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Topic Update: Can you be your own victim and perpetrator?

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Benuty
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Topic Update: Can you be your own victim and perpetrator?

Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 9:51 am

In 2015 I happened across one of the dumbest things I saw and just had to post it on NSG, and the discussion it caused was interesting. A majority of users from the Pre-COVID days have perished so I give a new chance to the newer generations to be dumbfounded by something like this. I figured it was appropriate to have its thread since discussing it in the American Politics thread was putting it in danger of being off-topic.

Information from 2015 Article:
NC Law: Teens who take nude selfie photos face adult sex charges

Posted: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 12:15 am | Updated: 11:41 pm, Wed Sep 2, 2015.

By Paul Woolverton Staff writer


After a 16-year-old Fayetteville girl made a sexually explicit nude photo of herself for her boyfriend last fall, the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office concluded that she committed two felony sex crimes against herself and arrested her in February.

The girl was listed on a warrant as both the adult perpetrator and the minor victim of two counts of sexual exploitation of minor - second-degree exploitation for making her photo and third-degree exploitation for having her photo in her possession.

A conviction could have put the girl in prison and would have required her to register as a sex offender for the rest of her life. A plea bargain arranged for her in July should clear her record next summer.

With the growing popularity of sexting among teens, two researchers said the courts would fill with defendants like this girl if the Sheriff's Office were to arrest all the teens who make nude photos to share with their love interests.

Were such a standard to apply nationwide, "you're talking about millions of kids being charged with child pornography," said psychologist Jeff Temple of the University of Texas Medical Branch.

Temple said his research has found that 28 percent of teens use their cellphones to send naked photos of themselves to other teens. So does a 2014 study published by researchers at Drexel University in Pennsylvania.

The Fayetteville girl, Brianna Denson, was sexting with her boyfriend, Cormega Zyon Copening, the Sheriff's Office said. The agency hit Copening with five sexual exploitation of a minor charges - four for making and possessing two sexually explicit pictures of himself and the last for possessing a copy of the picture that Denson made for him.

Copening, who was 16 at the time and is now 17, also faces possible prison time and the requirement to register as a sex offender if convicted. The charges have already forced him off the football team at Jack Britt High School. He had been the quarterback.

"That's crazy. That seems like overkill," psychologist Michelle Drouin of Indiana University-Purdue University Fort Wayne said when she learned the potential criminal consequences for Denson and Copening. Drouin also has studied sexting among young people.

"It's becoming a way that people are initiating sexual contact with one another," Drouin said. She described it as their equivalent of "second base" in the old baseball metaphor for sexual activity.

"One thing I definitely would say is that sexting has become so intertwined with budding sexuality that I think these are exactly the people who are going to be sending these pictures," she said.

Although the pictures are illegal, sexual intercourse between 16-year-old teens is not. The age of consent for sexual activity in North Carolina is 16, and it dips younger than that for teens who are less than four years apart in age.

In interviews on Tuesday, Sheriff's Office lawyer Ronnie Mitchell and Cumberland County District Attorney Billy West wouldn't say whether they think it's good public policy to use this law to arrest and prosecute consensually sexting teens. They say it's their agencies' job to enforce the law as written.

The Sheriff's Office investigates sexting incidents several times a month, Mitchell estimated. "More frequently than we would like," he said.

The investigations usually are into instances in which photos are shared among a group instead of just within a couple, he said. To his knowledge, Denson's and Copening's pictures weren't shared with anyone else. He said they were discovered during an investigation of other explicit photos that were being shared among teens without the consent of the person or persons pictured.

West would not comment on the specifics of the Denson and Copening cases. However, he said, in cases where the defendants and victims were willing participants and close in age, his office typically lets them plead guilty to a misdemeanor with a deferred prosecution.

This is how Denson is settling her case.

In court on July 21, Denson told District Court Judge Stephen Stokes that she was responsible for the crime of disseminating harmful material to minors. This is a misdemeanor and does not have the life-ruining requirement that she register as a sex offender.

One of West's assistants dropped the felony sexual exploitation charges.

Stokes put Denson on probation for a year. He ordered her to pay $200 in court costs, stay in school, take a class on how to make good decisions, refrain from using illegal drugs or alcohol, not possess a cellular phone for the duration of her probation and to do 30 hours of community service.

If Denson stays out of trouble, West's office next July will drop the misdemeanor charge. She will be able to move on with her life with a clean criminal record.

She shouldn't have been charged in the first place, researchers Temple and Drouin said.

"It seems to me that you might be among the strictest of the laws that I've heard of" in the country, Droiun said.

Copening's case is still pending.

The Drexel University study in 2014 said 20 states and the U.S. territory of Guam have eased their laws in recent years to account for the sexting activities of teens.

Young people have been sharing naked pictures of themselves for centuries, Temple said. Before the invention of the camera, he said, they drew or painted pictures of themselves in their love letters.

The difference now is that the images spread so quickly and easily with modern technology, Temple said.

Instead of punishing young people, Temple said, "our resources should be more on education and not on punishment with this type of sexting. ... More education with respect to actual sexual behavior, and more importantly - I can't say this enough - is more information on healthy relationships and what healthy relationships look like with adolescents."

Staff writer Paul Woolverton can be reached at woolvertonp@fayobserver.com, in Raleigh at 919-828-7641 or in Fayetteville at 910-486-3512.


Source: https://www.fayobserver.com/story/news/ ... 227301007/

-Edit: I had to update the link as it was expired due to this being nearly a decade ago.

Original Opinion:
So what is it are they an adult or a minor? Because they cannot obviously be both. So aside from the sheer fact they cannot make up their mind this just seems to set even more questions in line. Like how can somehow be both the perpetrator, and the victim of a supposed "crime"? Or why are you charging them with a felony that could potentially ruin their lives? What say you oh unleavened masses of NSG?


New Opinion circa 11/10/2024:
I still maintain the harsh inconsistency and dissonance making one both a victim and perpetrator of the crime that made them a victim is foolish. The legal system is often behind and views things in a black and white mentality when a grey view of morality is needed here. I will try to find an update on whether they were marked as felons and their now adult lives have been ruined since this decision, but I did find some interesting updates to this case in terms of legal discussion around it. What say you oh unleavened and leavened masses NSG?
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Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 9:52 am

Post reserved for extra legal commentary I will put on here.

Link: https://www.ncbarblog.com/teen-sexting- ... n-n-c-law/

Most parents today are warning their teenagers about the dangers of sharing sexually explicit images of themselves with others by cell phone or computer, also known as sexting. The behavior is not only inappropriate, but it also exposes teens to potential embarrassment, humiliation, and further victimization if the photos are disclosed to third parties without their consent. However, the potential harm caused by sexting goes far beyond the social stigma.

A growing number of teens in NC and across the nation are facing criminal charges for sexting. LaToya Powell, Teen “Sexting” is a Problem, But Is it a Crime?, NC Crim. Law Blog (Sept. 8, 2015, 8:29 AM), http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/teen-s ... t-a-crime/. Because the state does not have a sexting specific law, the conduct is typically prosecuted under laws prohibiting child pornography and obscenity. Id. These offenses carry severe penalties, including a permanent criminal record, sex offender registration, and imprisonment for up to 20 years for juveniles who are charged as adults.[1] Advocates argue that such harsh consequences are grossly disproportionate to the harm caused by consensual teen sexting and many states have created new laws to address the problem.

Sexting Is Considered Child Pornography in N.C.

In September 2015, two teenagers in Fayetteville, North Carolina were each charged with felony child pornography for sending naked selfies to each other when they were both age 16. If convicted of sexual exploitation of a minor (i.e. child pornography), the teens, who were in a dating relationship, would have faced mandatory sex offender registration. However, they both pled guilty to a reduced charge of disseminating harmful material to minors, a misdemeanor which was dismissed after they successfully completed a term of probation under a deferred prosecution agreement. Paul Woolverton, Sexting Charges Dismissed for Fayetteville Teenager, Fayobserver.com (July. 7, 2016), http://www.fayobserver.com/news/crime_c ... e3d47.html.

The case generated widespread criticism of North Carolina’s treatment of minors who engage in sexting, particularly 16 and 17 year olds who are automatically prosecuted as adults. See, e.g., Cristina Corbin, NC High School Gridder Faces Felony Charges Over “Terrible” Sexting Law, Fox News (Sept. 4, 2015), http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/04/nc ... g-law.html. Because the child pornography statutes define a “minor” as a person under 18, 16- and 17-year-olds can simultaneously be considered victim and perpetrator. That is, they can be criminally charged for creating, possessing, or distributing child pornography when they take nude photos of themselves and share them with others. G.S. 14-190.13; G.S. 14-190.17; G.S. 14-190.17A. Juveniles under 16 who sext can also be charged with child pornography, but they are prosecuted in juvenile court where the allegations are not made public and if adjudicated delinquent, they do not have to register as sex offenders.

Even when criminal charges are later reduced or dismissed, the collateral consequences of an adult sexting charge can be devastating. In the Fayetteville case, the high school senior who was criminally charged for sexting his girlfriend was suspended from his football team where he had played quarterback. He was teased by other students at school who called him a “felon” and was denied college football scholarships due to his probation, although he ultimately received a partial scholarship. His parents also suffered due to the significant legal expenses they incurred and they will have to spend more money hiring an attorney to get his record expunged. Supra, Woolverton.

Perhaps even more troubling is that if the teens had actually engaged in sex, rather than sexting, they would not have been charged. In North Carolina, at age 16, teens can legally consent to engage in sexual intercourse but if they exchange sexually explicit photos, they commit a felony. Most teens likely don’t realize this disparity.

Sexting Is a Common Practice Among U.S. Teens

Although research varies, a 2012 study of nearly 1,000 high school students in Texas found that about 30 percent of them admitted sharing a nude photo by text or email, and 31 percent had requested one from someone else. Patricia Reaney, Sexting Common Behavior Among U.S. Teens – Study, Reuters (July 2, 2012, 4:23 PM), http://www.reuters.com/article/sexting- ... PF20120702. A different study by researchers at Drexel University found that 28 percent of college students reported sexting as minors. Alex McKechnie, Majority of Minors Engage in Sexting, Unaware of Harsh Legal Consequences, Drexel.edu (June 18, 2014), http://drexel.edu/now/archive/2014/June/Sexting-Study/. The majority of those students (61 percent) did not know sexting could be considered child pornography. Id.

Increasing media attention of this issue also illustrates that sexting may be fairly common among adolescents.

In April 2014, authorities in Louisa County, Virginia discovered that more than 100 teens between the ages of 14 and 17 were using the social media website Instagram to share hundreds of nude images and videos of underage girls. Although no charges were ultimately filed, the conduct possibly constitutes felony distribution of child pornography under Virginia law which requires lifetime sex offender registration. Keith Wagstaff, Teen ‘Sexting’ Ring Discovered on Instagram, NBC News (April 10, 2014, 1:16 PM), http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-medi ... ram-n76861.

In October 2014, more than 30 students in Oakland County, Michigan were implicated in a sexting ring that involved young girls, all under the age of 16, sending nude cell phone pictures of themselves to boys, who then shared the images with their friends. Lori Higgins, Teens Might Face Felony Charges for Sexting, USA Today (October 16, 2014, 3:55 PM), http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /17356905/. The teens could have faced felony child pornography charges but were ultimately referred to juvenile court due to their ages. Paul Kampe, Five Teens Referred to Juvenile Court in Rochester Hills “Sexting” Investigation,” The Oakland Press (March 11, 2015, 9:45 AM), http://www.theoaklandpress.com/article/ ... /150319920.

In November 2015, school officials at a high school in Canon City, Colo., discovered that students exchanged hundreds of nude or semi-nude photos of themselves using a photo vault app that hides the images by disguising itself as a calculator or media player. The students could have been charged with violating felony child pornography laws that require sex offender registration. However, the district attorney decided not to file any charges after determining the offenses did not involve “aggravating factors” such as the involvement of adults. Greg Botelho and Michael Martinez, DA: No Charges Against Colorado Students in Sexting Scandal, CNN (December 9, 2015, 4:37 PM), http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/09/us/colora ... anon-city/.

These cases may confirm what one researcher determined about why kids sext. Hanna Rosin, Why Kids Sext, The Atlantic, Nov. 2014, http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... xt/380798/. In the age of Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat, sexting is a modern day form of flirting or adolescent sexual exploration that teens don’t think is harmful. Id.

Some States Already Have Separate Teen Sexting Laws

The emergence of teen sexting has caused many states to consider whether laws primarily intended to protect children from adult sexual predators should be used to prosecute the minors themselves. The National Conference of State Legislatures reported that since 2009, at least 20 states have passed legislation that treats underage sexting differently from child pornography.

States that have passed sexting legislation recognize that even the consensual sharing of sexually explicit images of minors is harmful but generally treat the offense as a misdemeanor with relatively light punishments, such as fines, counseling, community service, and out of court diversion programs. Sameer Hinduja and Justin W. Patchin, State Sexting Laws: A Brief Review of State Sexting and Revenge Porn Laws and Policies, Cyberbullying Research Center, http://cyberbullying.org/state-sexting-laws.pdf (last visited Feb. 17, 2016). Most sexting laws also apply only when all the parties involved are minors under 18 and they include graduated sanctions. For example:

In 2010, Arizona passed a juvenile sexting law that applies to minors under 18 who send or receive a sexually explicit image of a minor. Distributing the image to only one other person is a petty offense, punishable by a fine. Distributing the image to more than one person elevates the offense to a Class 3 misdemeanor, punishable by a $500 fine and/or up to 30 days in jail. However, repeat offenders may be charged with a Class 2 misdemeanor, punishable by a $750 fine and up to 4 months in jail. Rev. Stat. § 8-309.

In 2013, Arkansas enacted a juvenile sexting law that makes the possession of sexually explicit digital material by a juvenile under 18 a Class A misdemeanor. For the first offense, a juvenile may receive up to 8 hours of community service, if he or she pleads no contest or guilty. Code Ann. §§ 5-25-101, 5-27-609.

In 2014, Oklahoma created a misdemeanor offense for minors under the age of 18 who engage in the sexting of images or videos of minors between the ages of 14 and 17. If the minor depicted in the image consented and the image was distributed to five or fewer persons, the juvenile may receive a fine of up to $500 for the first offense or up to $1,000 for a second or subsequent offense. Additional penalties include up to 40 hours of community service and juvenile diversion. Stat. tit. 10A § 2-8-221. Sexting that occurs without the consent of the depicted minor, involves images of minors under 14, or is distributed to more than five persons is also a misdemeanor but carries tougher penalties. Id.

In at least four states with sexting specific laws, the offense can also be a felony. Florida and Utah make underage sexting a felony for repeat offenders. Fla. Stat. Ann. § 847.0141; Utah Code Ann. § 76-10-1206. Georgia law classifies sexting as a felony depending on the facts of the case. Ga. Code Ann. § 16-12-100. The fourth state, Nebraska, treats all sexting as a felony. Neb. Rev. Stat. §§ 28-1463.03, 28-1463.04, 28-1463.05, 28-813.01. Many sexting laws also provide an affirmative defense for minors who receive unsolicited sexts and take steps to either delete the images or report them to an authority figure.

Closing the Gap In N.C. Law

It is unclear whether North Carolina will soon join the growing list of states with a sexting law. However, last year, the legislature quietly enacted a “revenge porn” statute to address the nonconsensual disclosure of sexually explicit images of another person for the purpose of harassment, intimidation, or humiliation. G.S. 14-190.5A.

Unlike the child pornography offenses, the revenge porn statute creates separate penalties for adults and minors. The crime is a Class H felony if the defendant is 18 or older. For minors who are under 18, a first offense is a Class 1 misdemeanor and a second or subsequent offense is a Class H felony. G.S. 14-190.5A(c). This penalty structure suggests that lawmakers recognize that children are generally less culpable than adults due to childhood immaturity and impulsivity. Therefore, the revenge porn statute gives juveniles a break on the first offense by treating it as a misdemeanor. On the other hand, NC law ironically now treats revenge porn by juveniles as a less serious offense than consensual sexting.

At least one NC lawmaker has publicly expressed that the state needs a law to specifically address teen sexting. Sen. Jeff Tarte, a Republican from Huntersville, told a reporter he was not aware that sexting was not covered under current N.C. law and that he would push for the legislature to consider creating new legislation to close this gap. Jim Bradley, 9 Investigates: Growing Trend of Sexting Among Teenagers, http://www.wsoctv.com (May 6, 2015, 5:56 PM), http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/special ... age/nk9hK/. However, following the Fayetteville sexting case, Republican Rep. Paul “Skip” Stam of Apex told a reporter he was not yet convinced that North Carolina needs a sexting law. Paul Woolverton, Lawmaker: Child Porn Law Misused Against Sexting Teens, But Tools Needed To Fight Predators, Fayobserver.com (Sept. 12, 2015), http://www.fayobserver.com/news/local/l ... efdd1.html. Stam expressed concern that such a law might create a loophole for adult pedophiles and send the wrong message to teens that sexting is OK.

Despite these concerns, most lawmakers would probably concede that consensual teen sexting is different than child pornography. How they address this issue will likely be the source of serious debate. Reviewing how other states have responded might be a good place to start.

LaToya B. Powell is assistant professor of public law and government at the UNC School of Government.

[1] The maximum aggravated range sentence for first-degree sexual exploitation of a minor, a Class C felony, is 231 months, although such a sentence would be unlikely for a teenager. See G.S. 15A-1340.17(c) & (e).
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Postby Floofybit » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:20 am

Being charged as a sex offender is overkill. However, if she willingly sent those pictures, she is distributing illegal product, and should therefore be punished. Similarly, the boy, if he had the ability to delete the pictures, kept the pictures willingly, he should also be punished for having illegal material.
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Postby Fahran » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:23 am

I want to post a quick reminder to folks participating in this thread that a moratorium on discussing age of consent, especially lowering the age of consent, remains in effect and advise that we behave accordingly in the conversations we have about this issue. I'm not locking the thread because I do believe it's possible to have a rule-abiding conversation about the legal principles and conundrums presented by the OP without violating our malicious content policy. Let's be mindful.
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Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:26 am

Floofybit wrote:Being charged as a sex offender is overkill. However, if she willingly sent those pictures, she is distributing illegal product, and should therefore be punished. Similarly, the boy, if he had the ability to delete the pictures, kept the pictures willingly, he should also be punished for having illegal material.

The core crux of this case back in the day is that these were legally speaking children who were charged as a adults in a case that could have very well ruined their lives. Mind you the author of the law was horrified to find out it was being used this way, and the law was crafted in 1990 before our modern technology (well what was modern in 2015) really was considered as a legal avenue here.
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:33 am

I believe "the law is an ass" about sums it up.
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Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:39 am

The Two Jerseys wrote:I believe "the law is an ass" about sums it up.

Pretty much, or in this case the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" fits here as well.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:40 am

Benuty wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:I believe "the law is an ass" about sums it up.

Pretty much, or in this case the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" fits here as well.


Meh. Stupid laws happen because stupid people caused their creation.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:41 am

It’s always bugged me when this happens (similar happened to Rittenhouse in a completely different scenario - they charged him as an adult for being a child with a rifle), and I think the core problem is “charging children as adults”.

If we just stopped charging children as adults, this would stop. But I would argue there’s three categories if we were to do it right - children, teens, and adults. It probably does require a different treatment when someone is 17 1/2 than 7 1/2, but that treatment probably should probably not be the same as 47 1/2.
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Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:43 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Benuty wrote:Pretty much, or in this case the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" fits here as well.


Meh. Stupid laws happen because stupid people caused their creation.

True, but in this case the representative who authored it did not see the law being used this way.
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Postby Southglory » Sun Nov 10, 2024 3:35 pm

If the law says you can commit a crime against yourself, I believe that law needs to change.
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Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 4:31 pm

Southglory wrote:If the law says you can commit a crime against yourself, I believe that law needs to change.

It most certainly does.
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Postby Durius » Sun Nov 10, 2024 5:12 pm

Isn't that also the case of suicide in those nations that deem it illegal?

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Postby Saiwana » Sun Nov 10, 2024 5:35 pm

The law isn't always right and can't always get it right, but does try to set up boundaries. There are situations where children can and should be tried as adults depending on what they did. I'm sure there is a punishment that can be levied that won't ruin them but will compel them to not do it again and be more mindful of what they're doing.
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Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 5:41 pm

Durius wrote:Isn't that also the case of suicide in those nations that deem it illegal?

Sort of, but at the same time, those who typically attempt suicide are typically realized to be troubled and they were doing it for a reason.
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Postby Glorious Freedonia » Sun Nov 10, 2024 6:27 pm

Yes. Of course.

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Postby Benuty » Sun Nov 10, 2024 6:44 pm

Glorious Freedonia wrote:Yes. Of course.

I need some elaboration on this actually.
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Postby Glorious Freedonia » Sun Nov 10, 2024 7:03 pm

Benuty wrote:
Glorious Freedonia wrote:Yes. Of course.

I need some elaboration on this actually.

I am not sure if we are allowed to say the name of the bad crime of bad photography of children here. If that crime is committed by a kid then yes. Also, any form of illegal self harm that deprives us of some or all of someone's ability to make our world better.

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Postby Bovad » Sun Nov 10, 2024 7:32 pm

The concept of rape begins to fall apart when you can't decide which person raped which.
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AÞeist, pro-choice, queer.
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Haganham
Senator
 
Posts: 3713
Founded: Aug 17, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Haganham » Sun Nov 10, 2024 8:59 pm

The entire premise of statutory sex crimes is that children lack the understanding of the act to meaningfully consent. But by accepting that reasoning it necessarily follows that they lack the capacity to understand the wrongness of the crime(since the crime IS the act).

Bovad wrote:The concept of rape begins to fall apart when you can't decide which person raped which.

Oh that's extremely easy. The boy raped the girl.
Imagine reading a signature, but over the course of it the quality seems to deteriorate and it gets wose an wose, where the swenetence stwucture and gwammer rewerts to a pwoint of uttew non swence, an u jus dont wanna wead it anymwore (o´ω`o) awd twa wol owdewl iws jus awfwul (´・ω・`);. bwt tw sinawtur iwswnwt obwer nyet, it gwos own an own an own an own. uwu wanyaa stwop weadwing bwut uwu cwant stop wewding, uwu stwartd thwis awnd ur gwoing two fwinibsh it nowo mwattew wat! uwu hab mwoxie kwiddowo, bwut uwu wibl gwib ub sowon. i cwan wite wike dis fwor owors, swo dwont cwalengbe mii..

… wbats dis??? uwu awe stwill weedinb mwie sinatwr?? uwu habe awot ob detewemwinyanyatiom!! 。◕‿◕。! u habve comopweedid tha signwtr, good job!

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Glorious Freedonia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6137
Founded: Jun 09, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Glorious Freedonia » Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:16 am

I have caught a lot of flak here on NSG for the pretty simple claim that a person cannot rape themself.

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Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38693
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:44 am

Glorious Freedonia wrote:I have caught a lot of flak here on NSG for the pretty simple claim that a person cannot rape themself.

Flak from who? Or are you talking about the wider NSG?
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity. Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

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Glorious Freedonia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6137
Founded: Jun 09, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Glorious Freedonia » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:05 pm

Benuty wrote:
Glorious Freedonia wrote:I have caught a lot of flak here on NSG for the pretty simple claim that a person cannot rape themself.

Flak from who? Or are you talking about the wider NSG?

The wider NSG.

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Glorious Freedonia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6137
Founded: Jun 09, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Glorious Freedonia » Mon Nov 11, 2024 12:06 pm

Southglory wrote:If the law says you can commit a crime against yourself, I believe that law needs to change.

If you keep going with that argument, you are going to get mobbed by haters here. That happened to me.

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The Phoenix Consortium
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 161
Founded: Jun 23, 2023
Anarchy

Postby The Phoenix Consortium » Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:43 am

The state should not be in business of protecting people from themselves.
The state should not be in business of protecting people.
The state should not be in business of protecting.
The state should not be in business.
THE STATE SHOULD NOT BE.

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