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Colonialism thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Can colonialism ever be a good thing?

Yes
50
27%
No
125
66%
Only Western colonialism
13
7%
 
Total votes : 188

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Liberal Malaysia
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Colonialism thread

Postby Liberal Malaysia » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:31 am

Since the Jean-Marie Le Pen thread seems to have gone off on a colonial tangent, I figured it would be a good idea for players to continue their discussion here. Is colonialism ever a good thing? Why or why not? Poll included.

Kreigsreich of Iron argues that the empires of Europe should never have decolonized while Adamede and others argue that imperialism has only ever brought misery and death.

As for me, I believe the truth is more complicated than that. America, HK and Singapore wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for British colonialism. Taiwan wouldn't have a separate national identity if not for Japanese colonialism. Without Western colonialism, the rest of the world wouldn't be able to enjoy the modern conveniences that we all take for granted, such as electricity, running water, internet access, air conditioning, roads, cars, airplanes and so on and so forth.

Colonialism gave us the English language and the ideas of freedom and democracy that have proven so subversive around the world.

I'm not saying Western colonialism has been perfect. Even the British, one of the most progressive and benevolent imperialists in modern history, had their black spots. We have the massacres in Kenya and India, for instance. We have a legacy of divide & conquer that continues to plague former colonies such as my own country to this very day. The British, for the longest time, were more interested in exploiting the natives and the natural resources of the places that they conquered while looking down on their subjects with racist disdain, a condescending attitude reminiscent of today's woke white liberal saviors who view "oppressed minorities" as being in need of "saving". The British also practiced slavery and the slave trade once, although they were also among the first to abolish these outdated and inhumane institutions and to enforce its abolition around the globe, something that cannot be said of Arab and Muslim societies even to this day.

As for non-Western colonialism, nothing good has ever come of Arab and Muslim imperialism and territorial aggression. Absolutely nothing at all. Whatever Western empires have been rightly or wrongly accused of historically, Islamic empires are guilty of hundreds of times over. I've already condemned Islamic imperialism, or Islamism, repeatedly in the Islamism thread and elsewhere.

One might even argue that Islamic imperialism persists to this very day in a more subtle, insidious form, aided by gullible liberals and far-leftists who hate the West and everything that it stands for. Multiculturalism, political correctness, woke ideology, open borders especially for Muslim migrants, criminalizing "hate speech" and "disinformation", deliberately turning a blind eye to Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, among other things, all serve to facilitate a total Muslim takeover of Europe. The genocidal atrocities of Oct. 7 are another example of Muslim imperialism and aggression in the 21st century. Islamic colonialism and imperialism have absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Only Western, and perhaps even Japanese colonialism in the case of Taiwan, possess any redeeming qualities. Islamic and other forms of non-Western imperialism have been nothing other than pure evil.

As for colonialism more generally, it can be a good thing if done properly. For instance, it would be nice if my country was invaded and conquered by the United States, but not by China or Iran.
Last edited by Liberal Malaysia on Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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United Bongo States of the New America
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Postby United Bongo States of the New America » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:34 am

Colonialism and imperialism are always bad. Every action has outcomes, but that doesn't make it moral. Ayaan Hirsi Ali suggests investing in progressive Islam to address issues related to Islam. However, this approach has not been observed in the actions of certain individuals who criticize Muslims and Islam.
Last edited by United Bongo States of the New America on Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vastiuq
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Postby Vastiuq » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:35 am

It is bad 100% but also like you said you can't deny that it did influence a lot of people. It also made history interesting, at least for me
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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:38 am

Colonialism takes many different forms, in modern times mostly through neocolonialism, which is ultimately agreed upon to be a very bad concept by civil society.

Also, colonialism did not give us the English language or the concepts of freedom or democracy, the English gave us the English language, and the concepts of freedom and democracy have existed for thousands of years.

Whatever you think of past colonialism by European powers, the fact that cannot be denied is that they led to the deaths of millions upon millions, and did not significantly increase quality of life among even European commoners until industrialisation and liberalism.
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Vastiuq
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Postby Vastiuq » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:40 am

Kvatchdom wrote:Colonialism takes many different forms, in modern times mostly through neocolonialism, which is ultimately agreed upon to be a very bad concept by civil society.

Also, colonialism did not give us the English language or the concepts of freedom or democracy, the English gave us the English language, and the concepts of freedom and democracy have existed for thousands of years.

Whatever you think of past by European powers, the fact that cannot be denied is that they led to the deaths of millions upon millions, and did not significantly increase quality of life among even European commoners until industrialisation and liberalism.


The English colonialism is the main reason the language is so common today
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Durius
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Postby Durius » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:41 am

Liberal Malaysia wrote:Colonialism gave us the English language and the ideas of freedom and democracy that have proven so subversive around the world.

Colonialism gave the West the ideas of freedom of democracy that were prevalent in the New World. It was good for the West. It wasn't so good for the free and democratic nations and cultures that were destroyed.

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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:42 am

Vastiuq wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:Colonialism takes many different forms, in modern times mostly through neocolonialism, which is ultimately agreed upon to be a very bad concept by civil society.

Also, colonialism did not give us the English language or the concepts of freedom or democracy, the English gave us the English language, and the concepts of freedom and democracy have existed for thousands of years.

Whatever you think of past by European powers, the fact that cannot be denied is that they led to the deaths of millions upon millions, and did not significantly increase quality of life among even European commoners until industrialisation and liberalism.


The English colonialism is the main reason the language is so common today

But it did not give us the English language. It existed beforehand.
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Southglory
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Postby Southglory » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:42 am

Durius wrote:
Liberal Malaysia wrote:Colonialism gave us the English language and the ideas of freedom and democracy that have proven so subversive around the world.

Colonialism gave the West the ideas of freedom of democracy that were prevalent in the New World. It was good for the West. It wasn't so good for the free and democratic nations and cultures that were destroyed.


Lol what.
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Liberal Malaysia
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Postby Liberal Malaysia » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:44 am

Deleted.
Last edited by Liberal Malaysia on Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unogonduria
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Postby Unogonduria » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:44 am

"Only Western Colonialism" Oh who tf is that stupid to pick that?
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Vastiuq
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Postby Vastiuq » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:44 am

Kvatchdom wrote:
Vastiuq wrote:
The English colonialism is the main reason the language is so common today

But it did not give us the English language. It existed beforehand.

'
True. But he most likely meant that it spread the language not created it
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DashOfCarolinian
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Postby DashOfCarolinian » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:46 am

I feel like the discussion around colonialism forgets that it isn't just limited to Europe. Think Hokkaido. Integral part of Japan that has forever been Japanese, right? Wrong, it was colonized in 1869, not even that long ago!
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Cyptopir
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Postby Cyptopir » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:48 am

DashOfCarolinian wrote:I feel like the discussion around colonialism forgets that it isn't just limited to Europe. Think Hokkaido. Integral part of Japan that has forever been Japanese, right? Wrong, it was colonized in 1869, not even that long ago!

justice for the ainu people
they're still being discriminated against, yet no one talks about it so no one knows
Last edited by Cyptopir on Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:49 am

Vastiuq wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:But it did not give us the English language. It existed beforehand.

'
True. But he most likely meant that it spread the language not created it

There would very likely be another lingua franca if not for British Imperialism. That's just how globalisation works.
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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:49 am

Cyptopir wrote:
DashOfCarolinian wrote:I feel like the discussion around colonialism forgets that it isn't just limited to Europe. Think Hokkaido. Integral part of Japan that has forever been Japanese, right? Wrong, it was colonized in 1869, not even that long ago!

justice for the ainu people
they're still being discriminated against, yet no one talks about it so no one knows

Yes, an exceptionally interesting people, it's terrible what was done to them.
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Kasdados
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Postby Kasdados » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:54 am

In my opinion, colonialism as a concept has existed since the dawn of man - the dawn of animals, actually. Organisms do not like being contained. They want to spread out, and gain as much territory as possible. Because with as much territory as possible, you gain as much resources as possible, and thus as much chances for children as possible.

If you’re confused, let me put it this way. Do you think the primordial animals of ancient North America appreciated Proto-Native-American’s entering via the Bering land-bridge? Do you think the now-extinct creatures of Africa appreciated being hunted down by arrivals?
Last edited by Kasdados on Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Durius
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Postby Durius » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:54 am

Southglory wrote:
Durius wrote:Colonialism gave the West the ideas of freedom of democracy that were prevalent in the New World. It was good for the West. It wasn't so good for the free and democratic nations and cultures that were destroyed.


Lol what.

Which part do you need me to explain to you? That there were indigenous nations in North America that had way greater freedoms and democracy than those in Europe? That the Jesuits and other authors reported on that and those works and ideas made their way to Europe and became very popular, sparking the Enlightenment? Or that the indigenous nations of North America were wiped out by colonialism? Please do clarify what is causing you confusion.

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Southglory
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Postby Southglory » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:55 am

Cyptopir wrote:
DashOfCarolinian wrote:I feel like the discussion around colonialism forgets that it isn't just limited to Europe. Think Hokkaido. Integral part of Japan that has forever been Japanese, right? Wrong, it was colonized in 1869, not even that long ago!

justice for the ainu people
they're still being discriminated against, yet no one talks about it so no one knows


Probably won't happen anytime soon.
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Cyptopir
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Postby Cyptopir » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:58 am

Kasdados wrote:In my opinion, colonialism as a concept has existed since the dawn of man - the dawn of animals, possibly. Organisms do not like being contained. They want to spread out, and gain as much territory as possible. Because with as much territory as possible, you gain as much resources as possible, and thus as much chances for children as possible.

If you’re confused, let me put it this way. Do you think the primordial animals of ancient North America appreciated Proto-Native-American’s arriving? Do you think the now-extinct creatures of Africa appreciated being hunted down by arrivals?

Excellent job comparing colonizing and genociding to hunting animals in prehistoric times. Makes you look very good.
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Southglory
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Postby Southglory » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:58 am

Durius wrote:
Southglory wrote:
Lol what.

Which part do you need me to explain to you? That there were indigenous nations in North America that had way greater freedoms and democracy than those in Europe? That the Jesuits and other authors reported on that and those works and ideas made their way to Europe and became very popular, sparking the Enlightenment? Or that the indigenous nations of North America were wiped out by colonialism? Please do clarify what is causing you confusion.


Well I'd say the part with no sources for one. Second the exclusion of European history with democracy before the Europeans discovered the Americas.
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Pale Dawn
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Postby Pale Dawn » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:00 am

Kvatchdom wrote:
Pale Dawn wrote:Quite right!
Without Roman law our entire legal structure would be nonexistent. Without roman law the concept of civil liberties as we know them would be impossible.

Not impossible, there were thinkers before and after Rome independent of it.



The likelihood that civil liberties as we know and understand them would have progressed in the same way and presentation is extremely low. Would some version of some civil liberties have developed ? Sure. but not the same. That is a long shot in the dark.

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Kasdados
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Postby Kasdados » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:00 am

Cyptopir wrote:
Kasdados wrote:In my opinion, colonialism as a concept has existed since the dawn of man - the dawn of animals, possibly. Organisms do not like being contained. They want to spread out, and gain as much territory as possible. Because with as much territory as possible, you gain as much resources as possible, and thus as much chances for children as possible.

If you’re confused, let me put it this way. Do you think the primordial animals of ancient North America appreciated Proto-Native-American’s arriving? Do you think the now-extinct creatures of Africa appreciated being hunted down by arrivals?

Excellent job comparing colonizing and genociding to hunting animals in prehistoric times. Makes you look very good.

Well, didn’t we technically genocide those animals?

Plus, via your own principles - you’re degrading the quality of animal life. Via saying that, you don’t think that animals are equal to humans, or as undeserving of suffering as ourselves. Speciesist.
Last edited by Kasdados on Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Cyptopir
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Postby Cyptopir » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:02 am

Kasdados wrote:
Cyptopir wrote:Excellent job comparing colonizing and genociding to hunting animals in prehistoric times. Makes you look very good.

Well, didn’t we technically genocide those animals?

No, we did not systematically kill mammoths because we hate them and think their culture is stinky and ours better. We hunted them for food, ffs.
They're just not comparable.
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Vastiuq
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Postby Vastiuq » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:02 am

Kasdados wrote:
Cyptopir wrote:Excellent job comparing colonizing and genociding to hunting animals in prehistoric times. Makes you look very good.

Well, didn’t we technically genocide those animals?

Plus, via your own principles - you’re degrading the quality of animal life. Via saying that, you don’t think that animals are equal to humans, or as undeserving of suffering as ourselves. Speciesist.


Animals are in no way equal to human lives, besides humans had to eat somehow
Last edited by Vastiuq on Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kasdados
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Postby Kasdados » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:02 am

Cyptopir wrote:
Kasdados wrote:Well, didn’t we technically genocide those animals?

No, we did not systematically kill mammoths because we hate them and think their culture is stinky and ours better. We hunted them for food, ffs.
They're just not comparable.

Well, isn’t commercial gain - one of the most primary reasons for colonisation - effectively comparable to collecting food?
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"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law" — Galatians 5:22-23.

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