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tug of war taxonomy

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

tug of war taxonomy

Postby Xerographica » Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:50 pm

how joe boo g n

we've all watched squid games already? there's the one contest where two teams engage in tug of war. even if you haven't seen it, i'm sure you can guess what happens to the losing team. seems straightforward that, when your life is on the line, you should be able to pull directly on the rope with all your force.

on inaturalist i recently created a project for ficus observations with some disagreement about their identification. i called the project "ficus identification tug-of-war". does it really count as tug of war though?

too many of you are sticklers for strict definitions. i remember my thread about omniscience and how so many of you were up in arms with my idea of partial omniscience. inaturalist is a good example of partial omniscience. a bunch of people all over the world having partial access to each other's eyeballs and brains. of course there are disagreements that would make the elephant-touching-blind-men very proud.

regardless of how certain you are about the identity of an insect, bird or tree, your direct force on the rope is limited to a tiny tug. participation is unlimited, but each participant can only directly exert the same tiny tug on the rope. it doesn't matter if you're the scientist who named the species. it doesn't matter if it's your 1st time seeing the species. everyone only gets 1 vote. it's completely and terrifyingly fair. but it's an entirely different story when it comes to indirect force on the rope. indirect force is unlimited. i can bribe or bully all my plant friends to join my side of the rope. i can spend my very last penny on recruiting people to join my team.

most people have the strong notion that tug of war would be far more effective if indirect force on the rope was severely limited or eliminated entirely. what's hard to see or understand is that organisms don't randomly exert force. exerting force obviously requires effort. in terms of evolution, all else being equal, an organism that randomly exerts effort would lose to an organism that doesn't. so if you see someone exerting considerable indirect force on a rope, chances are really good that they have their reasons. they must have some knowledge or information that compels them to personally sacrifice so much. for all we know, maybe their life is on the line.

i started off sharing the example of squid games. is this thread about squid games? not for me personally. do you want this thread to be about squid games? i dunno. but if you exert too much force in this direction, you might get this thread closed, because of derailing or hijacking or whatever.

with this in mind, i'm going to share another example... the los angeles fires. is this thread about the fires? again, not for me personally. there's already a thread dedicated to discussing the la fires. for me personally this thread is about what all my threads are about... sound economics.

i'm sure my long time "fans" can guess where i'm going with the fire example. same place i went with the traffic signal example. the supply should have been determined by demand. whoever was the 1st person to see fire and/or smell smoke, should have had the opportunity to directly pull on the rope as if their life depended on it. the same goes for all the subsequent people with some evidence of fire. a big enough initial direct tug on the rope (aka 'demand') should have quickly resulted in a proportionally large response of 1st responders and the national guard (aka 'supply').

i have no idea how many people in the pacific palisades called 911 to report the fire, but it counts as indirect force on the rope. how much direct force would they have been willing to exert on the rope? $100,000? $2,000,000? we don't know, because our system isn't based on sound economics. you all very mistakenly believe that it isn't necessary to know the true and actual demand for public goods. nothing could be further from the truth. limited resources can only be correctly distributed when everyone is free to directly pull on the rope as if their life depends on it.

in school most of us learned who carl linnaeus was..."the father of modern taxonomy". it's pretty straightforward that organizing and categorizing organisms based on shared traits is useful to understanding life. the problem is, there's never been the linnaeus equivalent for tug of war. we all know what democracy, committees, voting, markets, dictatorships are, but it's not the same thing as their formal taxonomy. here are some relevant 'traits'...

participation - who has the opportunity to exert force on the rope?
force type - direct and/or indirect
force limits - extremely limited to unlimited
transparency - who can see the contest?

all group decisions, from deciding what to name an organism, to deciding whether fruit trees should be planted in public parks, involve a certain "genus" and "species" of tug of war. once we name and correctly organize all the different species it will be easier to understand them. then we will be one step closer to sound economics.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:58 pm

Oh gods, not again.
He/Him
With eyes ablaze with crimson fire and grey boronic wings, his armour wrought from Powersteel, heir of the Mecha King
Heroes' judgement: vengeance! Unicorns: they're in pursuit! But with the power of robot might they'll answer now to Hoots!
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The Lazarene Republic
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Founded: Dec 07, 2024
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Lazarene Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:05 pm

What’s with this obsession of yours? How haven’t you given up already?

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Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State
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Posts: 166
Founded: Jan 03, 2025
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:05 pm

Xerographica wrote:how joe boo g n

we've all watched squid games already? there's the one contest where two teams engage in tug of war. even if you haven't seen it, i'm sure you can guess what happens to the losing team. seems straightforward that, when your life is on the line, you should be able to pull directly on the rope with all your force.

on inaturalist i recently created a project for ficus observations with some disagreement about their identification. i called the project "ficus identification tug-of-war". does it really count as tug of war though?

too many of you are sticklers for strict definitions. i remember my thread about omniscience and how so many of you were up in arms with my idea of partial omniscience. inaturalist is a good example of partial omniscience. a bunch of people all over the world having partial access to each other's eyeballs and brains. of course there are disagreements that would make the elephant-touching-blind-men very proud.

regardless of how certain you are about the identity of an insect, bird or tree, your direct force on the rope is limited to a tiny tug. participation is unlimited, but each participant can only directly exert the same tiny tug on the rope. it doesn't matter if you're the scientist who named the species. it doesn't matter if it's your 1st time seeing the species. everyone only gets 1 vote. it's completely and terrifyingly fair. but it's an entirely different story when it comes to indirect force on the rope. indirect force is unlimited. i can bribe or bully all my plant friends to join my side of the rope. i can spend my very last penny on recruiting people to join my team.

most people have the strong notion that tug of war would be far more effective if indirect force on the rope was severely limited or eliminated entirely. what's hard to see or understand is that organisms don't randomly exert force. exerting force obviously requires effort. in terms of evolution, all else being equal, an organism that randomly exerts effort would lose to an organism that doesn't. so if you see someone exerting considerable indirect force on a rope, chances are really good that they have their reasons. they must have some knowledge or information that compels them to personally sacrifice so much. for all we know, maybe their life is on the line.

i started off sharing the example of squid games. is this thread about squid games? not for me personally. do you want this thread to be about squid games? i dunno. but if you exert too much force in this direction, you might get this thread closed, because of derailing or hijacking or whatever.

with this in mind, i'm going to share another example... the los angeles fires. is this thread about the fires? again, not for me personally. there's already a thread dedicated to discussing the la fires. for me personally this thread is about what all my threads are about... sound economics.

i'm sure my long time "fans" can guess where i'm going with the fire example. same place i went with the traffic signal example. the supply should have been determined by demand. whoever was the 1st person to see fire and/or smell smoke, should have had the opportunity to directly pull on the rope as if their life depended on it. the same goes for all the subsequent people with some evidence of fire. a big enough initial direct tug on the rope (aka 'demand') should have quickly resulted in a proportionally large response of 1st responders and the national guard (aka 'supply').

i have no idea how many people in the pacific palisades called 911 to report the fire, but it counts as indirect force on the rope. how much direct force would they have been willing to exert on the rope? $100,000? $2,000,000? we don't know, because our system isn't based on sound economics. you all very mistakenly believe that it isn't necessary to know the true and actual demand for public goods. nothing could be further from the truth. limited resources can only be correctly distributed when everyone is free to directly pull on the rope as if their life depends on it.

in school most of us learned who carl linnaeus was..."the father of modern taxonomy". it's pretty straightforward that organizing and categorizing organisms based on shared traits is useful to understanding life. the problem is, there's never been the linnaeus equivalent for tug of war. we all know what democracy, committees, voting, markets, dictatorships are, but it's not the same thing as their formal taxonomy. here are some relevant 'traits'...

participation - who has the opportunity to exert force on the rope?
force type - direct and/or indirect
force limits - extremely limited to unlimited
transparency - who can see the contest?

all group decisions, from deciding what to name an organism, to deciding whether fruit trees should be planted in public parks, involve a certain "genus" and "species" of tug of war. once we name and correctly organize all the different species it will be easier to understand them. then we will be one step closer to sound economics.

You should read about gestalt science rather than get into the difficult semantics of 'partial omniscience'; it far more aptly describes what you're talking about. You should also be aware of theories such as organicism and the poststructural critique of different classification systems because using Linnaeus, with limited philosophical scope, goes far beyond what 'modern taxonomy' is intended for. This scope is really narrow to classifying organisms from an anthroprocentric level; to be even partially omniscient, one must be aware of, simultaneously, all the perspectives of all subjectives of all living things from all time. How other animals would see their place may differ from views of predation, bottom feeders, etc, that we attribute to them. Given that other animals such as dogs, cats, dolphins, and primates are all capable of experiencing complex emotions, relationally they may place at least a rudimentary value on things that we simply have not yet conceptualised.
Last edited by Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State on Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ESC is a theoretical superposition that postulates a form of governance (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberocracy), and/or ideology (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberism), depending on its context, of which augurs for an Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State (ESCS). For more information, please see either my factbooks, or my Substack.
https://escism.substack.com/

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The Lazarene Republic
Diplomat
 
Posts: 991
Founded: Dec 07, 2024
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Lazarene Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:12 pm

Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:
Xerographica wrote:how joe boo g n

we've all watched squid games already? there's the one contest where two teams engage in tug of war. even if you haven't seen it, i'm sure you can guess what happens to the losing team. seems straightforward that, when your life is on the line, you should be able to pull directly on the rope with all your force.

on inaturalist i recently created a project for ficus observations with some disagreement about their identification. i called the project "ficus identification tug-of-war". does it really count as tug of war though?

too many of you are sticklers for strict definitions. i remember my thread about omniscience and how so many of you were up in arms with my idea of partial omniscience. inaturalist is a good example of partial omniscience. a bunch of people all over the world having partial access to each other's eyeballs and brains. of course there are disagreements that would make the elephant-touching-blind-men very proud.

regardless of how certain you are about the identity of an insect, bird or tree, your direct force on the rope is limited to a tiny tug. participation is unlimited, but each participant can only directly exert the same tiny tug on the rope. it doesn't matter if you're the scientist who named the species. it doesn't matter if it's your 1st time seeing the species. everyone only gets 1 vote. it's completely and terrifyingly fair. but it's an entirely different story when it comes to indirect force on the rope. indirect force is unlimited. i can bribe or bully all my plant friends to join my side of the rope. i can spend my very last penny on recruiting people to join my team.

most people have the strong notion that tug of war would be far more effective if indirect force on the rope was severely limited or eliminated entirely. what's hard to see or understand is that organisms don't randomly exert force. exerting force obviously requires effort. in terms of evolution, all else being equal, an organism that randomly exerts effort would lose to an organism that doesn't. so if you see someone exerting considerable indirect force on a rope, chances are really good that they have their reasons. they must have some knowledge or information that compels them to personally sacrifice so much. for all we know, maybe their life is on the line.

i started off sharing the example of squid games. is this thread about squid games? not for me personally. do you want this thread to be about squid games? i dunno. but if you exert too much force in this direction, you might get this thread closed, because of derailing or hijacking or whatever.

with this in mind, i'm going to share another example... the los angeles fires. is this thread about the fires? again, not for me personally. there's already a thread dedicated to discussing the la fires. for me personally this thread is about what all my threads are about... sound economics.

i'm sure my long time "fans" can guess where i'm going with the fire example. same place i went with the traffic signal example. the supply should have been determined by demand. whoever was the 1st person to see fire and/or smell smoke, should have had the opportunity to directly pull on the rope as if their life depended on it. the same goes for all the subsequent people with some evidence of fire. a big enough initial direct tug on the rope (aka 'demand') should have quickly resulted in a proportionally large response of 1st responders and the national guard (aka 'supply').

i have no idea how many people in the pacific palisades called 911 to report the fire, but it counts as indirect force on the rope. how much direct force would they have been willing to exert on the rope? $100,000? $2,000,000? we don't know, because our system isn't based on sound economics. you all very mistakenly believe that it isn't necessary to know the true and actual demand for public goods. nothing could be further from the truth. limited resources can only be correctly distributed when everyone is free to directly pull on the rope as if their life depends on it.

in school most of us learned who carl linnaeus was..."the father of modern taxonomy". it's pretty straightforward that organizing and categorizing organisms based on shared traits is useful to understanding life. the problem is, there's never been the linnaeus equivalent for tug of war. we all know what democracy, committees, voting, markets, dictatorships are, but it's not the same thing as their formal taxonomy. here are some relevant 'traits'...

participation - who has the opportunity to exert force on the rope?
force type - direct and/or indirect
force limits - extremely limited to unlimited
transparency - who can see the contest?

all group decisions, from deciding what to name an organism, to deciding whether fruit trees should be planted in public parks, involve a certain "genus" and "species" of tug of war. once we name and correctly organize all the different species it will be easier to understand them. then we will be one step closer to sound economics.

You should about gestalt science rather than get into the difficult semantics of 'partial omniscience'; it far more aptly describes what you're talking about...

I don’t think he really cares, it’s just a pretense to make yet another thread about “pragmatarianism”, his belief that the weights of votes should correspond to the amount of money voters are willing to spend (i.e. a “vote” of $5 is half the value of $10), basically a formalized system of plutocracy disguised as a more efficient and representative form of election. He usually demonstrates this with a fruit ranking forum anecdote.

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Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State
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Posts: 166
Founded: Jan 03, 2025
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:20 pm

The Lazarene Republic wrote:I don’t think he really cares, it’s just a pretense to make yet another thread about “pragmatarianism”, his belief that the weights of votes should correspond to the amount of money voters are willing to spend (i.e. a “vote” of $5 is half the value of $10), basically a formalized system of plutocracy disguised as a more efficient and representative form of election. He usually demonstrates this with a fruit ranking forum anecdote.

Oh so like tax choice but applied to the voting process. Ah yes, that certainly won't result in the wealthiest 1% controlling 99% of the votes lmao
ESC is a theoretical superposition that postulates a form of governance (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberocracy), and/or ideology (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberism), depending on its context, of which augurs for an Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State (ESCS). For more information, please see either my factbooks, or my Substack.
https://escism.substack.com/

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Kerwa
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Posts: 3680
Founded: Jul 24, 2021
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Kerwa » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:21 pm

They aren’t bringing firefly back, no matter how many threads you make about this. Just cancel netflix, or whatever.

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Nilokeras
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Founded: Jul 14, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:24 pm

Xerographica wrote: inaturalist is a good example of partial omniscience. a bunch of people all over the world having partial access to each other's eyeballs and brains. of course there are disagreements that would make the elephant-touching-blind-men very proud.

regardless of how certain you are about the identity of an insect, bird or tree, your direct force on the rope is limited to a tiny tug. participation is unlimited, but each participant can only directly exert the same tiny tug on the rope. it doesn't matter if you're the scientist who named the species. it doesn't matter if it's your 1st time seeing the species. everyone only gets 1 vote. it's completely and terrifyingly fair. but it's an entirely different story when it comes to indirect force on the rope. indirect force is unlimited. i can bribe or bully all my plant friends to join my side of the rope. i can spend my very last penny on recruiting people to join my team.


this is of course not true. experts weigh in all the time on iNaturalist, and very frequently are definitive. I should know, I've done my fair of expert IDs. not to mention that bullying/bribing people into agreeing with a particular ID is almost certainly against the Community Guidelines.

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Bombadil
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Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:30 pm

There's no such thing as fish..
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:50 pm

Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:
The Lazarene Republic wrote:I don’t think he really cares, it’s just a pretense to make yet another thread about “pragmatarianism”, his belief that the weights of votes should correspond to the amount of money voters are willing to spend (i.e. a “vote” of $5 is half the value of $10), basically a formalized system of plutocracy disguised as a more efficient and representative form of election. He usually demonstrates this with a fruit ranking forum anecdote.

Oh so like tax choice but applied to the voting process. Ah yes, that certainly won't result in the wealthiest 1% controlling 99% of the votes lmao

you just nonchalantly said "tax choice" like it's a common concept? do the wealthy people already know about it as well? if so, how come they aren't all pulling on the rope like their life depends on it? fun fact, in most cases, wealthy people would be on both sides of the rope, with no good guess about which side would win. pick any contentious topic and you will find wealthy people on both sides. you can't generalize preferences with wealth any more than you can with gender or race. everyone, regardless of race, age, sex, height, education, religion or wealth, should have the freedom to directly exert all their force on any rope. the results will maximize humanity's progress and well-being.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Xerographica
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Posts: 6386
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:54 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Xerographica wrote: inaturalist is a good example of partial omniscience. a bunch of people all over the world having partial access to each other's eyeballs and brains. of course there are disagreements that would make the elephant-touching-blind-men very proud.

regardless of how certain you are about the identity of an insect, bird or tree, your direct force on the rope is limited to a tiny tug. participation is unlimited, but each participant can only directly exert the same tiny tug on the rope. it doesn't matter if you're the scientist who named the species. it doesn't matter if it's your 1st time seeing the species. everyone only gets 1 vote. it's completely and terrifyingly fair. but it's an entirely different story when it comes to indirect force on the rope. indirect force is unlimited. i can bribe or bully all my plant friends to join my side of the rope. i can spend my very last penny on recruiting people to join my team.


this is of course not true. experts weigh in all the time on iNaturalist, and very frequently are definitive. I should know, I've done my fair of expert IDs. not to mention that bullying/bribing people into agreeing with a particular ID is almost certainly against the Community Guidelines.

in no case does an expert on inaturalist have more direct influence on the rope than a random person. indirect influence? sure. but if you think unequal indirect influence is beneficial, then what's your argument against unequal direct influence?
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:56 pm

The Lazarene Republic wrote:What’s with this obsession of yours? How haven’t you given up already?

i'm going to die on this hill if it kills me.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

User avatar
Xerographica
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Posts: 6386
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:08 pm

Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:You should read about gestalt science rather than get into the difficult semantics of 'partial omniscience'; it far more aptly describes what you're talking about. You should also be aware of theories such as organicism and the poststructural critique of different classification systems because using Linnaeus, with limited philosophical scope, goes far beyond what 'modern taxonomy' is intended for. This scope is really narrow to classifying organisms from an anthroprocentric level; to be even partially omniscient, one must be aware of, simultaneously, all the perspectives of all subjectives of all living things from all time. How other animals would see their place may differ from views of predation, bottom feeders, etc, that we attribute to them. Given that other animals such as dogs, cats, dolphins, and primates are all capable of experiencing complex emotions, relationally they may place at least a rudimentary value on things that we simply have not yet conceptualised.

biological taxonomy has extremely limited participation. the fact that ficus carica and ficus cocculifolia are graft compatible does not factor into their taxonomy, which is why cocculifolia was wrongly lumped under sycomorus. a small handful of taxonomists can't correctly weigh or even know about all the possible differences and similarities between all organisms, any more than a small handful of elected representatives can correctly weigh or even know about all public goods. this is why so many public parks are devoid of fruit trees. there's a huge and tragic disparity between the supply of public goods and the demand for them. in order for the correct weight of all possible traits and all possible public goods to be determined, everybody needs the opportunity to participate in all the relevant tug of wars, by directly pulling on the rope with any amount of effort.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Kerwa
Senator
 
Posts: 3680
Founded: Jul 24, 2021
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Kerwa » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:25 pm

Bombadil wrote:There's no such thing as fish..


I have seen the dolphin with my own eyes, good sir!

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The Lazarene Republic
Diplomat
 
Posts: 991
Founded: Dec 07, 2024
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Lazarene Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:32 pm

Xerographica wrote:
The Lazarene Republic wrote:What’s with this obsession of yours? How haven’t you given up already?

i'm going to die on this hill if it kills me.

Death does tend to be fatal

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Ultra Earth
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Posts: 78
Founded: May 31, 2024
Corporate Police State

Postby Ultra Earth » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:35 pm

Xerographica wrote:very long snip

What the f00k did I just read?
[b]SUPER EARTH, but BASED.
PRO-LIFE, PRO-CAPITALIST, PRO-ISRAEL, AND PRO-RUSSIA.
TRANS/LGBTQ+ RIGHTS ARE NOT THE SAME AS HUMAN RIGHTS.
LEFTISM = SOCIALISM = COMMUNISM = FASCISM
REVERSE RACISM IS STILL RACISM, HATE SPEECH IS FREE SPEECH, DEI (DIVISION, EXCLUSION, AND INEQUALITY) IS A SCAM, AND CLIMATE CHANGE IS FAKE.
Copy and paste this into your sig if you passed Real Life 101 and know that Gender = Sex = Assigned Sex = Biological Sex and that there’s only 2 of them: MALE and FEMALE.

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Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State
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Posts: 166
Founded: Jan 03, 2025
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:36 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:Oh so like tax choice but applied to the voting process. Ah yes, that certainly won't result in the wealthiest 1% controlling 99% of the votes lmao

you just nonchalantly said "tax choice" like it's a common concept? do the wealthy people already know about it as well? if so, how come they aren't all pulling on the rope like their life depends on it? fun fact, in most cases, wealthy people would be on both sides of the rope, with no good guess about which side would win. pick any contentious topic and you will find wealthy people on both sides. you can't generalize preferences with wealth any more than you can with gender or race. everyone, regardless of race, age, sex, height, education, religion or wealth, should have the freedom to directly exert all their force on any rope. the results will maximize humanity's progress and well-being.


The wealthy don't need to concern themselves with tax choice when they spend far less money lobbying and infiltrating the neoliberal power structures so the whole rotten system turns into a kleptocracy lmao. I'm also not generalising wealthy people, I'm mapping the reality of what your system would become based on the failings of plutocratic governments from the past, bereft with rotten boroughs and an era where the average age was 20. I'm talking about Europe during the Industrial Revolution, because that's what life was like for society where the power of money bought power directly, which then convened incredibly regressive ideologies. It took whole generations to pushback against the repugnant levels of exploitation from business owners who were largely educated in classical liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism, of which only liberated them. It was modern liberal moralists, conservatives and the rise of marxists that banded together to strip away such a system that perpetuated that inequality in the first place. All your vision would achieve is the repeat of that history lol, and it's only now that we live in a society of universal, equal suffrage, as well as all the other political freedoms taken for granted, where the public intelligentsia can hold the elites to account. Of which, many have sided with the poor (as some elites did back then too) because of the expansion of people's voices being listened to which has influenced the expanse of academia, literature, and so on...

Tax choice would be the reality if your pragmatarianism was the system in place, I guarantee.
Last edited by Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State on Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ESC is a theoretical superposition that postulates a form of governance (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberocracy), and/or ideology (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberism), depending on its context, of which augurs for an Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State (ESCS). For more information, please see either my factbooks, or my Substack.
https://escism.substack.com/

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Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 166
Founded: Jan 03, 2025
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:46 pm

Xerographica wrote:biological taxonomy has extremely limited participation. the fact that ficus carica and ficus cocculifolia are graft compatible does not factor into their taxonomy, which is why cocculifolia was wrongly lumped under sycomorus. a small handful of taxonomists can't correctly weigh or even know about all the possible differences and similarities between all organisms, any more than a small handful of elected representatives can correctly weigh or even know about all public goods. this is why so many public parks are devoid of fruit trees. there's a huge and tragic disparity between the supply of public goods and the demand for them. in order for the correct weight of all possible traits and all possible public goods to be determined, everybody needs the opportunity to participate in all the relevant tug of wars, by directly pulling on the rope with any amount of effort.


This perfectionism won't work under humans who cannot organise collectively and properly, which again is why you need to read about gestaltism and not try and palm people off with something that doesn't really have a foundationalist or coherentist epistemic justification. The actual solution for this is a gestalt AI conscious that has singularity. You're also revealing a poor conceptuality of governance, as though you can equate an online site to a national government without considering the hyperobjectivities of all the interpolation that goes into it: administration, local councils, devolved governmnents, etc. It's still bad that we have all these issues, but without being able to increase that rate of which things get done (your view will literally result in the reverse when you implement some artificial structure on top of the bulk of the constructivism that comes through the social practice of discourse) and by forcing more tug-pulling, less will get done.
ESC is a theoretical superposition that postulates a form of governance (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberocracy), and/or ideology (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberism), depending on its context, of which augurs for an Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State (ESCS). For more information, please see either my factbooks, or my Substack.
https://escism.substack.com/

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Bombadil
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:48 pm

Kerwa wrote:
Bombadil wrote:There's no such thing as fish..


I have seen the dolphin with my own eyes, good sir!


A particularly poor example.

Still, with enough money, under Xero's philosophy, you can taxon a dolphin however you want.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Kerwa
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Kerwa » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:58 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Kerwa wrote:
I have seen the dolphin with my own eyes, good sir!


A particularly poor example.

Still, with enough money, under Xero's philosophy, you can taxon a dolphin however you want.


Dolphins are royal fish. There’s case law on it.

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Bombadil
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:04 pm

Kerwa wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
A particularly poor example.

Still, with enough money, under Xero's philosophy, you can taxon a dolphin however you want.


Dolphins are royal fish. There’s case law on it.


Only when washed up on shore..

..and in Scotland, the law applies only to beached whales too heavy to be drawn by a ‘wain pulled by six large oxen’
Last edited by Bombadil on Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:19 pm

Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:The wealthy don't need to concern themselves with tax choice when they spend far less money lobbying and infiltrating the neoliberal power structures so the whole rotten system turns into a kleptocracy lmao. I'm also not generalising wealthy people, I'm mapping the reality of what your system would become based on the failings of plutocratic governments from the past, bereft with rotten boroughs and an era where the average age was 20. I'm talking about Europe during the Industrial Revolution, because that's what life was like for society where the power of money bought power directly, which then convened incredibly regressive ideologies. It took whole generations to pushback against the repugnant levels of exploitation from business owners who were largely educated in classical liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism, of which only liberated them. It was modern liberal moralists, conservatives and the rise of marxists that banded together to strip away such a system that perpetuated that inequality in the first place. All your vision would achieve is the repeat of that history lol, and it's only now that we live in a society of universal, equal suffrage, as well as all the other political freedoms taken for granted, where the public intelligentsia can hold the elites to account. Of which, many have sided with the poor (as some elites did back then too) because of the expansion of people's voices being listened to which has influenced the expanse of academia, literature, and so on...

i'm failing to see any sort of coherent logic in your viewpoint. i don't have the opportunity to bribe inaturalist admins for my team to win. instead, i have the opportunity to bribe my plant friends, with plants of course. well, perhaps they are my friends because i already gave them a bunch of plants, so they owe me. i call in my favors and they join my team, so my side wins. this is called rigmarole. from your viewpoint, is my unlimited indirect influence on the rope beneficial or detrimental?

Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:Tax choice would be the reality if your pragmatarianism was the system in place, I guarantee.

yeah, so, hi, my name is xero and i'm the biggest proponent of tax choice.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:35 pm

Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:
Xerographica wrote:biological taxonomy has extremely limited participation. the fact that ficus carica and ficus cocculifolia are graft compatible does not factor into their taxonomy, which is why cocculifolia was wrongly lumped under sycomorus. a small handful of taxonomists can't correctly weigh or even know about all the possible differences and similarities between all organisms, any more than a small handful of elected representatives can correctly weigh or even know about all public goods. this is why so many public parks are devoid of fruit trees. there's a huge and tragic disparity between the supply of public goods and the demand for them. in order for the correct weight of all possible traits and all possible public goods to be determined, everybody needs the opportunity to participate in all the relevant tug of wars, by directly pulling on the rope with any amount of effort.


This perfectionism won't work under humans who cannot organise collectively and properly, which again is why you need to read about gestaltism and not try and palm people off with something that doesn't really have a foundationalist or coherentist epistemic justification. The actual solution for this is a gestalt AI conscious that has singularity. You're also revealing a poor conceptuality of governance, as though you can equate an online site to a national government without considering the hyperobjectivities of all the interpolation that goes into it: administration, local councils, devolved governmnents, etc. It's still bad that we have all these issues, but without being able to increase that rate of which things get done (your view will literally result in the reverse when you implement some artificial structure on top of the bulk of the constructivism that comes through the social practice of discourse) and by forcing more tug-pulling, less will get done.

my hoa just planted 12 large crape myrtle trees in our small park, and removed the one fruit tree that i donated and planted... instead of clearing all the dead and dry tinder bushes from around our community, while huge swaths of los angeles literally burned. my hoa fiddled while rome burned. sure, with the current system lots of stuff will be supplied, but it really isn't what's actually demanded. this is true at the smallest level of government, like how back in august i told the hoa board that creating a defensible space should be our #1 priority. and it's even truer at the largest level of government where reasonable voices are even harder to hear. the most important thing to understand is that this can be proven on the smallest scale... with forums and with inaturalist and any other websites where people supply the content.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Dogmeat
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:58 pm

Once again Xero attempts to prove a point about his pet economic theory by relating it to subject he knows nothing about, and badly misrepresents.

What is this, the fifth time? tenth? I haven't been keeping count.
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Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State
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Founded: Jan 03, 2025
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State » Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:37 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State wrote:
This perfectionism won't work under humans who cannot organise collectively and properly, which again is why you need to read about gestaltism and not try and palm people off with something that doesn't really have a foundationalist or coherentist epistemic justification. The actual solution for this is a gestalt AI conscious that has singularity. You're also revealing a poor conceptuality of governance, as though you can equate an online site to a national government without considering the hyperobjectivities of all the interpolation that goes into it: administration, local councils, devolved governmnents, etc. It's still bad that we have all these issues, but without being able to increase that rate of which things get done (your view will literally result in the reverse when you implement some artificial structure on top of the bulk of the constructivism that comes through the social practice of discourse) and by forcing more tug-pulling, less will get done.

my hoa just planted 12 large crape myrtle trees in our small park, and removed the one fruit tree that i donated and planted... instead of clearing all the dead and dry tinder bushes from around our community, while huge swaths of los angeles literally burned. my hoa fiddled while rome burned. sure, with the current system lots of stuff will be supplied, but it really isn't what's actually demanded. this is true at the smallest level of government, like how back in august i told the hoa board that creating a defensible space should be our #1 priority. and it's even truer at the largest level of government where reasonable voices are even harder to hear. the most important thing to understand is that this can be proven on the smallest scale... with forums and with inaturalist and any other websites where people supply the content.


You're still missing the point... for someone to "pull the rope" directly requires unobtainable social organisation where everyone agrees and thinks rationally about when that rope ought to be pulled directly. The fact that those with authority in your HOA who had the power and all the reasons to want to remove these fire risks didn't, doesn't mean your system will work any better, and that's owing to the fallibility of humans, as well as structural-functionalism. A classic fable for this is the 'Boy Who Cried Wolf' who directly called upon the villagers to kill a wolf that wasn't there who he claimed was eating their livestock, all for his amusement. He called them again, to which the villagers came, and yet again were deceived. When the wolf did come, of course, the villagers lost all trust in the boy, and so would leave the animals to their fates. This isn't to say the analogy logically disproves what you say, but the reasons that explains why all civilisations that follow a common hierarchy, are centralised, and evolved from tribal over band society, is because of how trust transforms in a society where its people don't all know each other by virtue of the population size. This approach might work in insular communities, or small-scale ones with people who provide each other with mutual aid to pursue the same outcome, but not when you scale up. This can't be applied everywhere, either. A layman with no insight nor understanding about science has no place in writing an academic book about quantum mechanics, even though it is technically something that concerns everyone.

At the same time, you're treating this as though your suggestion should be taken as paramount over other people's, which whilst may seem frustrating when your concerns are proven correct (assuming I can take your own words in good faith here), is often something people conveniently let slide when their views turn out to be laughably wrong. What you also say about forums is also something that's present in council meetings, and whilst is not perfect and I believe there needs to be a lot more public forums that allow for constant dialectical discourse, the administration (which at times can feel Kafkaesque with the amount of red tape) is essential for the purposes of accountability and tracing the actions of every participant. Without such a bureaucracy, corruptibility becomes a certainty. Sure, I agree that what should be in government now needs to be technocratic, accelerationist, etc, and I also agree that everyone needs to participate, but the methodology which also needs to account for the many who are simply apolitical, and for bad actors, can't be one that has this framework which I can't even assess too deeply when you haven't really given much substance on what it would actually be. How would elections work? What are people voting for? Does this extend to the judiciary? What if nobody's politically educated?
Last edited by Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State on Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ESC is a theoretical superposition that postulates a form of governance (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberocracy), and/or ideology (Evolutionary Syncretic Cyberism), depending on its context, of which augurs for an Evolutionary Syncretic Cybercratic State (ESCS). For more information, please see either my factbooks, or my Substack.
https://escism.substack.com/

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