by Nuraghe » Sat Jan 11, 2025 9:36 am
by Kostane » Sat Jan 11, 2025 9:49 am
Nuraghe wrote:At the moment, nationalist populism that is hostile to globalisation is one of the political forces growing the most in the developed world. The reasons for this are not necessarily relevant to the scope of this thread, but it is unlikely that nationalist populism will lose relevance any time soon. From Brexit to Trump, the shared ideal of these national populists is the preservation of the nation-state system and the dismantling/weakening of the various international architectures established over the past century. Generally speaking, most people in western countries are in favour of a balance between national sovereignty and international cooperation. Nationalist populism and advocacy for increased international integration are minority viewpoints at present.
But I would like to present a case for the abolition of national sovereignty and the transition to supranational global authority. I believe that the strengthening of international institutions and the weakening of the nation-state could be a useful means by which we achieve world peace and global economic justice & development.
At the present, the world is ravaged by conflict, poverty, and inequality. Globalisation has created the most peaceful and prosperous period in world history, but this peace and prosperity is largely concentrated in the developed world. Those in the global south are less likely to reap the fruits of globalisation.
One of the major barriers to coordinating global development efforts is the idea of the "national interest". Those who are already wealthy do not want to sacrifice the lead that they have and are fine with much of the world suffering.
The means through which this should be achieved, in my opinion, would be rather conservative: the gradual strengthening of existing international institutions, such as the United Nations and World Trade Organisation, at the expense of national authority.
Eventually, we should seek the replacement of national armies with a global army,
and the establishment of a worldwide system of the free movement of people, goods, and capital.
by Major-Tom » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:13 am
by Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:22 am
Nuraghe wrote:Eventually, we should seek the replacement of national armies with a global army, and the establishment of a worldwide system of the free movement of people, goods, and capital.
George Orwell wrote:Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.
by Arctic Lands » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:26 am
by Sardinia-Sicily » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:36 am
by Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:45 am
Sardinia-Sicily wrote:it would either have to be Authoritarian
George Orwell wrote:Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.
by Western European Khilafat » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:48 am
by Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:52 am
Western European Khilafat wrote:United Abrahamic theocracy my beloved.
(But with arenae where we can do theological combat, the Only weapons being logic)
George Orwell wrote:Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.
by Kostane » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:02 am
Western European Khilafat wrote:United Abrahamic theocracy my beloved.
(But with arenae where we can do theological combat, the Only weapons being logic)
by Dumb Ideologies » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:10 am
by Nuraghe » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:16 am
Kostane wrote:How? Sure, abolishing every government would technically achieve “world peace.” However, domestic conflicts and terrorism would continue. Such a large government would, inevitably, be unable to have the domestic focus to respond to these threats. The government would either have to be authoritarian to make quick decisions, or be too inefficient to ever respond.
Kostane wrote:There’s also no reason why a unified world government specifically would be key. We could instead just have stronger multilateral institutions to promote economic equity and world peace.
Kostane wrote:Why would this change under your concept of a global government? Who would be in power under your government? How would decisions be made? If it is by popular vote, developed countries like the U.S., Russia, and China are sure to dominate, making economic inequality worse. If it is authoritarian, that only magnifies the problem as the leader will solely focus on their own region.
Kostane wrote:You’ve described self-interest rather than national interest.
Kostane wrote:A nation itself is not the root cause of self-interest.
Kostane wrote:But I thought there’d be no war in this magical world…?
Kostane wrote:You mean capitalism? You know that exists right now, right?
by Nuraghe » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:21 am
Major-Tom wrote:The sovereignty of people who make up a respective nation is inherent, something that cannot simply be taken away. Further, any attempts to create some sort of global superstate would mark a ruinous disaster.
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Nuraghe wrote:Eventually, we should seek the replacement of national armies with a global army, and the establishment of a worldwide system of the free movement of people, goods, and capital.
Yeah, that just sounds like NAFTA and the TPP on steroids, or Hillary Clinton's private position that there should "be no barriers to trade." ie. no customs regulations, safety standards, nor tariffs.
I am all for internationalism, but hell no to the type that just wants to triple down on building a neoliberal capitalist hellscape and telling everyone that the flaws of neoliberal globalization will be fixed by more neoliberal globalization.
Sardinia-Sicily wrote:it would either have to be Authoritarian, meaning much of the world gets neglected and left to their own devices, or it would be a weak democracy that has no way of enforcing anything.
Sardinia-Sicily wrote: Not to mention the fact that uniting nations together would almost certainly start fighting in the streets, ie: Turkey and Armenia, or the Balkans.
Sardinia-Sicily wrote:If you really wanted this to work, you would need to start at the regional levels, like a stronger European Union or a South American and North American Federations, before making such a drastic move, like a whole United World.
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Sardinia-Sicily wrote:it would either have to be Authoritarian
It would be authoritarian, designed to suppress the working classes even further.
I mean, how else would it remain in power when more manufacturing is done by literal slaves in "developing" areas all while more people in the developed world lose their jobs? When salaries/wages, and benefits are further undercut, forcing more people into poverty to boot!
Western European Khilafat wrote:United Abrahamic theocracy my beloved.
by Port Carverton » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:21 am
Nuraghe wrote:At the moment, nationalist populism that is hostile to globalisation is one of the political forces growing the most in the developed world. The reasons for this are not necessarily relevant to the scope of this thread, but it is unlikely that nationalist populism will lose relevance any time soon. From Brexit to Trump, the shared ideal of these national populists is the preservation of the nation-state system and the dismantling/weakening of the various international architectures established over the past century. Generally speaking, most people in western countries are in favour of a balance between national sovereignty and international cooperation. Nationalist populism and advocacy for increased international integration are minority viewpoints at present.
These institutions are also plagued by inefficiency due to divergent interest among the countries. Additionally, most people will not have any loyalty to some vague ideal of a shared humanity. Even some countries in the West are struggling with identity by defining it by passport.But I would like to present a case for the abolition of national sovereignty and the transition to supranational global authority. I believe that the strengthening of international institutions and the weakening of the nation-state could be a useful means by which we achieve world peace and global economic justice & development. At the present, the world is ravaged by conflict, poverty, and inequality. Globalisation has created the most peaceful and prosperous period in world history, but this peace and prosperity is largely concentrated in the developed world. Those in the global south are less likely to reap the fruits of globalisation. One of the major barriers to coordinating global development efforts is the idea of the "national interest". Those who are already wealthy do not want to sacrifice the lead that they have and are fine with much of the world suffering. The means through which this should be achieved, in my opinion, would be rather conservative: the gradual strengthening of existing international institutions, such as the United Nations and World Trade Organisation, at the expense of national authority. Eventually, we should seek the replacement of national armies with a global army, and the establishment of a worldwide system of the free movement of people, goods, and capital.
There are cases against this though. What motivated this was my reading of the book "Reclaiming the State" by William Mitchell and Thomas Fazi, two progressive economists who argue against the neoliberal model of globalisation and defend the nation-state as a vehicle for progressive change. I do not really agree with their argument - largely because they try to tie post-nationalism/supranationalism with fascism and fail to accept any conceptualisation of post-nationalism/supranationalism that is not tied to fascism - but I did understand some of their criticisms around the economy. Both left-wing populists and right-wing populists believe that globalisation has contributed to or caused the neglect of the working classes in western countries as jobs are shipped overseas, and support for globalisation often comes from those who support neoliberal economic policies that harm working people. Nationalists/right-wing populists also usually invoke ideas about cultural clashes between migrants and natives.
And so I ask the question: should we abolish national sovereignty and transition towards global authority? Or is the nation-state system preferable?
Note: This thread is about both the ideal of internationalism and the reality of it. I recognize fully that abolition of the nation-state and transitioning to a supranational global authority is very unrealistic in the short-term, and even in the long-term we are likely only to see small steps in this direction. But feel free
by Kostane » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:24 am
Nuraghe wrote:Kostane wrote:How? Sure, abolishing every government would technically achieve “world peace.” However, domestic conflicts and terrorism would continue. Such a large government would, inevitably, be unable to have the domestic focus to respond to these threats. The government would either have to be authoritarian to make quick decisions, or be too inefficient to ever respond.
I don't necessarily agree and the government would not need to be "large". We could have an extensively decentralised system of non-sovereign states capable of solving issues. Global authority does not need to be a centralised state that behaves like a nation-state does.
Kostane wrote:There’s also no reason why a unified world government specifically would be key. We could instead just have stronger multilateral institutions to promote economic equity and world peace.
But multilateralism in an international society of nation-states will always find itself subverted by nationalism.
Kostane wrote:Why would this change under your concept of a global government? Who would be in power under your government? How would decisions be made? If it is by popular vote, developed countries like the U.S., Russia, and China are sure to dominate, making economic inequality worse. If it is authoritarian, that only magnifies the problem as the leader will solely focus on their own region.
The US, Russia, EU, and UK have a combined population of just under one billion, less than China, India, and the continent of Africa, so I am not sure why the popular vote would be dominated by developed countries. The global south would be extremely empowered in a democratic global community, and with a greater voice in global affairs, more attention would be directed to their issues.
Kostane wrote:You’ve described self-interest rather than national interest.
The two terms are used almost synonymously in international relations and foreign policy literature, and that's because they are synonymous.
Kostane wrote:A nation itself is not the root cause of self-interest.
The nation is not synonymous with the nation-state.
Kostane wrote:But I thought there’d be no war in this magical world…?
I am disappointed. Until this point it seemed like you were actually engaging with what I said but you ruined it with this condescending remark. I never once asserted that there would be no war nor would supranationalism be "magical".
Kostane wrote:You mean capitalism? You know that exists right now, right?
We do not have an international system in which people, goods, and capital can be moved freely. We have made great strides over the last century but there are still extensive barriers to trade and migration globally. Further, the free movement of people, goods, and capital is not necessarily capitalist, nor is capitalism defined by it. Capitalism necessitates the ability for goods and capital to move, but not people and they do not need to move "freely". Theoretically you could have the free movement of people, goods, and capital without capitalism. But that's besides the point.
by Ariddia » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:28 am
Nuraghe wrote:But I would like to present a case for the abolition of national sovereignty and the transition to supranational global authority. I believe that the strengthening of international institutions and the weakening of the nation-state could be a useful means by which we achieve world peace and global economic justice & development. At the present, the world is ravaged by conflict, poverty, and inequality. Globalisation has created the most peaceful and prosperous period in world history, but this peace and prosperity is largely concentrated in the developed world. Those in the global south are less likely to reap the fruits of globalisation.
by Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:36 am
Nuraghe wrote:No safety standards is an issue, but why is having no barriers to trade a bad thing? Free trade is supported almost universally by economists because it is measurably better than protectionism in every metric. The only time it ever has a use is for political point scoring. If you wish to drive economic development and alleviate poverty, as I do, free trade is the only viable solution. Protectionism makes people poorer and encourages inequality.
George Orwell wrote:Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.
by Port Carverton » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:43 am
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Nuraghe wrote:No safety standards is an issue, but why is having no barriers to trade a bad thing? Free trade is supported almost universally by economists because it is measurably better than protectionism in every metric. The only time it ever has a use is for political point scoring. If you wish to drive economic development and alleviate poverty, as I do, free trade is the only viable solution. Protectionism makes people poorer and encourages inequality.
Is that why the rust belt is struggling? Is that why people lose their livelihoods as jobs are shipped overseas? So much for alleviating poverty.
And frankly, most economists show strong biases and it isn't really a science, especially since many of them always comment on how we need to cut more taxes on the rich (they're the lowest since the gilded age now) and further deregulate, and they tend to have economic interests of their own that cause them to advocate for that.
by Technoscience Leftwing » Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:46 am
by Pale Dawn » Sat Jan 11, 2025 1:07 pm
by Japanese-Manchu Union » Sat Jan 11, 2025 1:43 pm
by Nuraghe » Sat Jan 11, 2025 2:51 pm
Port Carverton wrote:While I disagree with those movements, they're right that globalisation isn't favoring most people. Yes, it has helped people in third world countries to earn better wages with industrialization, but at the same time those people work in terrible conditions and fast social changes destabilize their societies.
Kostane wrote:What is the difference between this system and the current system of sovereign states?
Kostane wrote:The same is true of your proposed system.
Kostane wrote:China and India are both developed nations.
Moreover, how would there be any agreement under your system? If you are right about conflicting interests, then the U.S., Russia, the EU, and UK would vote against legislation detrimental to them. China would do the same, as would India. This means that with that many perspectives, agreement would be nearly impossible.
Kostane wrote:Not true. National interest refers to a specific interest of a nation-state, rather than self-interest which happens on an individual level. Without a nation-state, there is still self-interest.
Kostane wrote:You've asserted there would be global peace. Also, it is magical to assume there's an agreement among 8 billion people.
Kostane wrote:Those barriers to trade and migration can be eroded without a single world government. There's something called the World Trade Organization. Under it, tariffs are not allowed, except for special circumstances. This helps promote trade without nationally defined barriers. There's, once again, no reason why the abolishment of national sovereignty is necessary.
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