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Should Gender be looked at materially or ideally?

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Should gender be looked at from a materialist or an idealist perspective?

Materialist perspective (Male, Female, and Intersex ; Abolition of gender roles and gendered clothing)
127
68%
Idealist perspective (The possibility of infinite genders ; Retaining of gender roles and gendered clothing)
61
32%
 
Total votes : 188

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Pogravska
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Should Gender be looked at materially or ideally?

Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:28 am

Alright. This may sound tad bit controversial but I think this hasn't been quite debated here recently. My question is basically, should the view on gender be looked at from a material perspective (male, female, intersex) or the idealistic perspective (infinite genders)? Now, this can sound rather funny and it will generate some outrage or not but for the purpose, please just let this go through with civil meaning so that it doesn't get locked up after a few pages.

So, gender is defined as something assigned to us at birth. How do we get gendered though? I'll be arguing from a material perspective. Knowing thy basic biology, the reason how our gender is determined is due to certain parts of our body not affiliated universally with the other gender. For men, we are born with male genitalia and henceforth are labeled as such. Women on the other hand are born with female genitalia and are labeled as such. Now, the rare case of both male and female characteristics will lead to the "Intersex" due to the combo of the two. From a materialist perspective, Intersex is the true non-binary then.

As a gender materialist, I also agree that the traditional gender norms do not help at all since they're idealistic. Therefore, we should let men and women decide upon what they wanna wear (provided it is appropriate and not revealing), what jobs they want to work at (from each according to their skills to each according to their abilities), and what relationships they want to pursue (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or none). I may be somewhat of a gender abolitionist since I prefer to abolish mainstream gender norms (abolishing gender does not mean abolishing biological sex and many unfortunately assume that gender abolitionism is a "transhuman" philosophy and not a materialist philosophy).

Gender itself is an identity that we're given. The label itself does not stop us from doing what we want. However, the only distinction between male and female comes through biology and not by gendered clothing, roles, and etc. that the ruling class elite is pushing against us. In a society without gender mislabelling, the materialist notion dominates and we're practically free to wear any clothes or work at any jobs that aren't gatekeeping people based on their gender.
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Bestiela
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Postby Bestiela » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:32 am

I see where you're coming form, and I agree, but I agree on the idealism of pronouns. Like, we should resort to what other language does and makes you either an object or a person, but English is a language where anything goes. So for me I agree with the materialism but I ike the pronouns. We added B to debt so why can't I call a guy clown/clownself?

sorry if that was off topic.

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Pogravska
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:35 am

Bestiela wrote:I see where you're coming form, and I agree, but I agree on the idealism of pronouns. Like, we should resort to what other language does and makes you either an object or a person, but English is a language where anything goes. So for me I agree with the materialism but I ike the pronouns. We added B to debt so why can't I call a guy clown/clownself?

sorry if that was off topic.


No, no. It wasn't off topic. The idea of "neopronouns" is indeed part of the "gender idealist" notion that the only way to freedom from traditional gender norms is by making up a plethora of non-material gender identities and pronouns. While they certainly do not conform to the traditionalist notion, they are idealists because they enforce a new ideal gender. The "clown/clowned/clownself" (albeit rather unreal) therefore would enforce an ideal gender of a "clown".

But then again, neopronouns are unreal and are either right-wing talking points against trans people or are radical liberal post-modernist encouragements.
Last edited by Pogravska on Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cerespasia » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:36 am

As a person who grew up almost entirely around straight people in Indonesia, a country with a largely religious and conservative populace, I'd place my bet on the materialist point of view.
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Postby Cyptopir » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:38 am

The "idealist" perspective. Skirt go spinny :3
Also gender is not given to you but chosen by you. The majority of the world forcing a gender upon a baby of a certain sex does not make them inherently of that gender unless they decide so.
Last edited by Cyptopir on Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:38 am

Cerespasia wrote:As a person who grew up almost entirely around straight people in Indonesia, a country with a largely religious and conservative populace, I'd place my bet on the materialist point of view.


Do keep in mind that religious people may have an idealist notion of gender since religious conservative societies maintain these "traditional gender roles" which is rather idealist. Just saying because gender idealism isn't strictly tied with the radical liberals but it also has roots within religious conservative societies.
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:39 am

Cyptopir wrote:Skirt go spinny :3


I wonder what you're gonna identify as /s
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Postby Dogmeat » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 am

I don't think the "materialist" view is what you say it is.

A materialist is perfectly capable of being able to make distinctions between the physicality of chromosomes and whatnot, and the physicality of neurology. What a body looks like, and what people think about it. And both are materialist.

Materialists are perfectly capable of appreciating the infinite variety of nature. And that biology does not come with strict categories and rulebooks.

What you describe as "materialist" is just reductivism.
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:45 am

Cyptopir wrote:Also gender is not given to you but chosen by you. The majority of the world forcing a gender upon a baby of a certain sex does not make them inherently of that gender unless they decide so.


But the problem with that is that when they grow up to be a toddler, they will be aggressively pressured into gender stereotypes. This is where gender idealism really takes its course. A boy playing with girl toys is still a boy because his male body form is unchanged and he just wants to play with toys that are traditionally associated with girls. Unfortunately, this is seen less nowadays as a certain idealist and postmodernist movement has begun asserting the idea that wearing traditionally opposite-gendered clothing or playing with opposite-gender toys gives you a vibe of "gender dysphoria".

This is incredibly harmful since not everyone doing opposite-gender stuff is "gender dysphoric". If a boy plays with girly toys, he is still a boy.

EDIT - No, I'm not denying the existence of people who actually have gender dysphoria and need medical affirmative care in countries where it is either banned or it is too expensive due to capitalism.
Last edited by Pogravska on Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Valentine Z » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:45 am

I wish that outfits and dresses are more unisex. I mean, you CAN do it in a lot of places, but... would be lovely to do that more often without getting weird looks, you know? ♥
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Postby Cyptopir » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:46 am

Dogmeat wrote:What you describe as "materialist" is just reductivism.

Of course it is, when you take something as complex and multifaceted as gender and try to reduce it to two categories, of course you're gonna cut lots of things out. Especially if you seem to not have much understanding of gender in the first place like OP.
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:48 am

Cyptopir wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:What you describe as "materialist" is just reductivism.

Of course it is, when you take something as complex and multifaceted as gender and try to reduce it to two categories, of course you're gonna cut lots of things out. Especially if you seem to not have much understanding of gender in the first place like OP.


Intersex is materially the non-binary gender since you're born with both male and female biological characteristics. Those who cut this part out are often the idealistic religious or reactionary dogmatic ones.
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Postby Bestiela » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:50 am

Cyptopir wrote:The "idealist" perspective. Skirt go spinny :3
Also gender is not given to you but chosen by you. The majority of the world forcing a gender upon a baby of a certain sex does not make them inherently of that gender unless they decide so.

Sex is gender but gender isn't sex.

I find it find if you treat a baby who won't remember in 15 years like a little girly girl just from the sex, but at some age I find it weird to treat people based off their genitals, at some point gender is chosen by you. A 3 year old can't grasp gender, so you treat them off sex, or you treat them agender, because they don't have a gender yet. Personally, I prefer an agender approach bc being raised cis puts alot of pressure on your o be cis in later years and gets the parents used to a stereotypical girl/boy.

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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:51 am

Dogmeat wrote:What you describe as "materialist" is just reductivism.


I don't agree that gender is completely fluid. My view of gender is that there are men and women and a small amount of Intersex people. Between the fluidity there is the tomboy (woman who dresses up as a man and behaves like one) and the femboy (a man who dresses up as a woman and behaves like one). Gender isn't really that "complex" as the gender idealists like to believe (referring to the radical liberal postmodernism of gender). Sure there are minor things to be addressed but gender is easily understandable from the macro points too had one been learning basic biology at school.
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:53 am

Bestiela wrote:
I find it find if you treat a baby who won't remember in 15 years like a little girly girl just from the sex, but at some age I find it weird to treat people based off their genitals, at some point gender is chosen by you. A 3 year old can't grasp gender, so you treat them off sex, or you treat them agender, because they don't have a gender yet. Personally, I prefer an agender approach bc being raised cis puts alot of pressure on your o be cis in later years and gets the parents used to a stereotypical girl/boy.


"Cis" is an idealist terminology that attempts to describe the ideal "normal gender heterosexual human". As for the "agender" approach, it might be suitable for well small children. I'm not saying that we should aggresively do it because that doesn't make sense.
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Postby Cyptopir » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:59 am

Pogravska wrote:
Cyptopir wrote:Of course it is, when you take something as complex and multifaceted as gender and try to reduce it to two categories, of course you're gonna cut lots of things out. Especially if you seem to not have much understanding of gender in the first place like OP.


Intersex is materially the non-binary gender since you're born with both male and female biological characteristics. Those who cut this part out are often the idealistic religious or reactionary dogmatic ones.

Intersex is materially an inter sex, not gender. Sex =/= gender. This is gender theory 101.
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:01 am

Cyptopir wrote:Intersex is materially an inter sex, not gender. Sex =/= gender. This is gender theory 101.


And Intersex is materially non-binary. That is also gender theory 101.
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Postby Bestiela » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:03 am

Where are y'all getting gender theory 101???

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Postby Platypus Bureaucracy » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:04 am

Pogravska wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:What you describe as "materialist" is just reductivism.


I don't agree that gender is completely fluid. My view of gender is that there are men and women and a small amount of Intersex people. Between the fluidity there is the tomboy (woman who dresses up as a man and behaves like one) and the femboy (a man who dresses up as a woman and behaves like one). Gender isn't really that "complex" as the gender idealists like to believe (referring to the radical liberal postmodernism of gender). Sure there are minor things to be addressed but gender is easily understandable from the macro points too had one been learning basic biology at school.

I love that you started out pretending to have a serious, very abstract and philosophical discussion, but within a page you've used the word "femboy".
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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:04 am

Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:I love that you started out pretending to have a serious, very abstract and philosophical discussion, but within a page you've used the word "femboy".


That's an insidious thing to point out. I was using an example. How is that even....?
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Postby North Anlitelcontizard and Zontilezland » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:05 am

I mean, for me, I would look at it in a materialistic way. I didn't mean that there are more genders than male, and female but sometimes there are too much genders and some which shouldn't even exist.

I mean if you think about it, if you both remove the skin of males, females, bisexuals, pansexuals, etc then what is the difference? Sure, their muscles might vary from person to person, but we are all skin and bone at the end of the day.

Conclusion:
I don't know.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:05 am

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Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:05 am

Bestiela wrote:Where are y'all getting gender theory 101???


I get it from basic biology and ofc gender materialism.
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Postby Cyptopir » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:07 am

Bestiela wrote:Where are y'all getting gender theory 101???

At Gender University.
Pogravska wrote:I get it from basic biology and ofc gender materialism.

Gender has nothing to do with biology.
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Pogravska
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Founded: Jan 24, 2024
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Pogravska » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:07 am

North Anlitelcontizard and Zontilezland wrote:I mean, for me, I would look at it in a materialistic way. I didn't mean that there are more genders than male, and female but sometimes there are too much genders and some which shouldn't even exist.


Agreed with this part. All I've ever met are men and women. Haven't met an Intersex person. I don't see how gender count is "limitless" when materially only three possible sexes exist (mostly the man and woman and a small amount being Intersex). The whole neogender and neopronouns thing is very idealist and harming to the gender equality.
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