point of the damn thing.) But, again. I'm an evil bastard. *shrug*

I suppose since TRF went around trashing things and the RLA pretended he had "gone rogue." I am completely behind this sort of action against Unknown, especially after the snarky responses I received from Unknown's leadership.


Yeah, I shouldn't have been so nasty in my response, I do apologize for that. You don't have believe me. I personally have nothing to gain nor lose in you believing me.

However, a condemnation is not really an action which will do anything except give Azear et al a badge to flaunt.


Only wanted a condemn for the better part of oh... since they started C&C's. Wanna hit my main, too? Please? :)

Uniting to lock a raider region out of raiding and inter-regional political espionage... Now that is a punishment they will feel.

Let's work on both :)


Good luck. Almost the entire region has multiple military memberships over several regions. It's impossible to do it, not to mention I personally hold leadership positions in a few regions as well. They understand my reasons, accept them, despite not liking them. And I have respected their dislike. They also understand that I am dead serious when I say if another incident occurs as a result from our forsaken soldier that he will be removed.

Oh. And please refrain from calling me that con-artist, I would appreciate it immensely. After all, I *try* not to call defenders exactly what I think of them on the forums.
When night falls, expect there to be blood,
As night falls, expect there to be fear,
When night has fallen, embrace the screams of your foes,
For that is when Cruor shall speak to you.

Heras Terminus Altima Savaer,
Cruor-spawned blood-winged angel of Unknown,

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Darkesia
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Darkesia » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:02 am

One forum destroyer looks like another to me.

The Red Factions is identical to your beloved Rougiers. Raider or Defender, matters not to me. If you choose to support such activity, you are no better than they. I think it's worse to be the guy that encourages it in order to keep your hands clean of the actual deed. Not only is it dishonorable but cowardly.

But in all honesty, it doesn't matter one little bit what I think of this, since TWP is in a state of pouting about the broken 3WB and will probably vote no on everything for a long time. Sorta makes my job here useless, eh? heh
Blackbird wrote:Francoism is to fascism as Marxism is to peanut butter.

Greater Moldavi wrote:If I didn't say things like that then I wouldn't be...well me.

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Topid
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Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:19 pm

After recently receiving some very very interesting information I would like to twiddle my thumbs a bit on this proposal... We need an EXTRA long drafting period I think. Just a week or two at the most I've been told.
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Klaus Devestatorie
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Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:24 am

Condemning the region is the wrong way to go about it- There are several regions that I know of with COPs breakers inside, and yet you've never targeted them. Suggest you target the actual nation instead, cus Unknown would frankly love to have our own analogy written up in the WASC. (Yes, I'm enlisted with them etc etc)
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Topid
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Founded: Dec 29, 2008
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Postby Topid » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:32 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Condemning the region is the wrong way to go about it- There are several regions that I know of with COPs breakers inside, and yet you've never targeted them.

This is the only the second case of forum destruction I have ever seen. And the other was by a native of the region that just got pissed off in a tiny region I was in. But that's irrelevant. So no, I've never targeted another region for this because I haven't ever heard of this happening since the SC's introduction.
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Suggest you target the actual nation instead, cus Unknown would frankly love to have our own analogy written up in the WASC.

No.
And I fully realize Unknown has said that, it doesn't bother me at all.
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:(Yes, I'm enlisted with them etc etc)

I somewhat figured that by earlier comments discouraging the proposal.
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