Higher Education

[Glorious Freedonia]

This thread is about higher education. Unless you can come up with a better definition for higher education, let's define higher education as any formal education beyond high school. This excludes what might be considered higher education that a student receives while in high school because that is something that happens (and in my opinion is a very good thing).

So trade education and certification beyond high school counts. So does undergraduate certificates, associates degrees, bachelor degrees, professional and graduate education beyond a bachelor degree.

Topics for discussion include anything relating to higher education, including, but not limited to:
1. Is higher education's sole benefit career and income advancement?
2. How valuable is liberal arts education to make us better people and or better workers?
3. What types of higher education are worth the expense and what types are not?
4. What, if anything, do you plan to do to pursue higher education? Why do you want to do this?
5. What types of higher education have you already received? Are you pleased with your choice to receive that education? Do you have any regrets regarding the higher education choices that you have made so far?

My thoughts are that higher education is a great thing. I think it comes in two varieties. The first variety is education that helps you earn or save money. I think trade education and professional schools help a lot with that and are generally worth the investment of time and money. The second variety is liberal arts education that helps you become a well rounded thinker. I think that this is valuable too but it is often very expensive and I wish that it was not so expensive.

I have a bachelor's degree with a double major, a professional degree, and a graduate certificate. I also am working towards an associate's degree.

[Technoscience Leftwing]

* Whether a higher education holder will be able to make a successful career depends not on the quality of education, but on the economic situation. For example, during the industrialization period in the USSR in the 1930s, there was an acute shortage of engineers for the new factories that were emerging in a country with an illiterate peasant population, and they tried to attract any of them with high salaries, their career was ensured. But in the 1970s, industrialization ended, new enterprises were not created, and engineers began to receive less than workers, there was an overproduction of engineers. In the 1990s, many factories went bankrupt, and even those engineers who were already working for them lost their jobs. The same is in the West - during the period of prosperity, engineers were in demand, and during the Great Depression they were fired due to the ruin of factories. The fate of engineers did not depend on the quality of education, it was determined by market demand.
* But even if education does not help find a high-paying job, it does develop the brain and broaden horizons, allowing you to become well-rounded. In the USSR, higher education was free, and we did not have to worry about where to get money to pay for it. Perhaps in the future, it will become free everywhere in the world, if the goal of society is the development of all those citizens who want to develop.
* At the same time, there are problems, often the methods of teaching and solving engineering problems become obsolete as technology develops. People were taught to draw on Whatman paper and count on a calculator, and after the advent of computer programs, these skills became obsolete. The advent of remote interactive teaching methods allows us to more clearly demonstrate the operation of mechanisms or the course of natural processes, but this requires new skills from professors, devaluing their previous skills.
* In the humanities, teaching is negatively affected by the pressure of the ruling classes, who are trying to dictate ideas that make citizens obedient (law-abidingness, religion, patriotism, something else in this spirit). This inhibits the development of students' critical thinking.

[The Black Forrest]

My question?

Do people trigger on liberal arts because the word liberal is involved?

[Corporate Collective Salvation]

My question?

Do people trigger on liberal arts because the word liberal is involved?

Yep, and the word "art" probably helps deflect them from plumbing the depths of utility many of these degrees offer.

Just as an aside, I have known many people who have sought to define themselves with a degree.
Personally, I think we define them. Both in how we earn and use them.

[Inner Albania]

My question?

Do people trigger on liberal arts because the word liberal is involved?

Exactly, not everyone with a liberal arts degree is destined to work at a McDonald's.

[Saiwana]

1. Is higher education's sole benefit career and income advancement?

That is the primary purpose and point of evening getting a degree, because it is such an expensive investment. They damn well shouldn't go to college to learn just anything they want, unless if they got a free ride scholarship.

2. How valuable is liberal arts education to make us better people and or better workers?

Not very valuable, this is evident from the data that is available on which majors are paid the best and which are paid the worst.
All of the highest paying professions within the US (and other developed countries economies) is dominated by STEM jobs/career paths.
People are damn right that parents shouldn't pay some crackpot university to teach their children Communist/Liberal propaganda. Ideally, what they're learning is supposed to set them up for some financial success.

3. What types of higher education are worth the expense and what types are not?

Whichever pays the best compared to how much you have to pay into a degree. Do your research before committing to a difficult degree program.

4. What, if anything, do you plan to do to pursue higher education? Why do you want to do this?

I've done it, and it almost didn't work out in the end. I recommend figuring out what even is available in terms of industries where you live and figure out if you have to move or not. Then find out what educations/training people have that are actually working your favored job or career field before committing to any specific training or education, and make sure it is accredited or has utility. Law and Medicine for example, has utility nearly everywhere because most locations have demand for Medical or Legal professionals. The primary thing that changes is how much a prospective Doctor or Lawyer can expect to be paid where doing what. Why not aim for what you can charge the most for?

You don't have to love work and most people probably don't. That is why it is work and not fun. What matters is that it is something you can become competent enough at to stick with, and that you're not struggling to pay for whatever you need or want.

5. What types of higher education have you already received? Are you pleased with your choice to receive that education? Do you have any regrets regarding the higher education choices that you have made so far?

I have a 2 year degree in Computer Engineering and have CompTIA Security+ among other IT certifications. I'm working on CISSP in the long run. The 2 year degree is almost a complete waste. I recommend a full 4 year for the Cybersecurity field. If you can't afford it however, Security+ is enough. But what you really want for certifications is from ISC2.

[Diarcesia]

Tertiary education is the real deal. Can we get much higher?

[Inner Albania]

Tertiary education is the real deal. Can we get much higher?

So high

[Corporate Collective Salvation]

Tertiary education is the real deal.

What a lot of guys in prison get.

[Glorious Freedonia]

My question?

Do people trigger on liberal arts because the word liberal is involved?

I am very conservative and I am not in any way against liberal education. Liberal education is or at least ought to be apolitical.

[Glorious Freedonia]

* Whether a higher education holder will be able to make a successful career depends not on the quality of education, but on the economic situation. For example, during the industrialization period in the USSR in the 1930s, there was an acute shortage of engineers for the new factories that were emerging in a country with an illiterate peasant population, and they tried to attract any of them with high salaries, their career was ensured. But in the 1970s, industrialization ended, new enterprises were not created, and engineers began to receive less than workers, there was an overproduction of engineers. In the 1990s, many factories went bankrupt, and even those engineers who were already working for them lost their jobs. The same is in the West - during the period of prosperity, engineers were in demand, and during the Great Depression they were fired due to the ruin of factories. The fate of engineers did not depend on the quality of education, it was determined by market demand.
* But even if education does not help find a high-paying job, it does develop the brain and broaden horizons, allowing you to become well-rounded. In the USSR, higher education was free, and we did not have to worry about where to get money to pay for it. Perhaps in the future, it will become free everywhere in the world, if the goal of society is the development of all those citizens who want to develop.
* At the same time, there are problems, often the methods of teaching and solving engineering problems become obsolete as technology develops. People were taught to draw on Whatman paper and count on a calculator, and after the advent of computer programs, these skills became obsolete. The advent of remote interactive teaching methods allows us to more clearly demonstrate the operation of mechanisms or the course of natural processes, but this requires new skills from professors, devaluing their previous skills.
* In the humanities, teaching is negatively affected by the pressure of the ruling classes, who are trying to dictate ideas that make citizens obedient (law-abidingness, religion, patriotism, something else in this spirit). This inhibits the development of students' critical thinking.

I think that free higher education is a great goal for a society.
I think that this idea that Russian engineers who learned engineering one way are doomed to obsolescence does not make sense. They just have to learn new skills to stay current. The same can be said for many if not all professions.
Assuming that we are talking about liberal democracies I think that humanities are not hurt by people following the law, being patriotic, and having a religion. I think that you can have critical thinking while still being good citizens.

[Glorious Freedonia]

1. Is higher education's sole benefit career and income advancement?

That is the primary purpose and point of evening getting a degree, because it is such an expensive investment. They damn well shouldn't go to college to learn just anything they want, unless if they got a free ride scholarship.

2. How valuable is liberal arts education to make us better people and or better workers?

Not very valuable, this is evident from the data that is available on which majors are paid the best and which are paid the worst.
All of the highest paying professions within the US (and other developed countries economies) is dominated by STEM jobs/career paths.
People are damn right that parents shouldn't pay some crackpot university to teach their children Communist/Liberal propaganda. Ideally, what they're learning is supposed to set them up for some financial success.

3. What types of higher education are worth the expense and what types are not?

Whichever pays the best compared to how much you have to pay into a degree. Do your research before committing to a difficult degree program.

4. What, if anything, do you plan to do to pursue higher education? Why do you want to do this?

I've done it, and it almost didn't work out in the end. I recommend figuring out what even is available in terms of industries where you live and figure out if you have to move or not. Then find out what educations/training people have that are actually working your favored job or career field before committing to any specific training or education, and make sure it is accredited or has utility. Law and Medicine for example, has utility nearly everywhere because most locations have demand for Medical or Legal professionals. The primary thing that changes is how much a prospective Doctor or Lawyer can expect to be paid where doing what. Why not aim for what you can charge the most for?

You don't have to love work and most people probably don't. That is why it is work and not fun. What matters is that it is something you can become competent enough at to stick with, and that you're not struggling to pay for whatever you need or want.

5. What types of higher education have you already received? Are you pleased with your choice to receive that education? Do you have any regrets regarding the higher education choices that you have made so far?

I have a 2 year degree in Computer Engineering and have CompTIA Security+ among other IT certifications. I'm working on CISSP in the long run. The 2 year degree is almost a complete waste. I recommend a full 4 year for the Cybersecurity field. If you can't afford it however, Security+ is enough. But what you really want for certifications is from ISC2.

I agree with you that advancing your income and career are very important if higher education is very expensive. Like you, if it is free then the student can focus on other self improvement. The same can be said for low cost higher ed. I really like community colleges for vocational education and for self improvement. They are very affordable and in my experience, the education is top notch.

[Glorious Freedonia]

My question?

Do people trigger on liberal arts because the word liberal is involved?

Yep, and the word "art" probably helps deflect them from plumbing the depths of utility many of these degrees offer.

Just as an aside, I have known many people who have sought to define themselves with a degree.
Personally, I think we define them. Both in how we earn and use them.

I do not know about the effect of the word "art". I think that to a big extent, your degree does define you. Of all the things you chose to study, you chose x. For all the effort that you put into your education you chose y so far. The higher the education, the more it defines you. If you get a medical degree and become a doctor that defines you much more than someone of the same age who only has an associates degree in general studies.

[Floofybit]

I'm definitely going into higher education. I want to work in the medical field and I am on track for scholarships.

My question?

Do people trigger on liberal arts because the word liberal is involved?

Yes. It's only good if it's bubble wrap nanny state arts.

[Corporate Collective Salvation]

I do not know about the effect of the word "art". I think that to a big extent, your degree does define you. Of all the things you chose to study, you chose x. For all the effort that you put into your education you chose y so far. The higher the education, the more it defines you. If you get a medical degree and become a doctor that defines you much more than someone of the same age who only has an associates degree in general studies.

Well, we cannot all be rocket surgeons.

You know, some "dumb" kids just do two years vocational school, have a journeyman's apprenticeship down into a solid job, and financing their first house while some other kid walks out of a school in debt up to their neck holding a degree they don't know how to use.

The doctors and lawyers are running out of electricians and plumbers.
We need more "dumb" kids.

[Kerwa]

Education has become hopelessly entangled with credentialism, which is a shame because the two things aren’t the same. Additionally the way we divide education into a tripartite systems with so called “terminal” degrees is very much a system suited to older times and isn’t really compatible with the pace of change in the modern era. Ideally there ought to be different, more open structures, that can deliver education more widely and efficiently.

Probably will never happen given entrenched interests.

[Xmara]

So far I have a double bachelor's in biology and criminal justice, and a master's in forensic science. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a job in forensics here in WV and am currently not in the position to move out of state, so I decided that this spring I am going back to school to get my master's in biotechnology.

I hope that when I graduate I can get a job straight out of school there at the university so I can be close to my parents. My dad is a disabled veteran, and with my sister moving to the other side of the country and my brother deceased, I don't want to leave mom alone to take care of him. And even if something were to happen to dad, I don't want to leave mom here by herself.

My question?

Do people trigger on liberal arts because the word liberal is involved?

Well duh, it's obviously the study of art made by liberals /j

[Xmara]

Yep, and the word "art" probably helps deflect them from plumbing the depths of utility many of these degrees offer.

Just as an aside, I have known many people who have sought to define themselves with a degree.
Personally, I think we define them. Both in how we earn and use them.

I do not know about the effect of the word "art". I think that to a big extent, your degree does define you. Of all the things you chose to study, you chose x. For all the effort that you put into your education you chose y so far. The higher the education, the more it defines you. If you get a medical degree and become a doctor that defines you much more than someone of the same age who only has an associates degree in general studies.

Don't crap on the people who "only" have an associate's. Most of the people in my family only have either a high school diploma or a bachelor's degree, and I'd say they've done pretty good.

[Saiwana]

So far I have a double bachelor's in biology and criminal justice, and a master's in forensic science. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a job in forensics here in WV and am currently not in the position to move out of state, so I decided that this spring I am going back to school to get my master's in biotechnology.

This is a lot of wasted potential. Your time to make money is now and not later, especially if in 20s or 30s. Take out a small loan and hire a career coach or an HR professional to write your resume and make your job connections if you have to. More school is probably not what you need to start using those degrees. It may well just be a location problem where you need to move to where those jobs you do want actually exist. Getting a bit of money gathered up to relocate will be cheaper than pursuing another fancy degree that will take just as long. You could be spending too much time on school until it is too late and you're passed up for being overqualified.

[Xmara]

So far I have a double bachelor's in biology and criminal justice, and a master's in forensic science. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get a job in forensics here in WV and am currently not in the position to move out of state, so I decided that this spring I am going back to school to get my master's in biotechnology.

This is a lot of wasted potential. Your time to make money is now and not later. Take out a small loan and hire a career coach or an HR professional to write your resume and make your job connections if you have to. More school is probably not what you need to start using those degrees. It may well just be a location problem where you need to move. Getting a bit of money gathered up to relocate will be cheaper than pursuing another fancy degree that will take just as long. You could be spending too much time on school until it is too late and you're passed up for being overqualified.

Did you miss the part where I can't move rn because I have to help my mom care for my disabled dad? I'm going to school near home so I can help when I'm not studying or working. The program is also going to give me a monthly stipend to help with expenses.

[Saiwana]

Did you miss the part where I can't move rn because I have to help my mom care for my disabled dad? I'm going to school near home so I can help when I'm not studying or working. The program is also going to give me a monthly stipend to help with expenses.

Your parents will be fine or figure something out. The most logical outcome is that yes- he might be put in a nursing home, harsh as it may be. You need to leave the nest while you can, unless if there is a compelling enough plan in motion, such as living rent/mortgage free and using the money you save to invest in assets that will cash flow and make it even easier to have "made it" permanently.

If you have awesome degrees under your belt, you've got to find a way to use them before it becomes a sad case of: "it was all for nothing."

[Xmara]

Did you miss the part where I can't move rn because I have to help my mom care for my disabled dad? I'm going to school near home so I can help when I'm not studying or working. The program is also going to give me a monthly stipend to help with expenses.

Your parents will be fine or figure something out. The most logical outcome is that yes- he might be put in a nursing home, harsh as it may be. You need to leave the nest while you can, unless if there is a compelling enough plan in motion, such as living rent/mortgage free and using the money you save to invest in assets that will cash flow and make it even easier to have "made it" permanently.

If you have awesome degrees under your belt, you've got to find a way to use them before it becomes a sad case of: "it was all for nothing."

Yeah, no. I'm not taking a random stranger's unsolicited advice on this one.

[The Black Forrest]

Well? These people did ok with liberal arts degrees.

https://time.com/3964415/ceo-degree-liberal-arts/

There are many well known computer scientists as well…..

[Technoscience Leftwing]

I think that free higher education is a great goal for a society.
I think that this idea that Russian engineers who learned engineering one way are doomed to obsolescence does not make sense. They just have to learn new skills to stay current. The same can be said for many if not all professions.

Yes, you are right, they are not doomed to obsolescence. It's just that many people have a rather rigid mindset, and therefore they are reluctant to learn new things. For example, online lecture, presentation, and video technologies in the educational process became widely available in Russia somewhere around 2010, when the Internet speed even in the provinces became sufficient. But teachers ignored them: they wrote with chalk on a blackboard in the old-fashioned way, lectured from the podium. The COVID pandemic led to a forced transition to distance learning, and then professors, willy-nilly, had to quickly master new work techniques: create electronic presentations, record lectures on video, master Internet platforms. For many people aged 60-70, this turned out to be an impossible task, and they were forced to retire. And others, even in old age, were able to overcome the inertia of routine and master something new. Everyone has different adaptability.

Assuming that we are talking about liberal democracies I think that humanities are not hurt by people following the law, being patriotic, and having a religion. I think that you can have critical thinking while still being good citizens

I lived under liberal democracy for only 3 years - from 1991 to 1993, when the parliament was shot and a new constitution was adopted, giving the presidential power authoritarian powers. Therefore, it is difficult for me to judge such a democracy, it was instantly swept away by the processes of concentration of capital and power in the hands of the top. And then religion began to be interpreted in the spirit of unquestioning obedience to the rulers ("all power comes from God"), patriotism also in the spirit of obedience to the rulers (commanders on behalf of the homeland), and law-abidingness implied the absence of questions about whose interests the laws were adopted - the majority of the population or a handful of dignitaries and oligarchs. I lived longer in the USSR than under liberal democracy, and even managed to memorize in school the Marxist theory that the ruling classes use religion and patriotism as levers, and the law is the "codified tyranny of the ruling class." The practice of 1993-2024 confirmed this theory.

[Pierconium]

Well? These people did ok with liberal arts degrees.

https://time.com/3964415/ceo-degree-liberal-arts/

There are many well known computer scientists as well…..

Shhh... some people in this thread think that if you aren't going to school to learn something through rote memorization in order to work 40-50 hours per week for 45-50 weeks per year at a job you likely hate and are bored at for the rest of your life that it isn't worth getting an "education."