Intimacy boycotts (4B movement)

[Saiwana]

As part of the fall out from the 2024 US Presidential election, there are a bunch of liberal women that are throwing temper tantrums over their candidate (Kamala Harris) losing to Donald Trump, and a lot of disappointment over the first woman POTUS not being achieved.

Taking inspiration from South Korea's 4B movement (which is a radical Feminist project that never quite took off in its country of origin), they're claiming that they'll boycott all intimate relationships with all men to try to punish men who voted for Donald Trump, while the other side of the coin for it is that it has nothing to do with men and that the women doing this, just don't feel safe doing anything that might risk pregnancy anymore- if there are more limited to no options for terminating pregnancy or preventing it because of the political environment/climate they're anticipating, such as perhaps a national level abortion ban or contraceptive pill deliveries through the mail being blocked/stopped.

My wider question now is: do physical intimacy boycotts (sex strikes) actually ever work in effecting the social/political change/demands it is trying to accomplish or does it backfire more often that not? I would think that if they're mad at social conservatives for limiting their reproductive health choices/options and in response they're being abstinent, that this is just giving those social conservatives they supposedly despise exactly what they want ideologically and it is a case of "Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face."

I believe this ultimately won't succeed because almost half or more of women commonly vote against (what is perceived by many) to be within their own self interests. This is not good leverage in my view, because it will alienate or push someone to look elsewhere for what has been taken away. In the case of many young men in the US context, you can't take away something that was never given to begin with; so the people who're supposed to feel "punished" by this won't be deterred.

What do you believe will happen in terms of the prospects for this form of protest? Are there examples throughout history where this tactic has worked or is it doomed to failure? Why or why not? Is this good leverage in your view or exceptionally flawed? What would your reaction be to this if your significant other (if you had one) was doing this protest and it was effecting you even if you didn't directly bring about what they're complaining about? Would it ever be possible for the women to do something that would cause the men to do the same? Please keep this discussion of ongoing current gender war issues PG-13 and respectful. Discuss.

[Floofybit]

Wouldn't change my vote

[Holy Marsh]

I thought this started a while. I think my wife started it.

[Southglory]

Women ain't a monolith, therefore I don't imagine this'll last too long.

[Siluvia]

This won’t work for a variety of reasons.

Most of these women never would have dated Trump supporters anyway, considering how strongly they feel about this issue. So instead of punishing Trump-supporting men, they are punishing Harris-supporting men .

Also, the fact is that a majority of women won’t participate in this. As the saying goes, there are plenty of other fish in the sea. You would need to have at least somewhere between 60% and 70% of women participating in this to make a real impact, and frankly, I don’t see that happening.

If anything, an intimacy boycott would be viewed as a positive by many of those who it’s meant to target, as it would cut down on the amount of premarital sex, contraceptive use, and abortions that take place.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

I believe movements of this sort are much more likely to work on a local level in small communities where the women organizing it can actually engage with each other in meatspace.

That said, I can see reasonable androphilic women in conservative areas being much less interested in risking involvement in romantic relationships both to avoid engaging with men they view as revolting due to their political leanings as well due to concerns about unwanted pregnancies, especially given the world any kids are going to be born into. Who wants to get involved with people who hold despicable views, who personally contributed to making the world a shittier place to live in and for the most part are proud of their decision to do so?

They don't necessarily need to consciously be part of a movement in order to still find themselves uninterested in romantic involvements.

As for giving social conservatives what they want, social conservatives aren't the main bloc that's going to feel the effects, it'll be the types who want women to make themselves available to them but also don't believe in bodily autonomy for women. They can't have it both ways and this will be a reminder of that. The ones who talk about how women won't stay pure while also having no problem fucking women they consciously know they'd never date or commit to. You know, the average meathead conservative leaning guy who votes for conservatives because the people they hurt never include him.

[Ethel mermania]

I think people need to stop taking tik tok seriously.

[Almighty Biden]

Much ado about nothing.

[Delvian States]

I think people need to stop taking tik tok seriously.

On this point, I agree. TikTok rots the brain and causes dopamine overload. Human beings haven't evolved yet a capacity to absorb that much dopamine safely.

[Neanderthaland]

Not one reference to Aristophanes.

For shame. No points.

[Ethel mermania]

Not one reference to Aristophanes.

For shame. No points.

Still the first page. Plenty of time to mention Lysistrata

[Reploid Productions]

I mean, as Soviet Haaregrad already noted, one need not be formally part of an organized movement to be participating in it. Women across the US are further re-calibrating their "is this person date-able/fuckable" metrics to take current events on board. There were already articles online about conservative men bemoaning the fact that they were having a difficult time on the dating scene clear back during Trump's first term; I sincerely doubt that is going to improve during round two in a post-Roe world.

[La Xinga]

Which Trump-voter seeks to marry a woman who's this far to the left? Seems like it's only punishing male Kamala voters, lol.

I thought this started a while. I think my wife started it.

damn

[Tinhampton]

This is literally the first time I have ever seen anyone call 4B "intimacy boycotts," and I've talked to a couple of South Koreans in my time.

I mean, as Soviet Haaregrad already noted, one need not be formally part of an organized movement to be participating in it. Women across the US are further re-calibrating their "is this person date-able/fuckable" metrics to take current events on board. There were already articles online about conservative men bemoaning the fact that they were having a difficult time on the dating scene clear back during Trump's first term; I sincerely doubt that is going to improve during round two in a post-Roe world.

"Single and childless" has also been a fairly recent theme of Thought Catalog's, a website about relationships (mostly toxic) and movies (mostly horror) which had its heyday ten years ago, vanished, and is now better than ever. They did run an article about 4B, once, six months ago, which was a retread of an earlier in-depth study into the phenomenon they did after Man vs Bear took off on TikTok.

[Rusozak]

Which Trump-voter seeks to marry a woman who's this far to the left? Seems like it's only punishing male Kamala voters, lol.

They all secretly want a fash-bashing Antifa dommy mommy to tell them what to do.

Ow that hurt my brain to type.

[La Xinga]

Which Trump-voter seeks to marry a woman who's this far to the left? Seems like it's only punishing male Kamala voters, lol.

They all secretly want a fash-bashing Antifa dommy mommy to tell them what to do.

Ow that hurt my brain to type.

There was this article a bit ago about liberal women having a desire for conservative men. I would find it but it may violate NS's policy regarding fetish discussion.

[Saiwana]

I mean, as Soviet Haaregrad already noted, one need not be formally part of an organized movement to be participating in it. Women across the US are further re-calibrating their "is this person date-able/fuckable" metrics to take current events on board. There were already articles online about conservative men bemoaning the fact that they were having a difficult time on the dating scene clear back during Trump's first term; I sincerely doubt that is going to improve during round two in a post-Roe world.

Doesn't Sweden as one example, give women everything in terms of benefits (relatively speaking) but that this has still failed to raise Sweden's birthrate to replacement level or above?

Everything that liberals have told Sweden that might or could convince women to have children again via making it affordable or easy for them to have families or participate- it has all supposedly failed. I know women aren't to be baby machines, but it begs the question among the social conservatives and other political camps- what is the point in keeping any policy direction that is failing? What is there to lose in going the opposite direction socially and politically?

[Kerwa]

Is the man v bear woman Canadian? It seems like she’d be Canadian, it’s the sort of thing a lot of Canadian women think about.

Anyway “intimacy” - I presume this means sex - boycotts aren’t real. If you think they are then it probably means you are unattractive. Or your standards are far too high. One of those. Remember, amongst all the shite they babble at you when you at school, one of the poorest pieces of advice they give you is the “let your reach exceed your grasp” type bullshit. It is a road to misery, as Diogenes would tell you.

[Fahran]

I'm not particularly impressed by the 4B Movement, perceive it as both fetishistic of Korean culture and TERF-adjacent, believe it will actively hinder efforts to persuade men to change their political behavior by doubling down on the sexism that alienated large numbers of them in the first place, and find it funny that its main precept is women threatening to remain single and childless when our current atomized society has set most of us on a trajectory to be single and childless in the next fifty years.

Women do possess the right to choose whether or not they sleep with or date someone, and should possess and exercise that right. Women should absolutely have a standard that the men they sleep with or date respect, value, and support them - something that really shouldn't have required a pseudo-feminist movement to achieve. That said, I think the 4B Movement is stupid and that there are much better ways to do feminism and exercise feminine self-respect.

I've no particular plans to participate. I like my boyfriend. I like the idea of marriage and motherhood. I think there are better ways to address issues related to women's health and rape culture. And I could go on and on. Honestly, I'm going to start throwing bell hooks quotes at these TikTok girlies.

Yes, I realize that I've basically become a "theory bro." That's still better than being affiliated with 4B for two months before I get a conventionally attractive Bumble match with vaguely sexist attitudes and begin making excuses for why he's different. That sort of embarrassment would drive me so far beyond feminism that I'd morph into the reincarnation of Phyllis Schlafly and just oppose my own rights.

Also, Lysistrata works a lot better as a play than as a protest movement.

What is there to lose in going the opposite direction socially and politically?

Dignity and the pretense of morality mostly.

Which Trump-voter seeks to marry a woman who's this far to the left? Seems like it's only punishing male Kamala voters, lol.

They all secretly want a fash-bashing Antifa dommy mommy to tell them what to do.

Ow that hurt my brain to type.

Good. Because it hurt my brain to read.

[My Globe]

I don't like the logic itself. As if intimacy is not a sensual relationship between specific people, but just another economic good like money, rice, or labor. "They will not be rewarded with our bodies," lol.

I wonder if these women worked as prostitutes.

[Nemaha County]

Whenever I hear about any of these crank movements like “4B” all I can think is that these women will not take took kindly towards being associated with MGTOW. This quote from the Anti-Defamation League sums it up well

Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) is a distinct faction of the “manosphere,” the broad set of male supremacist, anti-feminist, misogynist and sometimes violent extremist movements that exist largely online. The MGTOW movement began online in the early 2000s when bloggers drafted manifestos outlining their desire for men to separate themselves from women and form a single-gender society.

Alright, I am a cis white male, but am also probably the kind of person that would be referred to as “woke SJW” by the right wing. I don’t care what they think, I almost wear it is a badge of pride that they don’t enjoy my presence. Being said, I fail to see how 4B differs meaningfully from MGTOW.

You don’t accuse all black, white, Hispanic, Asian people of being “INSULT” without getting ostracized by society so I’m hoping that members of the 4B movement who paint every single male including those who have done nothing wrong to women, in a demonizing, negative light, are called out for their misplaced anger, by the rest of society.

Foregoing sex, marriage, procreation, and other aspects of human life, is a personal choice, not a political statement. And turning it into one strikes me as insanely petulant.

I am willing to keep an open mind towards anyone on this thread who believes otherwise and is willing to argue in good faith

[Necroghastia]

I don't like the logic itself. As if intimacy is not a sensual relationship between specific people, but just another economic good like money, rice, or labor. "They will not be rewarded with our bodies," lol.

I wonder if these women worked as prostitutes.

Maybe let's not make assumptions about peoples' sexual lives and history? That way lies trolling, baiting, etc.... and redder text than this.

[Fahran]

Whenever I hear about any of these crank movements like “4B” all I can think is that these women will not take took kindly towards being associated with MGTOW.

I feel like MGTOWs and WGTOWs spend a lot more time talking about going their own way than actually going their own way, and that this constitutes the principal flaw inherent to their movements.

[Nemaha County]

Whenever I hear about any of these crank movements like “4B” all I can think is that these women will not take took kindly towards being associated with MGTOW.

I feel like MGTOWs and WGTOWs spend a lot more time talking about going their own way than actually going their own way, and that this constitutes the principal flaw inherent to their movements.

You make a fair point. Not sure if that makes it more or less petulant and obnoxious. I think 4B has at least a tangential basis in reality, though not one I am willing to enable

[Fahran]

You make a fair point. Not sure if that makes it more or less petulant and obnoxious. I think 4B has at least a tangential basis in reality, though not one I am willing to enable

It's an exceedingly marginal movement in all honesty. There's like 4,000 followers in South Korea at the moment. Beyond that, we've had several home-grown equivalents to the 4B Movement among radical feminists in the United States. Things like political lesbianism - which, in fairness, often involved feminist lesbians politicizing their basically immutable sexual orientations. Going with a Korean movement is a little sus and has been repeatedly called out by Korean feminists as fetishistic.