NATION

PASSWORD

The Plot to Manage Democracy

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Danternoust
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1462
Founded: Jan 20, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

The Plot to Manage Democracy

Postby Danternoust » Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:21 pm

https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-plot-to-manage-democracy

If not for a last-minute postponement, a Manhattan judge would have sentenced Donald Trump for the former president’s conviction last May by the time this article appeared, in what could fairly be characterized by an objective observer as a politically motivated trial, intended to hamper his 2024 presidential campaign. The charges pushed the “outer boundaries of the law and due process,” according to a former federal and state prosecutor, now working as an analyst for CNN—not exactly a bastion of conservative bias. The judge in the trial, Juan Merchan, previously violated New York State ethics rules by donating to Joe Biden’s 2020 campaign and to a group called Stop Republicans. The judge’s daughter, Loren Merchan, a professional political operative, has done campaign work for both Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, the Democratic presidential nominee. After repeatedly refusing to recuse himself over such conflicts of interest, Merchan barred Trump’s lawyers from arguing that the trial might be politically motivated. He had originally scheduled the sentencing for September 18, roughly six weeks before the election. (In late August, Trump was also reindicted on election-subversion charges by special counsel Jack Smith, in what Politico described as “an attempt to recalibrate the case after the Supreme Court’s immunity decision” in July.)


The shift to legal warfare was foreshadowed in the lead-up to the 2020 race. One notable case involves the Transition Integrity Project (TIP), an election initiative launched in 2019 under the auspices of a different group, Protect Democracy, founded by a team of lawyers who had served as White House counsels under Obama. The project, explained one of its founders, Ian Bassin, grew “out of concern that the Trump administration may seek to manipulate” the 2020 election.

The initiative gathered roughly 100 influential people, including leading Democratic officials, like Hillary Clinton’s campaign chief John Podesta, and members of the media and NGO world, to wargame potential scenarios resulting from a contested election. In one scenario, Podesta, playing the role of Joe Biden, refused to accept a Trump election victory and threatened to seize control over several West Coast states and secede from the rest of the country unless congressional Republicans agreed to demands, including the elimination of the Electoral College. The move was sufficiently egregious to provoke criticism from other participants in the wargame. And yet, according to the TIP report on the event, Podesta’s secession gambit, far from a flight of personal fancy, was carried out “with advice from President Obama.” In a detailed report on TIP’s exercises, Matt Taibbi describes “multiple passages on the subject of abiding by and/or trusting in the law, and how this can be a weakness.”


The original information operation of the modern era, the Russia-collusion hoax, hijacked the American political system and has yet to let it go. The false claim that Donald Trump was a Kremlin agent and that Russia “hacked” the 2016 election was—to borrow a term—disinformation, launched into the nation’s political culture by Obama and Clinton officials, working with top U.S. intelligence figures, including former CIA chief John Brennan. It was Brennan who inserted the fabricated Steele Dossier into the official record by including it in an official CIA report. With the imprimatur of credentialed intelligence professionals, the Russiagate conspiracy was then spread by a credulous media apparatus and reinforced by think tank and academic “experts.” Most significantly, it led to special counsel Robert Mueller’s 22-month investigation of the Trump campaign’s purported collusion with Russia to sway the 2016 election, which found no evidence of such a conspiracy.

In a sense, the lack of fearmongering about Trump being a “Kremlin stooge” is one of the most conspicuous features of the current election. The Russia trope hasn’t disappeared entirely—one article published in August warned of “How Russian gender-based disinformation could influence the 2024 U.S. presidential election”—but its diminishing significance suggests both public exhaustion with the strategy and a maturation of the informational control system.

The party-state’s ability to replace Joe Biden with Kamala Harris in a matter of weeks, and with the support of Democratic voters (in effect, disenfranchising 15 million primary voters who had overwhelmingly endorsed the president’s reelection bid) and most of the media, signals that it now has the power to make more or less anything seem normal. Having conditioned the public to accept a constant stream of propaganda, party officials can now openly laugh about how preposterous and unconvincing their own talking points have become—as recently happened when California governor and likely future presidential candidate Gavin Newsom was asked on the Obama-bro Pod Save America show how he was feeling about “the switch” that replaced Biden with Harris. Newsom responded by mocking the very absurdity of the question. “We went through a very open process, a very inclusive process,” Newsom said, while guffawing with the show’s hosts. “It was bottom-up, I don’t know if you know that. That’s what I’ve been told to say.” Meantime, serious concerns about election integrity get dismissed as evidence of a right-wing conspiracy.



My opinion? Our elites are no longer interested in maintaining the appearances of democracy, relying on the news media staying silent as witting accomplices. An increasingly partisan civil service does not bode well. Though I must admit, the Democratic Party is the party of China, and the Republican Party is the party of Russia.

User avatar
Liberal Malaysia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 734
Founded: Oct 08, 2021
New York Times Democracy

Postby Liberal Malaysia » Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:08 pm

The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.
FUCK PALESTINE. STAND WITH ISRAEL.
NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE. WE ARE ALL INFIDELS. EXISTENCE IS RESISTANCE.
How non-Muslim infidels are ACTUALLY treated in Islam
There is no such thing as "Islamophobia"
There is no one I respect and admire more than Douglas Murray.
#TRUMPVANCE2024
Factbooks | Dispatches | Pro/anti | Based forumposts, dispatches & sigs by others
Right-wing atheist. Neither liberal nor conservative.

User avatar
Kreigsreich of Iron
Senator
 
Posts: 3748
Founded: Jul 11, 2022
Corporate Police State

Postby Kreigsreich of Iron » Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:47 am

Liberal Malaysia wrote:The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.

The only thing wrong with this argument is that the Democrats would take most of that as a compliment.

RIP Glorious Freedonia


Winter's Wake: a RP now showing in a P2M near you! - From the river to the sea, the Jewish people will be free!

User avatar
Republica De La Argentina
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 15, 2024
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Republica De La Argentina » Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:56 am

Liberal Malaysia wrote:The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.

I mean DEM party and REP party are same poop different animal. Its just REP party animal poop smells slightly less worse. Like horse poop. Horse poop smels good and good for crops.
Last edited by Republica De La Argentina on Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hi am born in Bealrus. City Zhodiono. I love Bealrus.

User avatar
Corporate Collective Salvation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5058
Founded: Mar 22, 2023
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Corporate Collective Salvation » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:03 am

This is a very old "progression".
Americans are some of the most dangerously ignorant of their own history people on the planet.
Especially progressives, who stopped asking "progressive what?" a long time ago.
The founding premise of progressivism is the establishment of an administrated state.
A bureaucratic technocracy that manages people however it likes regardless of how they vote.
To answer the question, a progressive (incremental) authoritarianism.
“The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature.”
- Joseph Campbell

User avatar
Khadgar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11414
Founded: Antiquity
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Khadgar » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:06 am

Have you considered starting a podcast?

User avatar
Floofybit
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11951
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:22 am

Republica De La Argentina wrote:
Liberal Malaysia wrote:The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.

I mean DEM party and REP party are same poop different animal. Its just REP party animal poop smells slightly less worse. Like horse poop. Horse poop smels good and good for crops.

I can't believe the parties have gotten so far past abysmal that poop comparatively smells good
Compass: Northwest
Reformative Authoritarian Pacifist
Pro: Socialism, Authoritarianism, The Right To Life, Environment, Public Services, Government, Equity and Equality, Surveillance, Police, Religion, Pacifism, Fruit
Anti: Capitalism, Liberalism, Abortion, Anarchy, Inequality, Crime, Drugs, Guns, Violence, Fruit-Haters
Religious ace male floof who really loves fruit.
Broadcasting From Foxlington
Safety & Equality > Freedom
If I CTE hold a funeral because I'm dead :)
CHRISTMAS!!!!! (⁠*⁠ノ⁠・⁠ω⁠・⁠)⁠ノ⁠♫
Telegram me your favourite colour, I'm doing a survey

User avatar
Republica De La Argentina
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 15, 2024
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Republica De La Argentina » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:28 am

Floofybit wrote:
Republica De La Argentina wrote:I mean DEM party and REP party are same poop different animal. Its just REP party animal poop smells slightly less worse. Like horse poop. Horse poop smels good and good for crops.

I can't believe the parties have gotten so far past abysmal that poop comparatively smells good

I mean if you looked at both of them and they is majority. They is both bad. Trump and Kamala are not good. But we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.
Hi am born in Bealrus. City Zhodiono. I love Bealrus.

User avatar
Kostane
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5323
Founded: Nov 07, 2022
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kostane » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:51 am

Corporate Collective Salvation wrote:This is a very old "progression".
Americans are some of the most dangerously ignorant of their own history people on the planet.
Especially progressives, who stopped asking "progressive what?" a long time ago.
The founding premise of progressivism is the establishment of an administrated state.
A bureaucratic technocracy that manages people however it likes regardless of how they vote.
To answer the question, a progressive (incremental) authoritarianism.

Source needed.
Danternoust wrote:https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-plot-to-manage-democracy

If not for a last-minute postponement, a Manhattan judge would have sentenced Donald Trump for the former president’s conviction last May by the time this article appeared, in what could fairly be characterized by an objective observer as a politically motivated trial, intended to hamper his 2024 presidential campaign. The charges pushed the “outer boundaries of the law and due process,” according to a former federal and state prosecutor, now working as an analyst for CNN—not exactly a bastion of conservative bias. The judge in the trial, Juan Merchan, previously violated New York State ethics rules by donating to Joe Biden’s 2020 campaign and to a group called Stop Republicans. The judge’s daughter, Loren Merchan, a professional political operative, has done campaign work for both Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, the Democratic presidential nominee. After repeatedly refusing to recuse himself over such conflicts of interest, Merchan barred Trump’s lawyers from arguing that the trial might be politically motivated. He had originally scheduled the sentencing for September 18, roughly six weeks before the election. (In late August, Trump was also reindicted on election-subversion charges by special counsel Jack Smith, in what Politico described as “an attempt to recalibrate the case after the Supreme Court’s immunity decision” in July.)


The shift to legal warfare was foreshadowed in the lead-up to the 2020 race. One notable case involves the Transition Integrity Project (TIP), an election initiative launched in 2019 under the auspices of a different group, Protect Democracy, founded by a team of lawyers who had served as White House counsels under Obama. The project, explained one of its founders, Ian Bassin, grew “out of concern that the Trump administration may seek to manipulate” the 2020 election.

The initiative gathered roughly 100 influential people, including leading Democratic officials, like Hillary Clinton’s campaign chief John Podesta, and members of the media and NGO world, to wargame potential scenarios resulting from a contested election. In one scenario, Podesta, playing the role of Joe Biden, refused to accept a Trump election victory and threatened to seize control over several West Coast states and secede from the rest of the country unless congressional Republicans agreed to demands, including the elimination of the Electoral College. The move was sufficiently egregious to provoke criticism from other participants in the wargame. And yet, according to the TIP report on the event, Podesta’s secession gambit, far from a flight of personal fancy, was carried out “with advice from President Obama.” In a detailed report on TIP’s exercises, Matt Taibbi describes “multiple passages on the subject of abiding by and/or trusting in the law, and how this can be a weakness.”


The original information operation of the modern era, the Russia-collusion hoax, hijacked the American political system and has yet to let it go. The false claim that Donald Trump was a Kremlin agent and that Russia “hacked” the 2016 election was—to borrow a term—disinformation, launched into the nation’s political culture by Obama and Clinton officials, working with top U.S. intelligence figures, including former CIA chief John Brennan. It was Brennan who inserted the fabricated Steele Dossier into the official record by including it in an official CIA report. With the imprimatur of credentialed intelligence professionals, the Russiagate conspiracy was then spread by a credulous media apparatus and reinforced by think tank and academic “experts.” Most significantly, it led to special counsel Robert Mueller’s 22-month investigation of the Trump campaign’s purported collusion with Russia to sway the 2016 election, which found no evidence of such a conspiracy.

In a sense, the lack of fearmongering about Trump being a “Kremlin stooge” is one of the most conspicuous features of the current election. The Russia trope hasn’t disappeared entirely—one article published in August warned of “How Russian gender-based disinformation could influence the 2024 U.S. presidential election”—but its diminishing significance suggests both public exhaustion with the strategy and a maturation of the informational control system.

The party-state’s ability to replace Joe Biden with Kamala Harris in a matter of weeks, and with the support of Democratic voters (in effect, disenfranchising 15 million primary voters who had overwhelmingly endorsed the president’s reelection bid) and most of the media, signals that it now has the power to make more or less anything seem normal. Having conditioned the public to accept a constant stream of propaganda, party officials can now openly laugh about how preposterous and unconvincing their own talking points have become—as recently happened when California governor and likely future presidential candidate Gavin Newsom was asked on the Obama-bro Pod Save America show how he was feeling about “the switch” that replaced Biden with Harris. Newsom responded by mocking the very absurdity of the question. “We went through a very open process, a very inclusive process,” Newsom said, while guffawing with the show’s hosts. “It was bottom-up, I don’t know if you know that. That’s what I’ve been told to say.” Meantime, serious concerns about election integrity get dismissed as evidence of a right-wing conspiracy.



My opinion? Our elites are no longer interested in maintaining the appearances of democracy, relying on the news media staying silent as witting accomplices. An increasingly partisan civil service does not bode well. Though I must admit, the Democratic Party is the party of China, and the Republican Party is the party of Russia.

I know, the election denialism and interference in this country is crazy. Like how Trump tried to overturn the electoral college. That’s an attempt to “manage” democracy — literally when he doesn’t get the result he wanted, he tries to make Mike Pence refuse to certify an election, which Trump’s own officials said was ”the most secure in American history.” That is a plot to manage democracy. It’s also a crime, so don’t wonder why he’s being charged with all the crimes he committed.

Meanwhile, in Georgia, Republicans are warrantlessly challenging thousands of voters. The goal is to disrupt the system of democracy by intimidating the voters into not voter. Let’s be clear: when more people vote, the system is more democratic. Managed democracy tries to limit the people’s vote. That’s what Republicans are doing.

Find any serious concerns of election integrity by the Democrats. Literally, any. I will refute them, because it is Republicans who are trying to stop our democratic right to vote because they know that if the people had a choice, they wouldn’t choose 4 more years of an old man obsessed with his own revenge.

I’ll go through your articles one by one:

The first one is an example of the justice system. Trump has committed a crime. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury (so don’t go complaining about the judge) that he is a felon. He also has the right to repeal the decision, like any other criminal defendant. He committed a crime, and he deserves to face the consequences. But Republicans seem to only believe in justice when it’s against their opponents or minorities.

The second one is an example of a bipartisan effort to stop exactly what Trump intended to do on January 6 of 2021. It’s not a democratic conspiracy. They do war games to find the weaknesses in the system so that they can prepare for a wannabe dictator like Donald Trump.

The third one is a literal nothing burger. It says Democrats accused Trump of using Russian interference in 2016. How is that managing democracy or election interference? Then it’s mad that they replaced Biden, even though the article literally says it had the support of Democrats. This is not inherently anti-democratic. Parties are not part of the government, and as such their nominees do not need to be elected. This is just Republicans being worried because they know that Trump’s a horrible candidate who can’t stand up against a qualified challenging.

The projection required to claim that Democrats are engaging in election interference is absolutely nuts. Republican officials have attempted to suppress the vote in several states. All you have is a bunch of nothing assertions that are unrelated to the actual counting of votes.
Kostane is an old nation, rising from its enslavement to an AI overlord with attempts to be a global superpower.
Hi there! Pronouns are he/him, I’m a high schooler from Illinois who does debate in his free time (in addition to NS).
Kostane

I picked these not to tell a true tale, but to make myself look good, obviously.
Almighty Biden wrote:
Kostane wrote:

Wow. That's exactly right.
Are you a nation on the globe? Do you need security? Would you prefer that security to be organized? If only there were an Global Security Organization to help you with that...

User avatar
Azurnailia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1231
Founded: Apr 05, 2024
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Azurnailia » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:54 am

Moral of the story:

America is going to hell, either painted in red or blue.
NS stats and Policies were sent to die in the commie genocide
#Nothingbuiltcanlastforever
He/him IRL, She/her in RP
Souverain Revachol wrote:+parry +ultraricoshot +down to size +fistful of dollar +quickdraw +projectile boost
Welcome to Azurnailia!
Finding and destroying anyone who outstamps Political rights since 1793!

Today I'm Feeling Authoritarian Socialism

Two things: 1 I AM NOT A FEMALE, 2 I AM NOT A TSUNDERE. thank you for your time

User avatar
Distruzio
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24599
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Distruzio » Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:17 am

Liberal Malaysia wrote:The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.


When you put it that way I find myself sympathetic to the Dems.
Democracy is neither of the people nor by the people. Monarchy, however, is for the people.

Not post-modern, archeomodern

Eastern Orthodox Christian
Christ is King
Glorify Him

capitalism is not natural
secularism is not neutral
liberalism is not tolerant

User avatar
Corporate Collective Salvation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5058
Founded: Mar 22, 2023
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Corporate Collective Salvation » Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:26 am

Kostane wrote:
Corporate Collective Salvation wrote:This is a very old "progression".
Americans are some of the most dangerously ignorant of their own history people on the planet.
Especially progressives, who stopped asking "progressive what?" a long time ago.
The founding premise of progressivism is the establishment of an administrated state.
A bureaucratic technocracy that manages people however it likes regardless of how they vote.
To answer the question, a progressive (incremental) authoritarianism.

Source needed.

Make a sandwich, first.

https://ballotpedia.org/Administrative_state
“The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature.”
- Joseph Campbell

User avatar
Washington-Columbia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 807
Founded: Jan 29, 2022
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Washington-Columbia » Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:22 am

Liberal Malaysia wrote:democrat orwellian republican good

Have you actually read any of George Orwell's books? This isn't even the point of 1984 or Animal Farm.
Imagine a bunch of socialist hikers, conservative lumberjacks and socdem hippies trying to make a utopia. That's us.
Overview
SHUT UP [names of neo-nazis], YOURE NOT A SS OFFICER SENT TO DESTROY WOKE HEGIMONY, YOURE AN EDGY 14-YEAR-OLD WHO LIVES IN CHICAGO
Barbie is an Allegory for Animal Farm. Kens (Animals) seize control over the Barbies (Humans) and Ryan Gosling seizes power himself (Napoleon the Pig) and keeps much of the status quo.
Extended OOC
CASCADIAN UNION
Murica and Canadeh's progressive brother
Home to Deadpool, Batman and Jesse Pinkman
NS stats have smoked too much grass & are sleeping RN
CBC N5 Weekly News:Riots in Georgia after GE-RU collaboration bill - Mr. Frog/Man bid wins with over 604 EC votes - SCOTUS says "trans people are hella f***** balls-to-the-wall-awesome" in landmark 8-1 ruling

User avatar
Untecna
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6544
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:39 am

I see logical progression is in short supply today. Supply chain issues are really hitting the forums now.
Dragon with internet access. I am coming for your data. More for the hoard.
NS stats and policies are not canon. Except my scientific advancement score.
49rs | Vols
Issues Author (#1520) | Failed GA Resolution Author

User avatar
Untecna
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6544
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:40 am

Liberal Malaysia wrote:The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.

So you haven't actually read Orwell, got it.
Dragon with internet access. I am coming for your data. More for the hoard.
NS stats and policies are not canon. Except my scientific advancement score.
49rs | Vols
Issues Author (#1520) | Failed GA Resolution Author

User avatar
Kreigsreich of Iron
Senator
 
Posts: 3748
Founded: Jul 11, 2022
Corporate Police State

Postby Kreigsreich of Iron » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:43 am

Washington-Columbia wrote:
Liberal Malaysia wrote:democrat orwellian republican good

Have you actually read any of George Orwell's books? This isn't even the point of 1984 or Animal Farm.

I mean, an obsession with power for power’s sake and control, an urge to police how people feel and think, twisting the English language beyond recognition…

RIP Glorious Freedonia


Winter's Wake: a RP now showing in a P2M near you! - From the river to the sea, the Jewish people will be free!

User avatar
Untecna
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6544
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:46 am

Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:
Washington-Columbia wrote:Have you actually read any of George Orwell's books? This isn't even the point of 1984 or Animal Farm.

I mean, an obsession with power for power’s sake and control, an urge to police how people feel and think, twisting the English language beyond recognition…

Features of a story are not the overall point of a story. Not to mention that Orwell's literature is just that: pure fiction.
Dragon with internet access. I am coming for your data. More for the hoard.
NS stats and policies are not canon. Except my scientific advancement score.
49rs | Vols
Issues Author (#1520) | Failed GA Resolution Author

User avatar
Kreigsreich of Iron
Senator
 
Posts: 3748
Founded: Jul 11, 2022
Corporate Police State

Postby Kreigsreich of Iron » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:48 am

Untecna wrote:
Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:I mean, an obsession with power for power’s sake and control, an urge to police how people feel and think, twisting the English language beyond recognition…

Features of a story are not the overall point of a story. Not to mention that Orwell's literature is just that: pure fiction.

Then what is the point?

RIP Glorious Freedonia


Winter's Wake: a RP now showing in a P2M near you! - From the river to the sea, the Jewish people will be free!

User avatar
Corporate Collective Salvation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5058
Founded: Mar 22, 2023
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Corporate Collective Salvation » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:48 am

Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:
Washington-Columbia wrote:Have you actually read any of George Orwell's books? This isn't even the point of 1984 or Animal Farm.

I mean, an obsession with power for power’s sake and control, an urge to police how people feel and think, twisting the English language beyond recognition…

...beginning with a rather condescending view of humanity that descends to the Luciferan.
People cannot help/govern themselves, and therefore should not according to many power mongers of all stripes.
Last edited by Corporate Collective Salvation on Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature.”
- Joseph Campbell

User avatar
Kaldon
Envoy
 
Posts: 233
Founded: Feb 25, 2024
New York Times Democracy

Postby Kaldon » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:53 am

Liberal Malaysia wrote:The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.

By all means, explain what you mean by this. I genuinely don’t understand how you can be this disillusioned. Yeah sure, you can dislike the Democrats and vote for Trump and all that, but … to say they are an Islamic party just because, what, they are ok with letting immigrants in?

Like, how is Kamala more of a threat to democracy than Trump? Sure, you could believe he isn’t a threat to democracy, but to say that Kamala Harris and the Democrats are more of a threat is barmy.
Untecna wrote:
Liberal Malaysia wrote:The "Democratic" Party is the party of Iran, the Axis of Terror, radical Islamofascism and Orwellian tyranny. The Republican Party is the party of Israel, infidel emancipation and free speech. The Dems, not the GOP, are the real threat to democracy.

So you haven't actually read Orwell, got it.

Yeah that’s not the point of his books at all. 1984 was about being cautious of letting the government have complete control and to exercise free will (as well as other things), while Animal Farm was about power, greed and the Russian Revolution.

The democrats literally offer the opposite, they want to give MORE freedom to other groups, such as the LGBT+ community, or immigrants, while Trump wants to deport immigrants en masse as well as give himself, you know, the head of the government, more power (so that they will be immune to prosecution).

And also Project 2025 and all that, but I know Trumpists love to say how he doesn’t support it so I won’t bring it up, and it’s been done to death now.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=2552593 full alt account list now available!
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=2555778 policy explanations, yay
Under 18 British Male (English with Welsh heritage), Social Libertarian (Andrew Yang my beloved), Libdems liker (I have wet dreams about Ed Davey), LGBT+ supporter, Athiestic Agnostic, JFK and RFK blessed, Britannia Rules the Waves, handsome, my favourite colour is yellow, women are hot asf, serial memer, and, uhhh, up yours, children (is that a mfing Simpsons reference?!?!!?)

BREAKING NEWS:Something happened, we just don’t know what yet | People are shocked that something happened, Trump dies of laughter

User avatar
Untecna
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6544
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:54 am

Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:
Untecna wrote:Features of a story are not the overall point of a story. Not to mention that Orwell's literature is just that: pure fiction.

Then what is the point?

1984 is a fiction intended to communicate Orwell's beliefs against authoritarian systems of government, such as those present in the Soviet Union and in other dictatorial regimes. Being a work of fiction, it was exaggerated, but the point holds clear.

It should be noted that Orwell was a democratic socialist, for context.

As for Animal Farm, that was a more direct hit at the Soviets, particularly their claims of "equality" and "classlessness", while they deliberately set up a class system to favor the party.

Neither of them are "predictions", or even parallels to the Democrats; they are social commentary from the early Cold War.
Dragon with internet access. I am coming for your data. More for the hoard.
NS stats and policies are not canon. Except my scientific advancement score.
49rs | Vols
Issues Author (#1520) | Failed GA Resolution Author

User avatar
Kreigsreich of Iron
Senator
 
Posts: 3748
Founded: Jul 11, 2022
Corporate Police State

Postby Kreigsreich of Iron » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:55 am

Untecna wrote:
Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:Then what is the point?

1984 is a fiction intended to communicate Orwell's beliefs against authoritarian systems of government, such as those present in the Soviet Union and in other dictatorial regimes. Being a work of fiction, it was exaggerated, but the point holds clear.

It should be noted that Orwell was a democratic socialist, for context.

As for Animal Farm, that was a more direct hit at the Soviets, particularly their claims of "equality" and "classlessness", while they deliberately set up a class system to favor the party.

Neither of them are "predictions", or even parallels to the Democrats; they are social commentary from the early Cold War.

True, but 1984 is still chillingly accurate.

RIP Glorious Freedonia


Winter's Wake: a RP now showing in a P2M near you! - From the river to the sea, the Jewish people will be free!

User avatar
Untecna
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6544
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:56 am

Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:
Untecna wrote:1984 is a fiction intended to communicate Orwell's beliefs against authoritarian systems of government, such as those present in the Soviet Union and in other dictatorial regimes. Being a work of fiction, it was exaggerated, but the point holds clear.

It should be noted that Orwell was a democratic socialist, for context.

As for Animal Farm, that was a more direct hit at the Soviets, particularly their claims of "equality" and "classlessness", while they deliberately set up a class system to favor the party.

Neither of them are "predictions", or even parallels to the Democrats; they are social commentary from the early Cold War.

True, but 1984 is still chillingly accurate.

As much as it applies to the dictatorships of the far-right and the far-left, maybe, but not to anything else.
Dragon with internet access. I am coming for your data. More for the hoard.
NS stats and policies are not canon. Except my scientific advancement score.
49rs | Vols
Issues Author (#1520) | Failed GA Resolution Author

User avatar
Kaldon
Envoy
 
Posts: 233
Founded: Feb 25, 2024
New York Times Democracy

Postby Kaldon » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:57 am

Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:
Washington-Columbia wrote:Have you actually read any of George Orwell's books? This isn't even the point of 1984 or Animal Farm.

I mean, an obsession with power for power’s sake and control, an urge to police how people feel and think, twisting the English language beyond recognition…

The first point is any politician ever and can be applied to most individuals, including Trump (and the Democrats haven’t really gone that far in being powermad compared to the Reps), I have no knowledge of the Dems wanting such things, and the government doesn’t do that?? The government and the democrats don’t invent new words or genders??
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=2552593 full alt account list now available!
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=2555778 policy explanations, yay
Under 18 British Male (English with Welsh heritage), Social Libertarian (Andrew Yang my beloved), Libdems liker (I have wet dreams about Ed Davey), LGBT+ supporter, Athiestic Agnostic, JFK and RFK blessed, Britannia Rules the Waves, handsome, my favourite colour is yellow, women are hot asf, serial memer, and, uhhh, up yours, children (is that a mfing Simpsons reference?!?!!?)

BREAKING NEWS:Something happened, we just don’t know what yet | People are shocked that something happened, Trump dies of laughter

User avatar
Kreigsreich of Iron
Senator
 
Posts: 3748
Founded: Jul 11, 2022
Corporate Police State

Postby Kreigsreich of Iron » Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:57 am

Untecna wrote:
Kreigsreich of Iron wrote:True, but 1984 is still chillingly accurate.

As much as it applies to the dictatorships of the far-right and the far-left, maybe, but not to anything else.

Again, the conditions painted in 1984 are still disturbingly close to the mark today.

RIP Glorious Freedonia


Winter's Wake: a RP now showing in a P2M near you! - From the river to the sea, the Jewish people will be free!

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aggicificicerous, EcoWondra, Fahran, Google [Bot], HISPIDA, Holy Marsh, Hutsuls, Kostane, La Xinga, Liberal Malaysia, Lord Dominator, New haven america, Pale Dawn, Pasong Tirad, Pointy Shark, Qaumodeen, Qwertyy, Shrillland, Southland, State of Jerusalem, Stellar Colonies, The Lazarene Republic, USHALLNOTPASS, Vanahimayu

Advertisement

Remove ads