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Ukrainian War VII: Cry "Havoc!"

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New Visayan Islands
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Ukrainian War VII: Cry "Havoc!"

Postby New Visayan Islands » Wed May 29, 2024 8:16 am

Previously, on the Ukrainian War...

We encourage everyone to consult their preferred news sources for up-to-date news. As it stands, the situation is changing. The Russians have adjusted their goals, concentrating on the east and the south, while showering Ukraine with missile strikes and artillery barrages. The Ukrainians have counterattacked and regained territory, not to the point of evicting the Russians but enough to make them think. And all the while, Macron calls for the collective West to approve of Kyiv striking Russian sites with Western weaponry...1

1 Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war. - Marc Antony, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar.
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Floofybit
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Postby Floofybit » Wed May 29, 2024 8:19 am

Havoc!

Sorry, just following instructions
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LemueriA
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Postby LemueriA » Wed May 29, 2024 8:21 am

First!

Okay, well first on-topic post.

I'll drop my two cents on the matter. I wish the best for Ukraine and Russia. While I do not support the Russian government, I want to see the Russian people thrive. I wish that in the future Russia and Ukraine can settle out and all these nations can hopefully be more democratic. Though I have to say that the Ukrainian government is still corrupt to an extent, not like Russia but both nations' governments practice corruption. I don't want any loses to the Russian or Ukrainian people, and I wish that both governments were able to change. But in the mist of war, I am unsure if elections will take place or are taking place, Putin definitely is going to or has rigged his election but I am unsure about Ukraine.

Yeah I know that's copy-paste but just for context.

And I also don't support striking Russian sites, as they will lead to more civilian casualties, no matter how aimed you make things. And will result in more escalation of the conflict. In the times that Russia is struggling, we should opt to force Russia out of Ukraine, not miss those opportunities and let Russia regain strength.
Last edited by LemueriA on Wed May 29, 2024 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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President Grover Cleveland
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Postby President Grover Cleveland » Wed May 29, 2024 8:21 am

It's sad that the United States is literally giving all of it's tax payers money into an endless war. If i was Joe Biden right now, i would cut all the military aid and instead offer a peaceful solution with Russia. This would save millions of lives. It's a shame that the "non-interventionist" left is only adding fuel to the fire with their unilateral support to Ukraine.

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Trump Almighty
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Postby Trump Almighty » Wed May 29, 2024 8:22 am

I still do not buy the claims that Ukraine counterattacked and made any sizeable gains within the past couple of months. If they gained any land in the Kharkiv region, it was simply the Russian Bear regrouping her forces in Vovchansk

https://www.politico.eu/article/war-in- ... vovchansk/

President Grover Cleveland wrote:It's sad that the United States is literally giving all of it's tax payers money into an endless war. If i was Joe Biden right now, i would cut all the military aid and instead offer a peaceful solution with Russia. This would save millions of lives. It's a shame that the "non-interventionist" left is only adding fuel to the fire with their unilateral support to Ukraine.


I wish to follow your legacy of being a president to serve two non-consecutive terms
Last edited by Trump Almighty on Wed May 29, 2024 8:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed May 29, 2024 8:23 am

President Grover Cleveland wrote:It's sad that the United States is literally giving all of it's tax payers money into an endless war.

You're Grover Cleveland, surely you'd be complaining about tariff revenues being poured into the war instead :P

Lemueria wrote:But in the mist of war, I am unsure if elections will take place or are taking place

AFAIK, they were called off until hostilities massively died down, for obvious reasons.
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Glorious Freedonia
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Postby Glorious Freedonia » Wed May 29, 2024 8:26 am

President Grover Cleveland wrote:It's sad that the United States is literally giving all of it's tax payers money into an endless war. If i was Joe Biden right now, i would cut all the military aid and instead offer a peaceful solution with Russia. This would save millions of lives. It's a shame that the "non-interventionist" left is only adding fuel to the fire with their unilateral support to Ukraine.


If I was Biden right now, then I would ask the whole world to set up a coalition to defend Ukraine.

A good peaceful solution with Russia is for Russia to leave all of Ukraine, pay reparations to Ukraine, pay reparations for Ukraine's allies who provided military support to Ukraine, try its war criminals, and apologize to Ukraine and the world.

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President Grover Cleveland
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Postby President Grover Cleveland » Wed May 29, 2024 8:29 am

Glorious Freedonia wrote:
President Grover Cleveland wrote:It's sad that the United States is literally giving all of it's tax payers money into an endless war. If i was Joe Biden right now, i would cut all the military aid and instead offer a peaceful solution with Russia. This would save millions of lives. It's a shame that the "non-interventionist" left is only adding fuel to the fire with their unilateral support to Ukraine.


If I was Biden right now, then I would ask the whole world to set up a coalition to defend Ukraine.

A good peaceful solution with Russia is for Russia to leave all of Ukraine, pay reparations to Ukraine, pay reparations for Ukraine's allies who provided military support to Ukraine, try its war criminals, and apologize to Ukraine and the world.

Only if you want to live in the world of Fallout i guess

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LemueriA
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Postby LemueriA » Wed May 29, 2024 8:29 am

Glorious Freedonia wrote:
President Grover Cleveland wrote:It's sad that the United States is literally giving all of it's tax payers money into an endless war. If i was Joe Biden right now, i would cut all the military aid and instead offer a peaceful solution with Russia. This would save millions of lives. It's a shame that the "non-interventionist" left is only adding fuel to the fire with their unilateral support to Ukraine.


If I was Biden right now, then I would ask the whole world to set up a coalition to defend Ukraine.

A good peaceful solution with Russia is for Russia to leave all of Ukraine, pay reparations to Ukraine, pay reparations for Ukraine's allies who provided military support to Ukraine, try its war criminals, and apologize to Ukraine and the world.

The best solution is for Russia being forced to install a new government for it's expansionism in Ukraine, to ensure it doesn't expand again. For Belarus to be disintegrated with the Russian government. For Ukraine to go under a large reconstruction program. Eh, think about what we did to Germany in WWII but to a lesser extent.

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Pale Dawn
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Postby Pale Dawn » Wed May 29, 2024 8:31 am

Lemueria wrote:
Glorious Freedonia wrote:
If I was Biden right now, then I would ask the whole world to set up a coalition to defend Ukraine.

A good peaceful solution with Russia is for Russia to leave all of Ukraine, pay reparations to Ukraine, pay reparations for Ukraine's allies who provided military support to Ukraine, try its war criminals, and apologize to Ukraine and the world.

The best solution is for Russia being forced to install a new government for it's expansionism in Ukraine, to ensure it doesn't expand again. For Belarus to be disintegrated with the Russian government. For Ukraine to go under a large reconstruction program. Eh, think about what we did to Germany in WWII but to a lesser extent.



So you would have Europe/USA invade Russia to force a regime change?
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If we are doing military comparisons, I have different tech levels, so just match whatever your nation is to the appropriate level. If you are PT, imagine a set redneck guerilla warbands fighting so that their families aren't wiped out by famine and raiders. My goal in this is to be able to line myself up against any nations (along their timeline and tech level) whether they are based in 1974 or 80859. As such the numbers from PMT on are a bit soft. Those looking at our culture are stuck with MT timeline but I am building it out more. And for those who don't want to see factbooks, stats are not cannon. Policies are.

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LemueriA
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Postby LemueriA » Wed May 29, 2024 8:36 am

Pale Dawn wrote:
Lemueria wrote:The best solution is for Russia being forced to install a new government for it's expansionism in Ukraine, to ensure it doesn't expand again. For Belarus to be disintegrated with the Russian government. For Ukraine to go under a large reconstruction program. Eh, think about what we did to Germany in WWII but to a lesser extent.



So you would have Europe/USA invade Russia to force a regime change?

Honestly best way, a revolution would be too bloody, and sanctions are too blurry. Though about who would do it is a free fall.

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Azurnailia
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Postby Azurnailia » Wed May 29, 2024 8:37 am

Pale Dawn wrote:
Lemueria wrote:The best solution is for Russia being forced to install a new government for it's expansionism in Ukraine, to ensure it doesn't expand again. For Belarus to be disintegrated with the Russian government. For Ukraine to go under a large reconstruction program. Eh, think about what we did to Germany in WWII but to a lesser extent.



So you would have Europe/USA invade Russia to force a regime change?

So the thing is, if we kinda did that, we’ll probably end up like Napoleon and H!tler. The Russians will just fall back into defensive positions and wait until Winter then crush our armies with their manpower. Also if we did, it would likely start a Nuclear war, causing the possible end of the world.

The solution here is to play this like the CSA in the civil war, we are fighting a defensive war. All we need to do is to keep the Russians as far away from major areas, and let attrition do its work.
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Glorious Freedonia
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Postby Glorious Freedonia » Wed May 29, 2024 8:37 am

Lemueria wrote:
Glorious Freedonia wrote:
If I was Biden right now, then I would ask the whole world to set up a coalition to defend Ukraine.

A good peaceful solution with Russia is for Russia to leave all of Ukraine, pay reparations to Ukraine, pay reparations for Ukraine's allies who provided military support to Ukraine, try its war criminals, and apologize to Ukraine and the world.

The best solution is for Russia being forced to install a new government for it's expansionism in Ukraine, to ensure it doesn't expand again. For Belarus to be disintegrated with the Russian government. For Ukraine to go under a large reconstruction program. Eh, think about what we did to Germany in WWII but to a lesser extent.


I think we ought to let the Russians form their own government. However, there needs to be an example set here that this sort of thing has bad consequences. I think reparations are appropriate.

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Glorious Freedonia
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Postby Glorious Freedonia » Wed May 29, 2024 8:38 am

President Grover Cleveland wrote:
Glorious Freedonia wrote:
If I was Biden right now, then I would ask the whole world to set up a coalition to defend Ukraine.

A good peaceful solution with Russia is for Russia to leave all of Ukraine, pay reparations to Ukraine, pay reparations for Ukraine's allies who provided military support to Ukraine, try its war criminals, and apologize to Ukraine and the world.

Only if you want to live in the world of Fallout i guess

No. A peaceful solution does not involve nuclear war. It involves peace.

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President Grover Cleveland
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Postby President Grover Cleveland » Wed May 29, 2024 8:39 am

Azurnailia wrote:
Pale Dawn wrote:

So you would have Europe/USA invade Russia to force a regime change?

So the thing is, if we kinda did that, we’ll probably end up like Napoleon and H!tler. The Russians will just fall back into defensive positions and wait until Winter then crush our armies with their manpower. Also if we did, it would likely start a Nuclear war, causing the possible end of the world.

The solution here is to play this like the CSA in the civil war, we are fighting a defensive war. All we need to do is to keep the Russians as far away from major areas, and let attrition do its work.

For me the best thing the Western World would do is realize Ukraine is a lost cause and force Zelensky to negotiate a peace treaty with Russia.

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Azurnailia
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Postby Azurnailia » Wed May 29, 2024 8:40 am

President Grover Cleveland wrote:
Azurnailia wrote:So the thing is, if we kinda did that, we’ll probably end up like Napoleon and H!tler. The Russians will just fall back into defensive positions and wait until Winter then crush our armies with their manpower. Also if we did, it would likely start a Nuclear war, causing the possible end of the world.

The solution here is to play this like the CSA in the civil war, we are fighting a defensive war. All we need to do is to keep the Russians as far away from major areas, and let attrition do its work.

For me the best thing the Western World would do is realize Ukraine is a lost cause and force Zelensky to negotiate a peace treaty with Russia.

Same, however I thought that within the first months, Ukraine would have fallen
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President Grover Cleveland
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Postby President Grover Cleveland » Wed May 29, 2024 8:41 am

Glorious Freedonia wrote:
President Grover Cleveland wrote:Only if you want to live in the world of Fallout i guess

No. A peaceful solution does not involve nuclear war. It involves peace.

You said "set up a coalition to defend Ukraine" which is implied to be the same thing as send troops to Ukraine to fight against Russia, which is extremely dangerous since Russia is a nuclear power

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LemueriA
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Postby LemueriA » Wed May 29, 2024 8:41 am

Glorious Freedonia wrote:
Lemueria wrote:The best solution is for Russia being forced to install a new government for it's expansionism in Ukraine, to ensure it doesn't expand again. For Belarus to be disintegrated with the Russian government. For Ukraine to go under a large reconstruction program. Eh, think about what we did to Germany in WWII but to a lesser extent.


I think we ought to let the Russians form their own government. However, there needs to be an example set here that this sort of thing has bad consequences. I think reparations are appropriate.

Well we can just stack out economic, military and nuclear reparations and threats against them until the point the country on it's own dissolves and we can arrest all corrupt Russian officials. We can also send peacekeeping missions and at this point this might seem like an invasion but that's the only way to break a cycle. The Russian personality and life is so ingrained that to change it we need to introduce direct foreign involvement.
Last edited by LemueriA on Wed May 29, 2024 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Azurnailia
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Postby Azurnailia » Wed May 29, 2024 8:43 am

President Grover Cleveland wrote:
Glorious Freedonia wrote:No. A peaceful solution does not involve nuclear war. It involves peace.

You said "set up a coalition to defend Ukraine" which is implied to be the same thing as send troops to Ukraine to fight against Russia, which is extremely dangerous since Russia is a nuclear power

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Trump Almighty
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Postby Trump Almighty » Wed May 29, 2024 8:49 am

Lemueria wrote:
Pale Dawn wrote:

So you would have Europe/USA invade Russia to force a regime change?

Honestly best way, a revolution would be too bloody, and sanctions are too blurry. Though about who would do it is a free fall.


Part of why support for Ukraine is so high is that the MSM is able to trick America into thinking that it is a war of liberation. The second any American or NATO-aligned soldier invades the Russian Federation directly, it will be just like all of America’s other foreign proxy wars, except unlike Afghanistan or Iraq, which are both essentially rogue states, it is Russia, the second strongest army in the world. Is this truly what we want for our young men?
Last edited by Trump Almighty on Wed May 29, 2024 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Pale Dawn
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Postby Pale Dawn » Wed May 29, 2024 9:05 am

Lemueria wrote:
Pale Dawn wrote:

So you would have Europe/USA invade Russia to force a regime change?

Honestly best way, a revolution would be too bloody, and sanctions are too blurry. Though about who would do it is a free fall.


A revolution would be bloodier than open war between nuclear powers?
How do you come to this conclusion?
From The Ash We tower - I made this. So...here
If we are doing military comparisons, I have different tech levels, so just match whatever your nation is to the appropriate level. If you are PT, imagine a set redneck guerilla warbands fighting so that their families aren't wiped out by famine and raiders. My goal in this is to be able to line myself up against any nations (along their timeline and tech level) whether they are based in 1974 or 80859. As such the numbers from PMT on are a bit soft. Those looking at our culture are stuck with MT timeline but I am building it out more. And for those who don't want to see factbooks, stats are not cannon. Policies are.

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Eses Flumen
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Postby Eses Flumen » Wed May 29, 2024 9:06 am

Go Ukraine!

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Pale Dawn
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Postby Pale Dawn » Wed May 29, 2024 9:08 am

Azurnailia wrote:
Pale Dawn wrote:

So you would have Europe/USA invade Russia to force a regime change?

So the thing is, if we kinda did that, we’ll probably end up like Napoleon and H!tler. The Russians will just fall back into defensive positions and wait until Winter then crush our armies with their manpower. Also if we did, it would likely start a Nuclear war, causing the possible end of the world.

The solution here is to play this like the CSA in the civil war, we are fighting a defensive war. All we need to do is to keep the Russians as far away from major areas, and let attrition do its work.


Attrition is blood. The blood of the guilty and the innocent. Something that like it or not Russia has more blood to pour into than Ukraine. Not to mention the grave demographic toll this will place on both populations. It is easy to be cavalier with the blood of families you do not know.
From The Ash We tower - I made this. So...here
If we are doing military comparisons, I have different tech levels, so just match whatever your nation is to the appropriate level. If you are PT, imagine a set redneck guerilla warbands fighting so that their families aren't wiped out by famine and raiders. My goal in this is to be able to line myself up against any nations (along their timeline and tech level) whether they are based in 1974 or 80859. As such the numbers from PMT on are a bit soft. Those looking at our culture are stuck with MT timeline but I am building it out more. And for those who don't want to see factbooks, stats are not cannon. Policies are.

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LemueriA
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Postby LemueriA » Wed May 29, 2024 9:17 am

Pale Dawn wrote:
Lemueria wrote:Honestly best way, a revolution would be too bloody, and sanctions are too blurry. Though about who would do it is a free fall.


A revolution would be bloodier than open war between nuclear powers?
How do you come to this conclusion?

Unless the USA wants to destroy itself, and Russia loses every last piece of sanity it has, this won't happen.

Trump Almighty wrote:
Lemueria wrote:Honestly best way, a revolution would be too bloody, and sanctions are too blurry. Though about who would do it is a free fall.


Part of why support for Ukraine is so high is that the MSM is able to trick America into thinking that it is a war of liberation. The second any American or NATO-aligned soldier invades the Russian Federation directly, it will be just like all of America’s other foreign proxy wars, except unlike Afghanistan or Iraq, which are both essentially rogue states, it is Russia, the second strongest army in the world. Is this truly what we want for our young men?

An invasion is pretty blurry to say, would an extensive peacekeeping mission involving stuffing the Russian government with American officials and foreign oversight, be an invasion?

Russia has their nuclear arsenal as the lat thing they have, their economy has been broken, and the government has a low approval rating. Thay's the only thing left until they are totally disarmed. And they do say the last 10% is 90% of the work.

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Pale Dawn
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Postby Pale Dawn » Wed May 29, 2024 9:24 am

Lemueria wrote:
Pale Dawn wrote:
A revolution would be bloodier than open war between nuclear powers?
How do you come to this conclusion?

Unless the USA wants to destroy itself, and Russia loses every last piece of sanity it has, this won't happen.

Your stated goal is to overthrow a dictator of a nation who has been in power for decades and has firmly entrenched himself within its institutions and minds of the populace.
Your claim is to do this by military force, presumably within Russia itself. Why would Russia maintain it's (as you call it) "sanity"? Why wouldn't Putin make good on his threats when his reign ending is the stated goal and why would its people not use every tool at their disposal to defend their land?
From The Ash We tower - I made this. So...here
If we are doing military comparisons, I have different tech levels, so just match whatever your nation is to the appropriate level. If you are PT, imagine a set redneck guerilla warbands fighting so that their families aren't wiped out by famine and raiders. My goal in this is to be able to line myself up against any nations (along their timeline and tech level) whether they are based in 1974 or 80859. As such the numbers from PMT on are a bit soft. Those looking at our culture are stuck with MT timeline but I am building it out more. And for those who don't want to see factbooks, stats are not cannon. Policies are.

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