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[RP Thread] Repeal: GA 8 "World Assembly Headquarters"

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Illahee
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[RP Thread] Repeal: GA 8 "World Assembly Headquarters"

Postby Illahee » Tue Oct 22, 2024 10:58 pm

Target: https://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_past_resolution/id=8/council=1

Direct all praise to Illahee and all criticism to Varanius.

Repeal: "World Assembly Headquarters"

Recognizing that GA 8, the resolution establishing the World Assembly Office of Building Management (OBM) and a centralized World Assembly headquarters, is inefficient and misguided in both its conception and execution;

Concerned that the resolution diverts valuable resources away from the WA’s primary mission of addressing critical global issues such as universal rights, economic development, and environmental preservation, by focusing on the costly and redundant task of real estate management;

Acknowledging that the authority granted to the OBM to impose arbitrary fees on member nations for office space and facilities usage creates opportunities for inequitable treatment and financial burdens, disproportionately affecting smaller or less influential states, especially as these fees are imposed on top of existing member dues mandated by GA 17 'WA General Fund,' resulting in double-dipping and placing undue hardship on less prosperous nations;

Emphasizing that the legitimacy of the WA does not depend on a physical headquarters, but on the international cooperation, diplomacy, and shared values that the WA fosters can be achieved without centralized physical infrastructure;

Noting that the establishment of a WA headquarters on "neutral international territory" risks sparking territorial disputes, legal complications, and geopolitical tensions, which contradicts the resolution's aim of promoting international harmony;

Disapproving of the dismissive and unprofessional language used in the resolution to describe WA diplomats, which undermines the dignity and credibility of the World Assembly as a serious international body;

Hereby repeals GA 8 "World Assembly Headquarters."

Co-author: Varanius
Last edited by Illahee on Sat Jan 25, 2025 2:12 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Haymarket Riot
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Postby Haymarket Riot » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:24 am

I might add that the arbitrary fees you mention are in addition to the donations that WA member states already give to fund the WA, effectively double-charging them for a building they already pay for

For.
Last edited by Haymarket Riot on Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Illahee
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Postby Illahee » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:59 am

We call that "phase two."
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Haymarket Riot
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Postby Haymarket Riot » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:41 am

Illahee wrote:We call that "phase two."

Still valid to include in the repeal, in my view, but point taken lol
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Belleroph
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Postby Belleroph » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:53 am

Support

"Emphasizing" and "Noting" feel particularly compelling, the WA should strive to be neutral in its handling of WA affairs and the presence of a particular headquarters feels antithetical to this notion.
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Bisofeyr
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Postby Bisofeyr » Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:03 am

I’m not particularly concerned with the usage of WA funds going toward creating a building for operation. It is a drop in the bucket compared to some other irresponsible usages of WA funds, and it goes towards something that (in my opinion) is essential to its operation.

You claim that the WA’s mission can be achieved “without centralized physical infrastructure”; how is this supposed to work in practice? Especially for nations such as mine, which do not have access to the internet for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: in compliance with the OP, this is all directed at Vara!
Last edited by Bisofeyr on Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Varanius
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Postby Varanius » Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:21 am

Bisofeyr wrote:You claim that the WA’s mission can be achieved “without centralized physical infrastructure”; how is this supposed to work in practice? Especially for nations such as mine, which do not have access to the internet for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: in compliance with the OP, this is all directed at Vara!
This is a complaint that could realistically be made about any sort of gathering place given the variety of development and infrastructure in WA states. How is a nation that bans planes and cars supposed to travel to the current HQ building?
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:24 am

Leaning against - I do ICly think that the Headquarters provide much-needed structure to the WA, without which ambassadors would be at the mercy of dodgy WiFi.

Also, I am fairly confident that the WA has found land for its headquarters already, making the NOTING clause largely irrelevant.
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Postby Anduava » Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:25 am

Varanius wrote:
Bisofeyr wrote:You claim that the WA’s mission can be achieved “without centralized physical infrastructure”; how is this supposed to work in practice? Especially for nations such as mine, which do not have access to the internet for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: in compliance with the OP, this is all directed at Vara!
This is a complaint that could realistically be made about any sort of gathering place given the variety of development and infrastructure in WA states. How is a nation that bans planes and cars supposed to travel to the current HQ building?


How do nations without internet and planes/cars interact with the WA at all?

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Varanius
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Postby Varanius » Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:35 am

Anduava wrote:
Varanius wrote: This is a complaint that could realistically be made about any sort of gathering place given the variety of development and infrastructure in WA states. How is a nation that bans planes and cars supposed to travel to the current HQ building?


How do nations without internet and planes/cars interact with the WA at all?
Paperwork and horses— I assume.

More seriously, that's kind of my point. WA legislation makes certain assumptions that nations broadly exist in a modern context, where long distance travel (and the internet) may not necessarily be easy, but are at possible, at the least at the governmental level. Arguments about "but what about a nation who bans X making achieving Y impossible" could be conceivably made about almost anything.
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Anduava
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Postby Anduava » Wed Oct 23, 2024 11:12 am

Varanius wrote:
Anduava wrote:
How do nations without internet and planes/cars interact with the WA at all?
Paperwork and horses— I assume.

More seriously, that's kind of my point. WA legislation makes certain assumptions that nations broadly exist in a modern context, where long distance travel (and the internet) may not necessarily be easy, but are at possible, at the least at the governmental level. Arguments about "but what about a nation who bans X making achieving Y impossible" could be conceivably made about almost anything.


OOC: I think Nationstates on a whole makes those assumptions, and any nation-state created subverting those assumptions is operating technically outside the scope of the game. Insofar as legitimately banning cars via in-game issues, for instance, there is a difference in banning them as a matter of public policy, and retaining them at a governmental level to aid international diplomacy. I think there should be a blanket expectation that if you're participating on the international scale, you need to be assumed to maintain infrastructure - at least for your governing bodies and/or diplomats - to be able to facilitate that in step with other nations. It's ridiculous to assume you can participate in international diplomacy via carrier pigeon, horse, or whatever else. That's kind of the point of the WA - you have to make decisions on how far you are willing to change your guidance of your nation to continue to participate.

I'm in support, here's two additional things to consider adding to your repeal proposal to strengthen it:

Lack of Necessity for Physical Headquarters: Modern international organizations and governments increasingly rely on digital infrastructure, virtual meetings, and decentralized operations. There is less need for a physical headquarters, especially when funds could be better allocated to pressing global challenges (e.g., climate change, health crises). We could promote virtual diplomacy, reducing the cost of real estate and office space - which would also be a more inclusive model, allowing smaller or less wealthy nations to participate equally without the burden of physical presence.

Unclear Benefits of a Centralized Office: The original proposal does not explain the tangible benefits of establishing a centralized WA office. The resolution assumes that a physical headquarters will increase legitimacy, but there is little evidence to suggest that this would be more effective than existing diplomatic channels. A centralized office does not necessarily improve the efficiency or legitimacy of the WA. Many successful international organizations operate with decentralized models that focus more on action and policy rather than office space.

EDIT: I've removed some of my other comments elsewhere in the forum to help prevent "poisoning" existing proposals in draft and reached out to the users who pointed out my utilization of AI in certain areas for more feedback. I'm leaving this comment here since the "damage" so to speak is already done.
Last edited by Anduava on Wed Oct 23, 2024 4:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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The Ice States
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Postby The Ice States » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:04 pm

"We see no compelling need for this repeal other than an apparent desire to rid the Assembly of its key institutions. We emphasise that neither you or me would be standing here in the absence of physical headquarters, that the writing of the 'dismissive and unprofessional language' in the target is far superior to that presented in this repeal, and that we see no means by which WA headquarters being on neutral territory will cause -- instead of preventing -- international conflict."

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Varanius
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Postby Varanius » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:10 pm

Unfortunately for the special guest, these physical altercations are oh so easy to lose, and we seem to have lost your most recent notes in some garbage dump. Kind regards.
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The Ice States
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Postby The Ice States » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:13 pm

Varanius wrote:Unfortunately for the special guest, these physical altercations are oh so easy to lose, and we seem to have lost your most recent notes in some garbage dump. Kind regards.

Ooc: Come on, if you're here to participate in the GA roleplay then you should do so properly. I do think this sort of snark in response to a perfectly civil, In-character point reflects poorly on the draft.

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Varanius
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Postby Varanius » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:17 pm

Man, I don’t think I remembered leaving the paper shredder on that counter! I can be so forgetful.

Feedback regarding the wording, arguments, and legality of the proposal is particularly appreciated.
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The Ice States
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Postby The Ice States » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:26 pm

Varanius wrote:Man, I don’t think I remembered leaving the paper shredder on that counter! I can be so forgetful.

Feedback regarding the wording, arguments, and legality of the proposal is particularly appreciated.

Ooc: Might as well play this game too then!

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Illahee
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Postby Illahee » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:28 pm

Haymarket Riot wrote:
Illahee wrote:We call that "phase two."

Still valid to include in the repeal, in my view, but point taken lol


Considering expanding language to include your suggestion.

Acknowledging that the authority granted to the OBM to impose arbitrary fees on member nations for office space and facilities usage creates opportunities for inequitable treatment and financial burdens, disproportionately affecting smaller or less influential states, especially as these fees are imposed on top of existing member dues mandated by GA 17 'WA General Fund,' resulting in double-dipping and placing undue hardship on less prosperous nations;
Last edited by Illahee on Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:32 pm

Anduava wrote:...here's two additional things to consider adding to your repeal proposal to strengthen it:

Lack of Necessity for Physical Headquarters: Modern international organizations and governments increasingly rely on digital infrastructure, virtual meetings, and decentralized operations. There is less need for a physical headquarters, especially when funds could be better allocated to pressing global challenges (e.g., climate change, health crises). We could promote virtual diplomacy, reducing the cost of real estate and office space - which would also be a more inclusive model, allowing smaller or less wealthy nations to participate equally without the burden of physical presence.

Unclear Benefits of a Centralized Office: The original proposal does not explain the tangible benefits of establishing a centralized WA office. The resolution assumes that a physical headquarters will increase legitimacy, but there is little evidence to suggest that this would be more effective than existing diplomatic channels. A centralized office does not necessarily improve the efficiency or legitimacy of the WA. Many successful international organizations operate with decentralized models that focus more on action and policy rather than office space.

I have noticed an increasing number of people - including older nations - using ChatGPT to generate resolution feedback. (Anduava isn't the first; Central Nation was fairly persistent at this a few weeks ago.)

I'd recommend that Bran and Vara not just copy-and-paste these points into their resolution, as they were generated by ChatGPT. Such clauses are likely to be frowned upon by many GAers because of their AI-generated origins, regardless of their actual merits.
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Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385, GA#597, GA#607, SC#415, GA#647, GA#656, GA#664, GA#671, GA#674, GA#675, GA#677, GA#680, Issue #1580, GA#682, GA#683, GA#684, GA#692, GA#693, GA#715, GA#757, GA#763
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Varanius
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Postby Varanius » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:35 pm

The Ice States wrote:
Varanius wrote:Man, I don’t think I remembered leaving the paper shredder on that counter! I can be so forgetful.

Feedback regarding the wording, arguments, and legality of the proposal is particularly appreciated.

Ooc: Might as well play this game too then!

"The comments provided by the statistician on our mission are precisely of the sort that you request. We would advise addressing them first."

~Claudia Lindner,
Deputy World Assembly Ambassador,
The Eternal Union of Devonia and the Ice States.
An indoor bonfire? Surely that’s against building code



Edit: thanks for the advice Tin, didn’t see it earlier
Last edited by Varanius on Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Illahee
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Postby Illahee » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:39 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Anduava wrote:...here's two additional things to consider adding to your repeal proposal to strengthen it:

Lack of Necessity for Physical Headquarters: Modern international organizations and governments increasingly rely on digital infrastructure, virtual meetings, and decentralized operations. There is less need for a physical headquarters, especially when funds could be better allocated to pressing global challenges (e.g., climate change, health crises). We could promote virtual diplomacy, reducing the cost of real estate and office space - which would also be a more inclusive model, allowing smaller or less wealthy nations to participate equally without the burden of physical presence.

Unclear Benefits of a Centralized Office: The original proposal does not explain the tangible benefits of establishing a centralized WA office. The resolution assumes that a physical headquarters will increase legitimacy, but there is little evidence to suggest that this would be more effective than existing diplomatic channels. A centralized office does not necessarily improve the efficiency or legitimacy of the WA. Many successful international organizations operate with decentralized models that focus more on action and policy rather than office space.

I have noticed an increasing number of people - including older nations - using ChatGPT to generate resolution feedback. (Anduava isn't the first; Central Nation was fairly persistent at this a few weeks ago.)

I'd recommend that Bran and Vara not just copy-and-paste these points into their resolution, as they were generated by ChatGPT. Such clauses are likely to be frowned upon by many GAers because of their AI-generated origins, regardless of their actual merits.


We won't be, especially with insight and suggestions from the likes of Haymaker Riot being made available to us.
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The Ice States
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Postby The Ice States » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:46 pm

Varanius wrote:
The Ice States wrote:Ooc: Might as well play this game too then!

"The comments provided by the statistician on our mission are precisely of the sort that you request. We would advise addressing them first."

~Claudia Lindner,
Deputy World Assembly Ambassador,
The Eternal Union of Devonia and the Ice States.
An indoor bonfire? Surely that’s against building code

"No building code would exist in the absence of the target; outside of perhaps the residence of Gratwick and her gnomes. And their treasured Strangers' Bar. The ability of a nation to easily burn down the Headquarters with no remedy is an argument against this repeal as written."

~Samuel Rothmann,
Senior WA Representative,
The Eternal Union of Devonia and the Ice States.
Last edited by The Ice States on Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Haymarket Riot
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Postby Haymarket Riot » Wed Oct 23, 2024 1:22 pm

Illahee wrote:
Haymarket Riot wrote:Still valid to include in the repeal, in my view, but point taken lol


Considering expanding language to include your suggestion.

Acknowledging that the authority granted to the OBM to impose arbitrary fees on member nations for office space and facilities usage creates opportunities for inequitable treatment and financial burdens, disproportionately affecting smaller or less influential states, especially as these fees are imposed on top of existing member dues mandated by GA 17 'WA General Fund,' resulting in double-dipping and placing undue hardship on less prosperous nations;

Looks good to me!
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Bisofeyr
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Postby Bisofeyr » Wed Oct 23, 2024 1:57 pm

Varanius wrote:
Bisofeyr wrote:You claim that the WA’s mission can be achieved “without centralized physical infrastructure”; how is this supposed to work in practice? Especially for nations such as mine, which do not have access to the internet for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: in compliance with the OP, this is all directed at Vara!
This is a complaint that could realistically be made about any sort of gathering place given the variety of development and infrastructure in WA states. How is a nation that bans planes and cars supposed to travel to the current HQ building?

I mean, I hate RP-Wank as much as the next guy (which is why I don't cite some of the more ridiculous aspects of my RP as opposition to proposals), but I don't think a country not having strong internet connections (or, in my case, a connection at all) would be considered RP-Wank, considering there have been similar connectivity issues in real-life (with the example in that article even being in the US, which one would imagine should have plenty sufficient internet capabilities). The truth is, the internet is simply unreliable for many members, and I think that essentially ridding the Assembly of in-person meetings is a disservice to it, and I still don't fully buy the argument that the WA's purpose could be effectively achieved without some sort of centralized meeting place; there's a reason that this was one of the first issues on the WA's agenda, preceding even C/C's and the Security Council.

Anduava wrote:
Varanius wrote: Paperwork and horses— I assume.

More seriously, that's kind of my point. WA legislation makes certain assumptions that nations broadly exist in a modern context, where long distance travel (and the internet) may not necessarily be easy, but are at possible, at the least at the governmental level. Arguments about "but what about a nation who bans X making achieving Y impossible" could be conceivably made about almost anything.


OOC: I think Nationstates on a whole makes those assumptions, and any nation-state created subverting those assumptions is operating technically outside the scope of the game. Insofar as legitimately banning cars via in-game issues, for instance, there is a difference in banning them as a matter of public policy, and retaining them at a governmental level to aid international diplomacy. I think there should be a blanket expectation that if you're participating on the international scale, you need to be assumed to maintain infrastructure - at least for your governing bodies and/or diplomats - to be able to facilitate that in step with other nations. It's ridiculous to assume you can participate in international diplomacy via carrier pigeon, horse, or whatever else. That's kind of the point of the WA - you have to make decisions on how far you are willing to change your guidance of your nation to continue to participate.

NationStates does not make these assumptions, notably, and even has gameside policies to allow players to form their nations into these kinds of places; to say that this is "operating... outside the scope of the game" is wholly untrue.

Yes, it makes it difficult for a member which does not have all the aspects of a modern nation to adhere to all current regulations, but in almost every case, if something would not apply to a nation, it simply has no effect. Regulations surrounding elections do not affect autocracies, regulations surrounding automobiles do not affect nations that do not have cars. But yes, for small and under-developed nations, there very well may be a barrier to entry, simply due to the sheer amount of regulations they must be adherent to; that is fundamentally different than what you are asserting.
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Second Sovereignty
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Postby Second Sovereignty » Wed Oct 23, 2024 2:12 pm

Raxes steps around a rather grim looking paper-shredder - is that blood? No, surely not - ink, for certain. Nonetheless, a rather unprofessional way for the authors to be regarding criticism - and not even impolite criticism, from the copies Masraan had found for him. Alas.

Illahee wrote:Recognizing that GA 8, the resolution establishing the World Assembly Office of Building Management (OBM) and a centralized World Assembly headquarters, is inefficient and misguided in both its conception and execution;


"Inefficient, I will grant, - if only as Management has yet to resolve the matter of the massive horizontal beam running through the middle of our office, - though 'misguided' is perhaps something of a reach." Raxes clicked, "We would certainly hope, of course, that your government does not think similarly of its own administrative and archival centers; one would have to wonder how you get anything done."

Illahee wrote:Concerned that the resolution diverts valuable resources away from the WA’s primary mission of addressing critical global issues such as universal rights, economic development, and environmental preservation, by focusing on the costly and redundant task of real estate management;


"Redundant, how, exactly? Ambassador, are you, quite aware of where you're standing? A centralized, consistent headquarters for international affairs; these halls host drafts, as I hope you understand, contain legal archives, barracks for the World Assembly's myriad personnel, formalized diplomatic offices for Member-States, - an, international forum, as it were. It's hardly a distraction at all; rather, a crucial part, and simple necessity, of international operations. Perhaps consider elaborating rather than simply stating as-given."

Illahee wrote:Acknowledging that the authority granted to the OBM to impose arbitrary fees on member nations for office space and facilities usage creates opportunities for inequitable treatment and financial burdens, disproportionately affecting smaller or less influential states;


"I, for one, would like to know where exactly you're getting the idea that the Management is running some sort of, office-space extortion racket. Indeed, the fees the Office is permitted are required to be both fair and reasonable; while Member-States might not be trusted with such vagueries, the World Assembly itself simply must be, else the law as-written is no more than convenience. Or, inconvenience, as the case may be."

Illahee wrote:Emphasizing that the legitimacy of the WA does not depend on a physical headquarters, but on the international cooperation, diplomacy, and shared values that the WA fosters can be achieved without centralized physical infrastructure;


"I will say, Ambassador, that while you are surely strictly correct on legitimacy not being predicated on physical infrastructure, that physical infrastructure serves a very material and pragmatic purpose. That being, infrastructure." He paused, seemingly for dramatic effect. "A place wherein one might have their grievances and disputes heard, wherein treaties and any other manner of diplomatic affair be brokered or argued - indeed, where even citizens of Member-States may come to handle whatever business they need within the terms of international law. Fundamentally, you are arguing against facilities. I would expect you to do so, rather than position this as some sort of, merely ideological affair."

Illahee wrote:Noting that the establishment of a WA headquarters on "neutral international territory" risks sparking territorial disputes, legal complications, and geopolitical tensions, which contradicts the resolution's aim of promoting international harmony;


"How, exactly? Genuinely, short of certain influential Member-States complaining for not being granted the prestige of its residence on their national territory, - frankly, pathetic whining to which the International community need not be hostage, - what could you possibly be referring to?"

Illahee wrote:Disapproving of the dismissive and unprofessional language used in the resolution to describe WA diplomats, which undermines the dignity and credibility of the World Assembly as a serious international body;


"As someone who might be quite accurately described by at least three of the terms listed," Raxes chittered, "I assure you I do not feel remotely undermined, and, as it happens, some dear friends of mine could well be described as 'honest family types', though I shudder to say it."

Anduava wrote:OOC: I think Nationstates on a whole makes those assumptions, and any nation-state created subverting those assumptions is operating technically outside the scope of the game. Insofar as legitimately banning cars via in-game issues, for instance, there is a difference in banning them as a matter of public policy, and retaining them at a governmental level to aid international diplomacy. [...] It's ridiculous to assume you can participate in international diplomacy via carrier pigeon, horse, or whatever else. That's kind of the point of the WA - you have to make decisions on how far you are willing to change your guidance of your nation to continue to participate.


OOC:
This is something of a flattening of the assumptions made in the GA; it is generally correct that the World Assembly presumes a modern context for nations, but it is long convention that it accommodates and accounts for other sorts of nations. Member-States have reached the headquarters by way of magical or sci-fi portal device, unspecified long and arduous treks, et-cetera - it's not uncommon, as you may have noticed, for some Member-States to handle their WA business by letter or telegram, - that is for players to come up with in their RP. Indeed, Member-States without anything we would describe as a government - anarchist collectives and vast alien hiveminds, for example, - have also been here.
GA Refugee of The Communist Bloc.
Puppet of Tinfect.
Raxes Sotriat, Envoy-Major to the World Assembly, Kestil, he/him
Masraan Olash, Envoy-Minor to the World Assembly, Alsuran, he/him
Maraline, Administrative Aide, Hanri, she/her


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.
Good Lord, I've barely made this Puppet and you want FACTBOOKS? Check again soon.

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Illahee
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 65
Founded: Jan 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Illahee » Sat Oct 26, 2024 7:58 am

Last call before I hand Vara a jug of gas and book of matches.
Illahee (aka Bran Astor)
Founder of The Sasquatch Republic (2018-present)
Delegate (ret.) of The West Pacific (2019-2020)
Member of the Ex-Feeder Tyrant Club

Natives don't exist outside the GCR of their founding.

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