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Have Lichtman's 13 keys been debunked?

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Haganham
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Have Lichtman's 13 keys been debunked?

Postby Haganham » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:16 pm

The 13 keys are a predictive model developed by Allan Lichtman and Russian geophysicist Vladimir Keilis-Borok for predicting the results of US presidential elections. Lichtman has been treated as a sort of nostradomus since he has been able to use his model to correctly predicted 9/10 elections. The model assigns 13 "keys" about the economy, political landscape and foreign policy. If 8 keys or more are true, the incumbent party will win; but with six of more false challenging party will win.

Lichtman got a lot of coverage during this election with his prediction, based on this model, that Kamala Harris would with reelection, and, as you may have heard, she lost spectacularly.
Lichtman has been on a cope crusade saying the predicton was good, but the keys assume a rational electorate and blah blah blah. Basically the voter are wrong and dumb and all the ists. Ovbiously that's not great cope, as the point of the keys is to predict who will win, not who should win; and the keys said Kamala would win... didn't they?

Lichtman gave Kamala nine keys: No primary contest, No third party, Strong short-term economy, Strong long-term economy, Major policy change, No social unrest, No scandal, Major foreign or military success, Uncharismatic challenger.

So how did he get it wrong? Are the keys bunk?
Well the key does have some flaws. A lot of them are subjective, and they don't account for a lot of edge cases(is a returning president at the same disadvantage another challenger?). But think the real flaw with Lichtmans prediction is not the keys, but his assignment of them. Lichtman let his personal views of poltics cloud his perception, and as a result he gave Kamala five keys that weren't true.


For reference the keys are.

1 Party mandate After the midterm elections, the incumbent party holds more seats in the U.S. House of Representatives than after the previous midterm elections.
2 No primary contest There is no serious contest for the incumbent party nomination.
3 Incumbent seeking re-election The incumbent party candidate is the sitting president.
4 No third party There is no significant third party or independent campaign.
5 Strong short-term economy The economy is not in recession during the election campaign.
6 Strong long-term economy Real per capita economic growth during the term equals or exceeds mean growth during the previous two terms.
7 Major policy change The incumbent administration effects major changes in national policy.
8 No social unrest There is no sustained social unrest during the term.
9 No scandal The incumbent administration is untainted by major scandal.
10 No foreign or military failure The incumbent administration suffers no major failure in foreign or military affairs.
11 Major foreign or military success The incumbent administration achieves a major success in foreign or military affairs.
12 Charismatic incumbent The incumbent party candidate is charismatic or a national hero.
13 Uncharismatic challenger The challenging party candidate is not charismatic or a national hero.
Imagine reading a signature, but over the course of it the quality seems to deteriorate and it gets wose an wose, where the swenetence stwucture and gwammer rewerts to a pwoint of uttew non swence, an u jus dont wanna wead it anymwore (o´ω`o) awd twa wol owdewl iws jus awfwul (´・ω・`);. bwt tw sinawtur iwswnwt obwer nyet, it gwos own an own an own an own. uwu wanyaa stwop weadwing bwut uwu cwant stop wewding, uwu stwartd thwis awnd ur gwoing two fwinibsh it nowo mwattew wat! uwu hab mwoxie kwiddowo, bwut uwu wibl gwib ub sowon. i cwan wite wike dis fwor owors, swo dwont cwalengbe mii..

… wbats dis??? uwu awe stwill weedinb mwie sinatwr?? uwu habe awot ob detewemwinyanyatiom!! 。◕‿◕。! u habve comopweedid tha signwtr, good job!

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Federation of Great Lake States
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Postby Federation of Great Lake States » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:18 pm

In my personal opinion, anyone that says they can accurately predict the outcome of anything is just bullshitting.
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Areebistan
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Postby Areebistan » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:26 pm

Haganham wrote:The 13 keys are a predictive model developed by Allan Lichtman and Russian geophysicist Vladimir Keilis-Borok for predicting the results of US presidential elections. Lichtman has been treated as a sort of nostradomus since he has been able to use his model to correctly predicted 9/10 elections. The model assigns 13 "keys" about the economy, political landscape and foreign policy. If 8 keys or more are true, the incumbent party will win; but with six of more false challenging party will win.

Lichtman got a lot of coverage during this election with his prediction, based on this model, that Kamala Harris would with reelection, and, as you may have heard, she lost spectacularly.
Lichtman has been on a cope crusade saying the predicton was good, but the keys assume a rational electorate and blah blah blah. Basically the voter are wrong and dumb and all the ists. Ovbiously that's not great cope, as the point of the keys is to predict who will win, not who should win; and the keys said Kamala would win... didn't they?

Lichtman gave Kamala nine keys: No primary contest, No third party, Strong short-term economy, Strong long-term economy, Major policy change, No social unrest, No scandal, Major foreign or military success, Uncharismatic challenger.

So how did he get it wrong? Are the keys bunk?
Well the key does have some flaws. A lot of them are subjective, and they don't account for a lot of edge cases(is a returning president at the same disadvantage another challenger?). But think the real flaw with Lichtmans prediction is not the keys, but his assignment of them. Lichtman let his personal views of poltics cloud his perception, and as a result he gave Kamala five keys that weren't true.


For reference the keys are.

1 Party mandate After the midterm elections, the incumbent party holds more seats in the U.S. House of Representatives than after the previous midterm elections.
2 No primary contest There is no serious contest for the incumbent party nomination.
3 Incumbent seeking re-election The incumbent party candidate is the sitting president.
4 No third party There is no significant third party or independent campaign.
5 Strong short-term economy The economy is not in recession during the election campaign.
6 Strong long-term economy Real per capita economic growth during the term equals or exceeds mean growth during the previous two terms.
7 Major policy change The incumbent administration effects major changes in national policy.
8 No social unrest There is no sustained social unrest during the term.
9 No scandal The incumbent administration is untainted by major scandal.
10 No foreign or military failure The incumbent administration suffers no major failure in foreign or military affairs.
11 Major foreign or military success The incumbent administration achieves a major success in foreign or military affairs.
12 Charismatic incumbent The incumbent party candidate is charismatic or a national hero.
13 Uncharismatic challenger The challenging party candidate is not charismatic or a national hero.


You are right in saying that he gave kamala some keys which are just straight up not true. You may have your grievances about trump, but he is undoubtedly extremely charismatic. Again, what you said about the problem not being the keys and his assignment being the real problem is pertinent as having a majority of those keys would make it likely that you win the election. One thing, some keys are more valuable and important than others and have more bearing on the election.

His points are true on face value but flawed. The two points about short-term and long-term economy are true, but the economy was a major talking point in the election in favour of Trump and against the Biden-Harris administration. The indications showed that the economy is strong, but for voters the economy was not great. Lichtman thinks that the voter base is 'not rational' as they didnt understand that the strength of the economy, but in the voters defense they were not feeling the strength and arbitrary figures didnt reflect the reality in their eyes. Probably more down to a fundamental difference between how intellectuals and the common person views the world.
Last edited by Areebistan on Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Haganham
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Postby Haganham » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:38 pm

That is true. Lichtman is using indicators like a technical recession,and real per person GDP growth. While voters are looking at real wage growth, the cost of living, and the job index(not actually looking, but they feel its effect).
Imagine reading a signature, but over the course of it the quality seems to deteriorate and it gets wose an wose, where the swenetence stwucture and gwammer rewerts to a pwoint of uttew non swence, an u jus dont wanna wead it anymwore (o´ω`o) awd twa wol owdewl iws jus awfwul (´・ω・`);. bwt tw sinawtur iwswnwt obwer nyet, it gwos own an own an own an own. uwu wanyaa stwop weadwing bwut uwu cwant stop wewding, uwu stwartd thwis awnd ur gwoing two fwinibsh it nowo mwattew wat! uwu hab mwoxie kwiddowo, bwut uwu wibl gwib ub sowon. i cwan wite wike dis fwor owors, swo dwont cwalengbe mii..

… wbats dis??? uwu awe stwill weedinb mwie sinatwr?? uwu habe awot ob detewemwinyanyatiom!! 。◕‿◕。! u habve comopweedid tha signwtr, good job!

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Southglory
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Postby Southglory » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:39 pm

Federation of Great Lake States wrote:In my personal opinion, anyone that says they can accurately predict the outcome of anything is just bullshitting.


I can predict the outcome of putting my bare hand in fire, the result of pain.
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Teshasau
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Postby Teshasau » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:41 pm

I don't think they were debunked. I think he just misapplied them. 9 out of 11 is still a very good prediction record.

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Parouty
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Postby Parouty » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:41 pm

Southglory wrote:
Federation of Great Lake States wrote:In my personal opinion, anyone that says they can accurately predict the outcome of anything is just bullshitting.


I can predict the outcome of putting my bare hand in fire, the result of pain.

I can predict what comes after, saying "Ow!"
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Southglory
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Postby Southglory » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:43 pm

Parouty wrote:
Southglory wrote:
I can predict the outcome of putting my bare hand in fire, the result of pain.

I can predict what comes after, saying "Ow!"


9/11 times?
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Christianastan
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Postby Christianastan » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:44 pm

Teshasau wrote:I don't think they were debunked. I think he just misapplied them. 9 out of 11 is still a very good prediction record.

Agreed
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:46 pm

Unfortunately we must concede that Nate Silver did, in fact, know how to turn the keys.
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Haganham
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Postby Haganham » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:54 pm

Teshasau wrote:I don't think they were debunked. I think he just misapplied them. 9 out of 11 is still a very good prediction record.

I don't think so. Statistically the odds of being that accurate are only 1/30. There are counties that have voted "correctly' in every election
Imagine reading a signature, but over the course of it the quality seems to deteriorate and it gets wose an wose, where the swenetence stwucture and gwammer rewerts to a pwoint of uttew non swence, an u jus dont wanna wead it anymwore (o´ω`o) awd twa wol owdewl iws jus awfwul (´・ω・`);. bwt tw sinawtur iwswnwt obwer nyet, it gwos own an own an own an own. uwu wanyaa stwop weadwing bwut uwu cwant stop wewding, uwu stwartd thwis awnd ur gwoing two fwinibsh it nowo mwattew wat! uwu hab mwoxie kwiddowo, bwut uwu wibl gwib ub sowon. i cwan wite wike dis fwor owors, swo dwont cwalengbe mii..

… wbats dis??? uwu awe stwill weedinb mwie sinatwr?? uwu habe awot ob detewemwinyanyatiom!! 。◕‿◕。! u habve comopweedid tha signwtr, good job!

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Areebistan
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Postby Areebistan » Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:12 pm

If lichtmann had applied his keys accurately, he could have had another victory in predicting a win for Trump.
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My Holy Cushion
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Postby My Holy Cushion » Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:14 pm

The problem is they dont take fraud into account or other issues like billionaires buying votes and misinformation.
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Kerwa
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Postby Kerwa » Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:26 pm

The keys Lichtman! What do they mean?

They were never not bunk to begin with. He found a pattern of various factors that lead to re-election but it doesn’t account for all sorts of other things, so they work until they don’t. It’s not some magic formula.

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Areebistan
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Postby Areebistan » Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:30 pm

My Holy Cushion wrote:The problem is they dont take fraud into account or other issues like billionaires buying votes and misinformation.


Thats what he addressed afterwards when he is talking about assuming a rational electorate. a rational electorate does not accept billionaires buying votes and misinformation.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:30 pm

The keys themselves aren't terrible, but the problem this year is that Licthman was outrageously biased in his interpretation of them. He claimed Biden/Harris were doing good on the economy (voters disagreed), he claimed there were no scandals (Bidens age? lol), he claimed there were no foreign or military failures (Afghanistan, Israel, etc) and he claimed Trump was an uncharismatic challenger (plainly nonsense, even if you don't like him he's very charismatic). If you looked at the keys objectively they pointed to a Trump win this year, but Licthman twisted it the other way because he wanted Harris to win.
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Postby Missouri and its territories » Mon Nov 11, 2024 2:45 pm

Yeah the keys, in and of themselves, are fairly good, he just massively was biased in favor of Kamala when, at the very minimum, voters disagreed. Regardless of who was right, economy bad or good, etc, if the voters think its bad, then it should not be listed as a good economy.
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Postby Katganistan » Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:17 pm

Federation of Great Lake States wrote:In my personal opinion, anyone that says they can accurately predict the outcome of anything is just bullshitting.

Not to mention Russian and Chinese interference in both 2020 and now.

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My Holy Cushion
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Postby My Holy Cushion » Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:19 pm

Areebistan wrote:
My Holy Cushion wrote:The problem is they dont take fraud into account or other issues like billionaires buying votes and misinformation.


Thats what he addressed afterwards when he is talking about assuming a rational electorate. a rational electorate does not accept billionaires buying votes and misinformation.



When has the american electorate ever been rational? Seems its mostly reactionary.
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Postby Untecna » Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:21 pm

Misapplication is certainly a concern. One time out of all other elections it's been applied to makes it really hard to say "it's bunk", though.
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Postby Siluvia » Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:28 pm

No, they’re not debunked. They certainly aren’t perfectly accurate either, but neither are traditional polling methods.

I think the biggest issue is that Lichtman consistently underestimates Trump’s level of charisma, but I also think that Key 2 (no primary contest) should have been considered false this election — even though neither Biden nor Harris faced a competitive primary, I would argue that Biden faced and lost the “contest” between himself and other top Dems, which resulted in his withdrawal and replacement.
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Postby Floofybit » Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:31 pm

Didn't give her the right key. It's blue, it's blue.
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Postby Almighty Biden » Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:44 pm

I think the problem is he didn't have enough keys. He should have 88 of them, not 13.
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Kerwa
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Postby Kerwa » Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:14 pm

Untecna wrote:Misapplication is certainly a concern. One time out of all other elections it's been applied to makes it really hard to say "it's bunk", though.


It’s easy to say it’s bunk because it’s an ad hoc rule. It will work unless it doesn’t, like the left handed incumbent rule which had over 200 years of success.

Even if every key was completely and unambiguously filled it could still fail.

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Postby Polyester Football » Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:15 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:The keys themselves aren't terrible, but the problem this year is that Licthman was outrageously biased in his interpretation of them. He claimed Biden/Harris were doing good on the economy (voters disagreed), he claimed there were no scandals (Bidens age? lol), he claimed there were no foreign or military failures (Afghanistan, Israel, etc) and he claimed Trump was an uncharismatic challenger (plainly nonsense, even if you don't like him he's very charismatic). If you looked at the keys objectively they pointed to a Trump win this year, but Licthman twisted it the other way because he wanted Harris to win.


I'd say Lichtman was either biased or just missed the point for some of his "keys".

But also, I think the whole "incumbency" question was very messy in this election for a couple of reasons. Harris wasn't the incumbent in the way Lichtman's model normally means it, so she didn't get the benefit of being the holder of the office. On the other hand, she was regarded by many voters as part-architect of a poor economic performance, and she got the disadvantages of being seen that way. But there's also another thing. Since 2008, there's been a general tendency across the Western world to throw governments out of office after a single term, and it got really pronounced after the Covid pandemic. Pretty much every government in a democracy that was in charge in 2020-2021 and went into an election afterwards lost office. Maybe all of those defeats were linked to inflation and the cost of living, and the result in the USA is just another example of the same phenomenon?
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