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Was environmentalism taken too far in California?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Was rejection of a one point four billion dollar desal plant environmentalism taken too far?

No
22
52%
Yes
12
29%
Perhaps because the State of California needs more fresh water desperately???
8
19%
 
Total votes : 42

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NorthernPesos
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Was environmentalism taken too far in California?

Postby NorthernPesos » Mon Jan 20, 2025 2:12 pm

Perhaps I am being too optimistic and maybe I am reading too much into this but it seems to me as if even CNN is hinting that perhaps a rather narrow and dogmatic interpretation of "geo-engineering is evil" may have happened in California?

After all mega-scale desalination technology is here and it does seem as if in a situation such as was faced in California existed then it might have been wise to avoid being too perfectionist and narrow in the interpretation of "environmentalism" that has been happening time after time in California for decades it seems.


Even Canada's Green Party Leader Ms. Elizabeth May back in 2008 replied to my own municipal campaign writing with the comment through Facebook that : "Turning deserts green is one part of a full response to climate change." [Canada's Green Party Leader Ms. Elizabeth May].

I actually voted for her back in 2008 because I felt that this one sentence was worth my ballot.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/12/us/calif ... index.html

As water runs short in California, commission rejects $1.4 billion desalination plant

Stephanie Elam
By Stephanie Elam, CNN
4 minute read
Updated 11:33 PM EDT, Thu May 12, 2022

Los AngelesCNN —
As California battles a historic drought and a water crisis looms, the state’s coastline protection agency on Thursday unanimously rejected the development of a $1.4 billion desalination plant in Huntington Beach that would have converted ocean water into municipal water for Orange County residents.

Eleven members of the California Coastal Commission voted against the facility, which water treatment developer Poseidon Water has been trying to build for decades.

Poseidon said the plant would be capable of producing up to 50 million gallons of drinking water a day, helping to make the region more drought resilient.



The commission, which is charged with “protecting and enhancing” the state’s extensive coastline, heard public comments on the project throughout the day Thursday, with a majority of speakers opposing it. Others who expressed concern about a lack of water resources in the future argued that, whenever possible, additional water resources should be developed.

Poseidon released a statement following the vote thanking Gov. Gavin Newsom for his support and reiterating its belief that the plant would be an important tool in maintaining the state’s water supply.

“This was not the decision we were hoping for today,” said Poseidon Director of Communications Jessica Jones. “California continues to face a punishing drought, with no end in sight. … Every day, we see new calls for conservation as reservoir levels drop to dangerous lows. We firmly believe that this desalination project would have created a sustainable, drought-tolerant source of water for Orange County, just as it has for San Diego County.”

But desalination opponents argue less expensive and less harmful conservation tactics should be the first resort.

The commission is appointed or chosen by state lawmakers and the governor. Ahead of the vote, its staff recommended against the facility, pointing in part to desalination’s incredible energy consumption, its impacts on marine life, projected sea-level rise and the cost of the resulting water itself – with that cost being passed on to customers.

Commission staff did acknowledge in the report that its findings do not mean that the project is “unapprovable,” nor that it is completely against desalination, writing: “Staff acknowledge the need to develop new, reliable sources of water in southern California, and believe that well-planned and sited desalination facilities will likely play a role in providing these supplies.”

Desalination works by separating water molecules from salty seawater through reverse osmosis. The leftover high-salinity brine is sent back to the ocean.

One plant of this scale – the Claude “Bud” Lewis Carlsbad Desalination Plant in San Diego County – is already in service. Poseidon began operating that facility in late 2015, selling its entire output to the San Diego County Water Authority in a 30-year contract.
Last edited by NorthernPesos on Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hutsuls
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Postby Hutsuls » Mon Jan 20, 2025 2:15 pm

I think what happened in California was a mix of arson and natural calamity. They are hushing up arson because it will look bad on illegals who have taken sanctuary in California, who are a loyal voter base for democrats, and most importantly, if arson is proven then it will embolden other terrorist attacks.

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NorthernPesos
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Postby NorthernPesos » Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:05 pm

Hutsuls wrote:I think what happened in California was a mix of arson and natural calamity. They are hushing up arson because it will look bad on illegals who have taken sanctuary in California, who are a loyal voter base for democrats, and most importantly, if arson is proven then it will embolden other terrorist attacks.


It is true that those dry conditions and powerful winds set the stage for disaster but once those fires got going the firefighters seemed to experience a shortage of water to work with to fight the fires.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/la-wild ... -1.7427014
Why L.A. firefighters were short of water to fight the huge wildfires

Fire hydrants in Pacific Palisades went dry; tanker trucks, water bombers deployed

CBC News · Posted: Jan 09, 2025 12:59 PM EST | Last Updated: January 9



While battling the huge wildfires in Los Angeles, many firefighters suddenly found they had lost access to a crucial firefighting resource — water. Here's a look at how that happened and why.

What water problems did firefighters encounter?

Firefighters were still fighting Thursday to control a series of major fires in the Los Angeles area that have killed five people, ravaged communities and sent thousands of people frantically fleeing their homes.

A day earlier, firefighters fighting the massive blazes in the city's hilly Pacific Palisades neighourhood plugged their hoses into local fire hydrants and found they couldn't get the water flowing, local media such as the L.A. Times reported.

Janisse Quiñones, chief executive and chief engineer of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP), said the problem was restricted to hydrants at high elevations.

Quiñones said all water storage tanks in the Palisades had been emptied by 3 a.m. local time that morning.

Those three tanks had each contained 3.8 million litres (a million U.S. gallons of water).

LADWP noted that water continued to flow in the Palisades area through its main system.

It added that firefighting had caused "tremendous demand" in the region — roughly quadruple the usual demand.

That lowered the water pressure in the Palisades area.

The number of hoses needed for ground-level firefighting was particularly high due to the high winds that prevented water bombers from flying for much of the day.

Mark Pestrella, director of Los Angeles County Public Works, said at a news conference Thursday that "a firefight with multiple fire hydrants drawing water from municipal water systems is just not sustainable. That's why the air support is so important."

In response to a media question Thursday, Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass acknowledged she was frustrated by the water issues on Wednesday, but she noted these wildfires were an "unprecedented" event.

"We also know that the fire hydrants are not constructed to deal with this type of massive devastation," she added.

Last edited by NorthernPesos on Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:43 pm

No nothing anyone could have done could have prevented the fires. I am so tired of explaining this. The high winds made it impossible to do much of anything. the planes would have crashed. above 30 miles an hour and the wind blows the flame retardant away.

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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:46 pm

San Lumen wrote:No nothing anyone could have done could have prevented the fires. I am so tired of explaining this. The high winds made it impossible to do much of anything. the planes would have crashed. above 30 miles an hour and the wind blows the flame retardant away.

If the neighborhoods hadn't been NIMBY about controlled burns in their neighborhoods would it still have been as bad?
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:48 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No nothing anyone could have done could have prevented the fires. I am so tired of explaining this. The high winds made it impossible to do much of anything. the planes would have crashed. above 30 miles an hour and the wind blows the flame retardant away.

If the neighborhoods hadn't been NIMBY about controlled burns in their neighborhoods would it still have been as bad?


I can't say but i do know the high winds didn't help things and where the main cause.
Last edited by San Lumen on Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Breinot
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Postby Breinot » Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:49 pm

I read that it has something to do with the materials of the houses (too flammable).
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NorthernPesos
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Postby NorthernPesos » Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:57 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No nothing anyone could have done could have prevented the fires. I am so tired of explaining this. The high winds made it impossible to do much of anything. the planes would have crashed. above 30 miles an hour and the wind blows the flame retardant away.

If the neighborhoods hadn't been NIMBY about controlled burns in their neighborhoods would it still have been as bad?


I had to look that one up but that certainly is something that might have helped a lot.


NIMBY (/ˈnɪmbi/, or nimby),[1] an acronym for the phrase "not in my back yard",[2][3] is a characterization of opposition by residents to proposed real estate development and infrastructure developments in their local area, as well as support for strict land use regulations. It carries the connotation that such residents are only opposing the development because it is close to them and that they would tolerate or support it if it were built farther away. The residents are often called nimbys, and their viewpoint is called nimbyism. The opposite movement is known as YIMBY for "yes in my back yard".[4]

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Nilokeras
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Postby Nilokeras » Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:59 pm

Obviously not. You cannot throw enough water or fire retardant at a fire that big to put it out, and municipal water systems are not designed to funnel enough water through them at high enough pressures to make it worthwhile anyway.

The Lone Alliance wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No nothing anyone could have done could have prevented the fires. I am so tired of explaining this. The high winds made it impossible to do much of anything. the planes would have crashed. above 30 miles an hour and the wind blows the flame retardant away.

If the neighborhoods hadn't been NIMBY about controlled burns in their neighborhoods would it still have been as bad?


You can't really controlled burn your way out of this. Controlled burns can buy a bit of time and decrease the likelihood of low-intensity firestarts like cigarette butts from catching anything, but the most likely cause of the fire was a power line failing in the winds, throwing sparks - there's not much you can do about that.. Many of these neighbourhoods just should not have been built where they were. They're isolated and surrounded by rough terrain that's difficult to evacuate and subject to strong winds that mean fires move very, very quickly.

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NorthernPesos
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Postby NorthernPesos » Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:02 pm

Breinot wrote:I read that it has something to do with the materials of the houses (too flammable).


I am sure that that is a big problem as well but for the future elected official in California might want to take a serious look at the pretty impressive numbers for the largest sea water desalination plant in Israel.



https://ide-tech.com/en/project/sorek-d ... ion-plant/



Capacity: 640,000 m³/day
Technology: Reverse Osmosis (RO)
Water Source: Seawater
Contract type: BOT For 25 years
Usage: Potable Water
Location: Rishon Le Zion, Israel
Customer: Israel Water Authority
Commissioning date: 2013


About
The Sorek desalination plant is one of a kind and the largest seawater desalination plant operating with 16’’ elements in a unique vertical arrangement.
It provides potable water for millions of people, comprising 20% of the municipal water demand in Israel, thus greatly contributing to the country’s water system resilience (while minimizing the environmental impact).
In 2018 IDE sold Sorek 1 desalination plant to Dan Capital. The sale was required under a deal agreed by IDE with antitrust (competition) authorities allowing IDE to bid on a BOT tender for a second SWRO desalination plant at Soreq.

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NorthernPesos
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Postby NorthernPesos » Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:08 pm

San Lumen wrote:No nothing anyone could have done could have prevented the fires. I am so tired of explaining this. The high winds made it impossible to do much of anything. the planes would have crashed. above 30 miles an hour and the wind blows the flame retardant away.


Because the firefighters encountered problems when they hooked into hydrants at high elevations that seems to be the type of issue that engineers can make plans for for in the future.

Janisse Quiñones, chief executive and chief engineer of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP), said the problem was restricted to hydrants at high elevations." [CBC .ca/

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NorthernPesos
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Postby NorthernPesos » Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:22 pm

Vegas may have little choice but to pump ocean water in its raw state to desalination plants near vegas and also use the raw salt water for those who would want ocean water in their swimming pools.

The rejection of desalination projects in California may force officials in Vegas to resort to rather drastic measures for their residents and tourists.


https://lasvegassun.com/news/2022/aug/2 ... help-area/


Water pipeline could help area
BY GARY LEWEY, LAS VEGAS

Sunday, Aug. 21, 2022 | 2 a.m.
View more of the Sun's opinion section
Editorials - the Sun's viewpoint
Columnists - local and syndicated writers
Letters to the editor - readers' views
Write a letter to the editor

Looking at the Las Vegas Valley Water District board of directors agenda, I see a lot of maintenance activity and conservation discussion, but nothing on replenishing our water.

A solution could be to run a pipeline from the ocean, bringing saltwater for swimming pools and water features, as well as to a desalination facility to create drinking water. This is not unprecedented.

We have an underground pipeline for petroleum products, the Calnev pipeline which runs from Los Angeles and to Las Vegas. Actually, there are two parallel lines. Could one be converted to transport sea water, or could another water distribution pipe be buried next to these?

Saudi Arabia has a desalinating system powered by solar arrays. Of course, there are issues about the byproducts of desalination and costs, but nothing insurmountable. Israel, which has three times the population of Las Vegas, has a similar desert environment and, with a desalination system, has a surplus of water.

It’s also interesting that this petroleum pipeline runs to water-restricted states (California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico). Could this approach solve the Southwest’s drought permanently?

If nothing else, let’s include thoughts like this into our water solution conversations.
Last edited by NorthernPesos on Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:13 pm

Inasmuch as where it’s related to forcing firefighter crews to comply with environmental laws instead of letting them go help with the fires? Possibly.

But there were a lot of unforeseen problems here: wind, and CA has, to the best of my knowledge, been suffering from a drought for a number of years now.
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Postby Fjolmidlum » Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:36 pm

Environmentalism hasn't been taken far enough. I don't care where we talk about. Simple as.
irregardless, its the same difference and i literally could care less for all intensive purposes so you're point is mute per say
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:41 pm

The fires would be less of a problem if environmentalism was taken further, both in and out of California.
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Postby Adamede » Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:58 pm

Global warming is why these fires are getting so bad and that’s caused by a lack of environmentalism, so no.

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Postby Kostane » Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:02 pm

Why tf was the yes underneath the no, I misclicked……

Environmentalism has not gone far enough. We need to do more. Short-termism like this is exactly the problem — you build a water desalination plant just for it to get flooded in 10 years because of the environmental destruction wreaked by the plant. Plus, maybe if we stopped shielding people from the effects of climate change, they would actually do something about it.
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Postby Nu Elysium » Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:42 pm

"Was environmentalism taken too far-"
nope.
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Postby Durius » Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:59 am

Hutsuls wrote:I think what happened in California was a mix of arson and natural calamity. They are hushing up arson because it will look bad on illegals who have taken sanctuary in California, who are a loyal voter base for democrats, and most importantly, if arson is proven then it will embolden other terrorist attacks.

Portugal also had record fires recently. People too are blaming "illegals" and arsonists. I find it very funny, though, how everyone completely ignores the question of how were those arsonists able to cause so much destruction. Could it be because the climate in both places is similar and getting more and more extreme? Apparently we will never know!
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Postby Slembana » Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:14 am

No, in fact I agree with numerous other users who say that environmentalism hasn’t been taken far enough. Nowhere near far enough.
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Postby Cyptopir » Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:18 am

Hutsuls wrote:I think what happened in California was a mix of arson and natural calamity. They are hushing up arson because it will look bad on illegals who have taken sanctuary in California, who are a loyal voter base for democrats, and most importantly, if arson is proven then it will embolden other terrorist attacks.

For the first half of the post, I thought you could've had some idea of what was going on, but then it turned out to just be politically charged racism. Oh well.
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:51 am

NorthernPesos wrote:
Breinot wrote:I read that it has something to do with the materials of the houses (too flammable).


I am sure that that is a big problem as well but for the future elected official in California might want to take a serious look at the pretty impressive numbers for the largest sea water desalination plant in Israel.



https://ide-tech.com/en/project/sorek-d ... ion-plant/



Capacity: 640,000 m³/day
Technology: Reverse Osmosis (RO)
Water Source: Seawater
Contract type: BOT For 25 years
Usage: Potable Water
Location: Rishon Le Zion, Israel
Customer: Israel Water Authority
Commissioning date: 2013


About
The Sorek desalination plant is one of a kind and the largest seawater desalination plant operating with 16’’ elements in a unique vertical arrangement.
It provides potable water for millions of people, comprising 20% of the municipal water demand in Israel, thus greatly contributing to the country’s water system resilience (while minimizing the environmental impact).
In 2018 IDE sold Sorek 1 desalination plant to Dan Capital. The sale was required under a deal agreed by IDE with antitrust (competition) authorities allowing IDE to bid on a BOT tender for a second SWRO desalination plant at Soreq.

You’re like a dog with a bone about this desalinization thing. It would have had zero…zero effect on these fires. We just had two exceptionally wet winters, it wasn’t the availability of water, it was a system that was never designed to have to move that much water that quickly over that much area because this was an exceptional fire with very specific conditions.

Ah, who am I kidding. This will just bounce right off these brand new fire experts heads and I’ll be reading about fucking Israel’s Desalinization plant for the next six months like that has even the smallest relevance to the fire.
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Postby NorthernPesos » Tue Jan 21, 2025 4:46 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
NorthernPesos wrote:
I am sure that that is a big problem as well but for the future elected official in California might want to take a serious look at the pretty impressive numbers for the largest sea water desalination plant in Israel.



https://ide-tech.com/en/project/sorek-d ... ion-plant/




You’re like a dog with a bone about this desalinization thing. It would have had zero…zero effect on these fires. We just had two exceptionally wet winters, it wasn’t the availability of water, it was a system that was never designed to have to move that much water that quickly over that much area because this was an exceptional fire with very specific conditions.

Ah, who am I kidding. This will just bounce right off these brand new fire experts heads and I’ll be reading about fucking Israel’s Desalinization plant for the next six months like that has even the smallest relevance to the fire.



If the reservoirs had been more full due to less demand due to the volume of desalinated water that could have been easily produced then the engineers could have figured out a way so that the fire hydrants at higher elevations would not have been dry.

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Tue Jan 21, 2025 4:48 pm

NorthernPesos wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:You’re like a dog with a bone about this desalinization thing. It would have had zero…zero effect on these fires. We just had two exceptionally wet winters, it wasn’t the availability of water, it was a system that was never designed to have to move that much water that quickly over that much area because this was an exceptional fire with very specific conditions.

Ah, who am I kidding. This will just bounce right off these brand new fire experts heads and I’ll be reading about fucking Israel’s Desalinization plant for the next six months like that has even the smallest relevance to the fire.



If the reservoirs had been more full due to less demand due to the volume of desalinated water that could have been easily produced then the engineers could have figured out a way so that the fire hydrants at higher elevations would not have been dry.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Is this like, a bet you made with someone or something?
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Postby Socialist Ancomistan » Tue Jan 21, 2025 4:49 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No nothing anyone could have done could have prevented the fires. I am so tired of explaining this. The high winds made it impossible to do much of anything. the planes would have crashed. above 30 miles an hour and the wind blows the flame retardant away.

If the neighborhoods hadn't been NIMBY about controlled burns in their neighborhoods would it still have been as bad?


I think the best compromise in this regard is PHIMBY (Public Housing in My Backyard)
Equality > Freedom

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