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2023 Israel–Hamas War Thread mk3

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Stratonesia
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2023 Israel–Hamas War Thread mk3

Postby Stratonesia » Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:05 am

Wikipedia wrote:An armed conflict between Israel and Hamas-led Palestinian militant groups has been taking place chiefly in and around the Gaza Strip since 7 October 2023. It began when Hamas launched a surprise attack on southern Israel from the Gaza Strip. After clearing the militants from its territory, the Israeli military embarked on an extensive aerial bombardment of the Gaza Strip followed by a large-scale ground invasion beginning on 27 October. Clashes have also occurred in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and with Hezbollah along the Israel–Lebanon border. The fifth war of the Gaza–Israel conflict since 2008, it is part of the broader Israeli–Palestinian conflict, and the most significant military escalation in the region since the Yom Kippur War 50 years earlier.

Link to previous thread: [First Thread] [Second Thread]
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Postby Post War America » Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:38 am

quote="Turenia";p="41551947"]
Post War America wrote:Undermining liberal democratic principles to defend thinly veiled allusions to the White Race are inherently more dangerous to any concept of the West worth saving than any Islamists anywhere currently. And you're openly supporting the former.

No, I'm not. I'm supporting the dispersion of an extremist demonstration.[/quote]

Bullshit. You know damn well you would be fully in support of a demonstration calling for the violent destruction of Iran or of Russia with the requisite killing of large numbers of at least mostly innocent citizens of those respective countries. Do not pretend this is any higher principle than Western chauvinism that you're upholding.

Assault rifles are not however,

Call me when cops start firing at this demonstration with assault rifles.

and militarized training is a well documented aspect of American policing.

Right. But crowd control equipment like I've listed is not "militarized".


When Russia uses tear gas it gets reported as a Chemical Weapon attack, and a war crime, even when used against WMD defense equipped and trained soldiers. When American police use those same weapons against unarmed students its "not militarized". You're pedantry is to put it into your own words, irrelevant tripe.

Almost as well documented as white supremacy actually.

Is this relevant? No? Ok.


Police wouldn't be brutalizing Pro-Israel protestors carrying signs about leveling Gaza, or other types of white Fascist protest. Usually the protect the Fascists actually. That's quite relevant when you go on and on about "protecting Western democracy from Fascists and Islamists".

An "anti-Semetic" movement backed and indeed partially organized by large numbers of Jews, that, for the most part just wants to prevent an actual genocide that is actually happening from a state that claims to be pro-Jewish but run by a Holocaust revisionist with a publicly documented history of employing dubious claims of Anti-Semetism as a smokescreen to shield its atrocious actions.

Irrelevant tripe combined with false accusations of genocide. Yawn.
[/quote]

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Sarduri
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Postby Sarduri » Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:45 am

Big Eyed Animation wrote:Sarduri

1. As to freedom of speech, prosecutable doesn't equate to whether a law has been broken or not. This isn't the first time universities have turned a blind eye to anti semitism and more by denying "From the river to the sea" is anti semitic or that it's incitement of violence. You also conveniently ignore my links where the pro Palestine crowd have clearly supported and even encouraged Hamas to kill more people, whether they be Israeli or even American citizens.


it's not a matter of denial. it quite simply does not meet the legal standard required for 'incitement to violence', and therefore public universities cannot prosecute people saying it. and private universities have found themselves in a sticky situation where absolutist free speech policy meant to protect the likes of Charles Murray or whoever else also neatly protect the speech of pink haired snowflakes.

Big Eyed Animation wrote:2. I don't care which personnel were in the government. That wasn't even the debate. The debate was whether government inaction would help a protest peter out faster and I gave multiple examples like the CHOP and Tibet where government inaction didn't diminish the protests in the least. I would like to think that most folks who are reading this thread understand that a protest that has a demand, is not going away without getting that demand or at the very least, some kind of compromise. Any kind of inaction on the part of the entity being protested against, is just seen as stalling by said entity. This hasn't led to the protestors leaving or giving up but doubling down.


it does matter because you're assuming the Chinese government is some sort of monolith that never changes and automatically reacts to protest with extreme violence. it very notably does not, as I've pointed out to you. more relevantly to the conversation, in the wake of Tiananmen it has learned about what kinds of protest it can suppress violently and what ones it can allow to peter out. compare and contrast between the Chinese government's handling of university students protesting (handled by closing the universities early for winter break) versus migrant workers (with riot police).

Big Eyed Animation wrote:3. Even if you disagree about the incitement of violence, which I said has happened, rules HAVE been broken. I am surprised you even bothered to admit that they were doing anything wrong like trespassing.


breaking the law is not the same thing as doing something wrong. protests often involve breaking the law. that's the whole point behind civil disobedience. it's the grand tradition of every esteemed civil rights leader from Gandhi to MLK Jr.

it's a funny thing about modern politics these days - we're in the remarkable position where it's de rigeur to support every past civil rights or protest movement in history, except any of the ones that happen to be going on right this moment. actually existing protest movements are a little harder to stomach rather than something that's been nicely sanitized by history.
Last edited by Sarduri on Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Elwher » Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:28 am

Sarduri wrote:
Big Eyed Animation wrote:Sarduri

1. As to freedom of speech, prosecutable doesn't equate to whether a law has been broken or not. This isn't the first time universities have turned a blind eye to anti semitism and more by denying "From the river to the sea" is anti semitic or that it's incitement of violence. You also conveniently ignore my links where the pro Palestine crowd have clearly supported and even encouraged Hamas to kill more people, whether they be Israeli or even American citizens.


it's not a matter of denial. it quite simply does not meet the legal standard required for 'incitement to violence', and therefore public universities cannot prosecute people saying it. and private universities have found themselves in a sticky situation where absolutist free speech policy meant to protect the likes of Charles Murray or whoever else also neatly protect the speech of pink haired snowflakes.

Big Eyed Animation wrote:2. I don't care which personnel were in the government. That wasn't even the debate. The debate was whether government inaction would help a protest peter out faster and I gave multiple examples like the CHOP and Tibet where government inaction didn't diminish the protests in the least. I would like to think that most folks who are reading this thread understand that a protest that has a demand, is not going away without getting that demand or at the very least, some kind of compromise. Any kind of inaction on the part of the entity being protested against, is just seen as stalling by said entity. This hasn't led to the protestors leaving or giving up but doubling down.


it does matter because you're assuming the Chinese government is some sort of monolith that never changes and automatically reacts to protest with extreme violence. it very notably does not, as I've pointed out to you. more relevantly to the conversation, in the wake of Tiananmen it has learned about what kinds of protest it can suppress violently and what ones it can allow to peter out. compare and contrast between the Chinese government's handling of university students protesting (handled by closing the universities early for winter break) versus migrant workers (with riot police).

Big Eyed Animation wrote:3. Even if you disagree about the incitement of violence, which I said has happened, rules HAVE been broken. I am surprised you even bothered to admit that they were doing anything wrong like trespassing.


breaking the law is not the same thing as doing something wrong. protests often involve breaking the law. that's the whole point behind civil disobedience. it's the grand tradition of every esteemed civil rights leader from Gandhi to MLK Jr.

it's a funny thing about modern politics these days - we're in the remarkable position where it's de rigeur to support every past civil rights or protest movement in history, except any of the ones that happen to be going on right this moment. actually existing protest movements are a little harder to stomach rather than something that's been nicely sanitized by history.



Part of Civil disobedience is the willingness, in fact the desire, to be arrested so that one can make one's point in court. All too many of today's practitioners of the art seem to have forgotten about that part.
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Postby Repreteop » Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:45 am

What I've seen is I have a newfound disrespect for most people who randomly say "Free Palestine" when I mention I'm Jewish.
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Postby Ohnoh » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:23 am

Repreteop wrote:What I've seen is I have a newfound disrespect for most people who randomly say "Free Palestine" when I mention I'm Jewish.

Yes exactly. Its fine tp say anti-zionism is not anti-semitism but if your first response to a Jewish American is to say "Free Palestine" you probably ought to check yourself.
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Postby Urine Town » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:34 am

Repreteop wrote:What I've seen is I have a newfound disrespect for most people who randomly say "Free Palestine" when I mention I'm Jewish.


Yeahhh… that’s anti-semitism, you deserve better, and you do not deserve to experience that. There is a vocal minority of those in the Free Palestine movement who are just finding a convenient outlet to spew their anti-Semitic vitriol.
Last edited by Urine Town on Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Urine Town » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:36 am

Ohnoh wrote:
Repreteop wrote:What I've seen is I have a newfound disrespect for most people who randomly say "Free Palestine" when I mention I'm Jewish.

Yes exactly. Its fine tp say anti-zionism is not anti-semitism but if your first response to a Jewish American is to say "Free Palestine" you probably ought to check yourself.


So true. I am firmly against America’s support for Israel and believe Netanyahu is a war criminal, but anyone who targets a religion or ethnic group specifically, is deplorable
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Postby Big Eyed Animation » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:46 am

Sarduri

1. FIRE free speech website indicates that while the phrase ALONE may not qualify incitement to violence (I disagree but I.am not a legal scholar or a judge), chanting the phrase while assaulting other students or otherwise physically stopping students from attending class qualifies. Why do you think I mentioned those assaults in almost every one of my posts including providing links to actual instances of it happening?

2. Both instances that you cited involves the government sending out law enforcement/security forces, AKA, using government authority, to deal with protests (might as well include the government arbitrarily closing schools early as well). This is by definition NOT government inaction.

3. So you finally admit it after all those past pages of what I felt was you dodging. Civil disobedience.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. In these scenarios, especially if instances of such law breaking happens on private property, it is rightfully the property owner who should have final say on how to deal with such situations. In the recent cases of dispersal, the property owner, decided they wanted the protestors to go and the protestors were subsequently removed from the premises.

What is more glaring however is that a lot of these protests didn't involve just mere trespassing but actually assault/violence. That is my main gripe. I don't believe that violence should ever be tolerated and every single university/school has made it abundantly clear that they do not condone violence. Even if we were to operate on the agent provocateur scenario,, the pro Palestine group should at bare minimum, police their own people and kick those violent assholes out.
Last edited by Big Eyed Animation on Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:22 am, edited 9 times in total.

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Postby Sarduri » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:47 am

Elwher wrote:
Sarduri wrote:Part of Civil disobedience is the willingness, in fact the desire, to be arrested so that one can make one's point in court. All too many of today's practitioners of the art seem to have forgotten about that part.

Part of Civil disobedience is the willingness, in fact the desire, to be arrested so that one can make one's point in court. All too many of today's practitioners of the art seem to have forgotten about that part


a contentious opinion, and one that is not shared universally by practitioners of civil disobedience. See: draft dodging during the Vietnam War by conscientious objectors.
Last edited by Sarduri on Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Repreteop » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:52 am

Urine Town wrote:
Repreteop wrote:What I've seen is I have a newfound disrespect for most people who randomly say "Free Palestine" when I mention I'm Jewish.


Yeahhh… that’s anti-semitism, you deserve better, and you do not deserve to experience that. There is a vocal minority of those in the Free Palestine movement who are just finding a convenient outlet to spew their anti-Semitic vitriol.


No. That is alot of them. Unknowing and unwise children who never even thought about Palestine until October 7th. Those people barring Jews from going to college are many.
Urine Town wrote:
Ohnoh wrote:Yes exactly. Its fine tp say anti-zionism is not anti-semitism but if your first response to a Jewish American is to say "Free Palestine" you probably ought to check yourself.


So true. I am firmly against America’s support for Israel and believe Netanyahu is a war criminal, but anyone who targets a religion or ethnic group specifically, is deplorable


I support Israel. Netanyahu however is actually doing what he can to stay in office because he will be serving time for his corruption once he is out.

Ohnoh wrote:
Repreteop wrote:What I've seen is I have a newfound disrespect for most people who randomly say "Free Palestine" when I mention I'm Jewish.

Yes exactly. Its fine tp say anti-zionism is not anti-semitism but if your first response to a Jewish American is to say "Free Palestine" you probably ought to check yourself.


All anti-semites are anti-zionists, but not all anti-zionists are anti-semites, just people who think Jews shouldn't have a country, which sounds a awful alike to most anti-semites.
drifting on a memory, ain't no place i'd rather be than with you, yeah, loving you... well well well
day will make a way for night, all we need is a candlelights and a song, yeah, soft and long, well
glad to be, here alone with the love unlike no other, sad to see, a new horizon slowly coming into view, yeah
i want to be living for the love of you, oh yes i am, all that i'm giving is for the love of you, all right now
love me as a ray of sun, that touches me when the morning comes, feels good to me, my love and me
well, smoother than a channel breeze, flowing through my mind with ease, soft as can be, well when you're loving me

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Postby Turenia » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:14 am

Post War America wrote:Bullshit. You know damn well you would be fully in support of a demonstration calling for the violent destruction of Iran or of Russia with the requisite killing of large numbers of at least mostly innocent citizens of those respective countries. Do not pretend this is any higher principle than Western chauvinism that you're upholding.

No, I wouldn't at all, because a lot of the Russian people and most of the Iranian people are our allies.

When Russia uses tear gas it gets reported as a Chemical Weapon attack, and a war crime, even when used against WMD defense equipped and trained soldiers. When American police use those same weapons against unarmed students its "not militarized". You're pedantry is to put it into your own words, irrelevant tripe.

How hard is it to understand? Tear gas is a crowd control weapon when used by Police, and this is the case no matter which police force uses it. It becomes militarized when it's used in a military situation. Of course, many people such as yourself, during 2020 were decrying the use of tear gas and the like as "A WAR CRIME!!!" even though it wasn't, because it wasn't used as a weapon of war.

Police wouldn't be brutalizing Pro-Israel protestors carrying signs about leveling Gaza, or other types of white Fascist protest. Usually the protect the Fascists actually. That's quite relevant when you go on and on about "protecting Western democracy from Fascists and Islamists".

If the protestors were occupying an area and had been asked to leave by that areas owner, they would.

False accusations that are plausibly supported by the relevant organization with the strictest legal definition of genocide in common use.

Implausibly supported by a joke organization who work with an outfit that assists Hamas. Yeah, ok.
Last edited by Turenia on Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Big Eyed Animation » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:33 am

Elwher

The civil rights movement is a good example of when breaking the law needs to be scrutinized more closely.

I would argue that MLK, in his steadfast adherence to the principle of non violence, allowed the use of civil disobedience to be effective (as the laws were unfair, the victims American citizens, the victims were clearly non violent, and the perpetrators were clearly violent).

A better example of how effective non violence is when televisions screens broadcasted around the world peaceful protestors (protestors who weren't calling names, weren't screaming obscenities, weren't calling for two wrongs make a right, weren't actively attacking people, etc, etc), had fire hoses and dogs set upon them.Theae protestors were led by a man who thoroughly repudiated the calls for.violence coming from the likes of Malcom X and Huey P. Newton. MLK also repudiated the idea of black power and supremacy, another ideology that was growing during the civil rights movement

There was simply zero chance the racists could have turned the tables on the civil rights activists.
Last edited by Big Eyed Animation on Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sarduri » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:35 am

Big Eyed Animation wrote:Sarduri

1. FIRE free speech website indicates that while the phrase ALONE may not qualify incitement to violence (I disagree but I.am not a legal scholar or a judge), chanting the phrase while assaulting other students or otherwise physically stopping students from attending class qualifies. Why do you think I mentioned those assaults in almost every one of my posts including providing links to actual instances of it happening?


so shouting it is an aggravation to assault, not a crime. and not sufficient reason to abrogate the free speech rights of the people involved outside of those in the commission of assault.

Big Eyed Animation wrote:2. Both instances that you cited involves the government sending out law enforcement/security forces, AKA, using government authority, to deal with protests (might as well include the government arbitrarily closing schools early as well). This is by definition NOT government inaction.


we're not talking about government inaction. we're talking about ways to manage a protest movement that do not involve mass arrests.

Big Eyed Animation wrote:3. So you finally admit it after all those past pages of what I felt was you dodging. Civil disobedience.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. In these scenarios, especially if instances of such law breaking happens on private property, it is rightfully the property owner who should have final say on how to deal with such situations. In the recent cases of dispersal, the property owner, decided they wanted the protestors to go and the protestors were subsequently removed from premises.

What is more glaring however is that a lot of these protests didn't involve just mere trespassing but actually assault/violence. That is my main gripe. I don't believe that violence should ever be tolerated and every single university/school has made it abundantly clear that they do not condone violence. Even if we were to operate on the agent provocateur scenario,, the pro Palestine group should at bare minimum, police their own people and kick those violent assholes out.


civil disobedience to tresspass laws, sure. I have bad news for you about some vaunted civil rights-era protests about tresspassing laws, in which case.

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Postby Stellar Colonies » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:41 am

Netanyahu: Israel will invade Rafah — regardless of hostage deal (Politico)
Israel would enter the Palestinian city “with or without a deal.”
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced Tuesday that Israel will invade Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip, even if Hamas agrees to the latest Israeli proposal for a cease-fire.

“The idea that we will halt the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question,” Netanyahu said, at a meeting with representatives of families of people taken hostage by the Palestinian militant group.

“We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate the Hamas battalions there — with or without a deal, in order to achieve the total victory,” he added.

The families urged Netanyahu to “withstand the international pressure” to halt the war in Gaza, the statement published by the Prime Minister’s Office said. U.S. President Joe Biden has said an invasion of Rafah would be a “red line,” though Netanyahu vowed to defy that.

Israel has carried out regular airstrikes on the city since the start of the war and has threatened to send in troops, calling Rafah the last Hamas stronghold. Overnight Monday, Israeli airstrikes killed at least 22 people, including [eleven men], six women, and five children, Palestinian health officials said.

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said Monday during an election debate co-hosted by POLITICO that it would be “completely unacceptable” for Israel to attack the Palestinian city but declined to call it a “red line” that would result in EU sanctions against Israel.
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Postby Ohnoh » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:41 am

Repreteop wrote:
Urine Town wrote:
Yeahhh… that’s anti-semitism, you deserve better, and you do not deserve to experience that. There is a vocal minority of those in the Free Palestine movement who are just finding a convenient outlet to spew their anti-Semitic vitriol.


No. That is alot of them. Unknowing and unwise children who never even thought about Palestine until October 7th. Those people barring Jews from going to college are many.
Urine Town wrote:
So true. I am firmly against America’s support for Israel and believe Netanyahu is a war criminal, but anyone who targets a religion or ethnic group specifically, is deplorable


I support Israel. Netanyahu however is actually doing what he can to stay in office because he will be serving time for his corruption once he is out.

Ohnoh wrote:Yes exactly. Its fine tp say anti-zionism is not anti-semitism but if your first response to a Jewish American is to say "Free Palestine" you probably ought to check yourself.


All anti-semites are anti-zionists, but not all anti-zionists are anti-semites, just people who think Jews shouldn't have a country, which sounds a awful alike to most anti-semites.

Yeah I think the way people use the term anti-zionist now isn't quite accurate. I don't like Netanyahu either but I still support Israel's existence. I also find it very bizarre how people are all for self-determination but then will turn around and say Israeli shouldn't exist. Anyone familiar with history can see there's a need for a Jewish homeland.
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Postby Repreteop » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:47 am

Ohnoh wrote:
Repreteop wrote:
No. That is alot of them. Unknowing and unwise children who never even thought about Palestine until October 7th. Those people barring Jews from going to college are many.

I support Israel. Netanyahu however is actually doing what he can to stay in office because he will be serving time for his corruption once he is out.



All anti-semites are anti-zionists, but not all anti-zionists are anti-semites, just people who think Jews shouldn't have a country, which sounds a awful alike to most anti-semites.

Yeah I think the way people use the term anti-zionist now isn't quite accurate. I don't like Netanyahu either but I still support Israel's existence. I also find it very bizarre how people are all for self-determination but then will turn around and say Israeli shouldn't exist. Anyone familiar with history can see there's a need for a Jewish homeland.


There is not much persecution towards Jews in Israel, seems like most persecution has happened when Jews were denied a homeland. Israel is a home for Jews, where it should be safe. Unfortunately thats not easy at this moment.
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day will make a way for night, all we need is a candlelights and a song, yeah, soft and long, well
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i want to be living for the love of you, oh yes i am, all that i'm giving is for the love of you, all right now
love me as a ray of sun, that touches me when the morning comes, feels good to me, my love and me
well, smoother than a channel breeze, flowing through my mind with ease, soft as can be, well when you're loving me

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Postby Cerula » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:49 am

Ohnoh wrote:
Repreteop wrote:
No. That is alot of them. Unknowing and unwise children who never even thought about Palestine until October 7th. Those people barring Jews from going to college are many.

I support Israel. Netanyahu however is actually doing what he can to stay in office because he will be serving time for his corruption once he is out.



All anti-semites are anti-zionists, but not all anti-zionists are anti-semites, just people who think Jews shouldn't have a country, which sounds a awful alike to most anti-semites.

Yeah I think the way people use the term anti-zionist now isn't quite accurate. I don't like Netanyahu either but I still support Israel's existence. I also find it very bizarre how people are all for self-determination but then will turn around and say Israeli shouldn't exist. Anyone familiar with history can see there's a need for a Jewish homeland.

the jewish homeland is the JEWISH AUTONOMOUS OBLAST

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Postby Big Eyed Animation » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:50 am

Sarduri

1. I am clearly focusing on the protests where assaults were happening and no, screaming is not assault. Using physical force to detain or otherwise stop students from attending class or guest speakers IS assault (I don't think it's a coincidence that screams of "From the river to the sea", almost always happens before or after an instance of assault happens). Stopping people from going to classes by physically impeding access may not qualify as assault but is clearly a civil rights violation. Why do you keep dodging this?

2. In many of the protests, things were not similar to the civil rights folks. You had clear instances of pro Palestinian folks clearly assaulting other students. There were clear examples of civil rights violations where protesters were denying students access to classes or lectures via physically impeding access. While I clarified my stance on non violent situations, the situations clearly involving violence warranted police actions.

3. I actually responded to Elhwers post in regards to the vaunted civil rights leaders/movement.
Last edited by Big Eyed Animation on Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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HISPIDA
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Anarchy

Postby HISPIDA » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:51 am

Repreteop wrote:
Ohnoh wrote:Yeah I think the way people use the term anti-zionist now isn't quite accurate. I don't like Netanyahu either but I still support Israel's existence. I also find it very bizarre how people are all for self-determination but then will turn around and say Israeli shouldn't exist. Anyone familiar with history can see there's a need for a Jewish homeland.


There is not much persecution towards Jews in Israel, seems like most persecution has happened when Jews were denied a homeland. Israel is a home for Jews, where it should be safe. Unfortunately thats not easy at this moment.

unless you're ethiopian.
Last edited by HISPIDA on Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:53 am

Big Eyed Animation wrote:Elwher

The civil rights movement is a good example of when breaking the law needs to be scrutinized more closely.

I would argue that MLK, in his steadfast adherence to the principle of non violence, allowed the use of civil disobedience to be effective (as the laws were unfair, the victims American citizens, the victims were clearly non violent, and the perpetrators were clearly violent).

A better example of how effective non violence is when televisions screens broadcasted around the world peaceful protestors (protestors who weren't calling names, weren't screaming obscenities, weren't calling for two wrongs make a right, weren't actively attacking people, etc, etc), had fire hoses and dogs set upon them.Theae protestors were led by a man who thoroughly repudiated the calls for.violence coming from the likes of Malcom X and Huey P. Newton. MLK also repudiated the idea of black power and supremacy, another ideology that was growing during the civil rights movement

King was widely blamed for inciting riots during the civil rights movement.
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Stellar Colonies
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:56 am

Stellar Colonies wrote:
College protests in California: See what’s happening at each campus (San Francisco Chronicle)
Pro-Palestinian demonstrations have spread across college campuses in California and throughout the country, with students calling for a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war and demanding that school administrators stop all investments tied to Israel.

Students at more than a dozen universities in California have rallied and set up encampments, holding study groups, prayers, art workshops and more. In some cases, demonstrations — and the response to them — have disrupted academics, campus life and commencement plans.

On Monday, San Francisco State University became the latest Bay Area college to join the nationwide movement — one that has resulted in hundreds of student arrests as universities struggle to balance freedom of speech rights and campus safety. The protests have largely been peaceful, but some Jewish students have reported feeling unsafe amid claims of increasing antisemitism.

Protests at universities had been happening since Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7, killing 1,200 people and taking 250 hostages, 100 of whom are still being held. In the ensuing war, Israel has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians in Gaza, the majority of them women and children, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

The current movement was sparked by an April 17 protest at Columbia University in New York, during which administrators called in the city’s Police Department to clear student encampments. More than 100 students were arrested, prompting faculty members to rally in support of the demonstrators and condemn the arrests. In solidarity, students at campuses across the country began following suit.

Here are the California colleges where major pro-Palestinian demonstrations and protests are taking place.

BAY AREA

San Francisco State University

Hundreds of SFSU students rallied at Malcolm X Plaza on Monday afternoon, and demonstrators set up a dozen tents outside the student union. Students are demanding that SFSU and the California State University system divest from Israel and “stop investing our tuition in genocide,” organizers said. Administrators said the university will respect the rights of students to peacefully protest while working to ensure the safety of protesters and the campus community.

UC Berkeley

On April 22, students established an encampment with rows of tents on the steps of the administrative building Sproul Hall and pledged to stay outside until the university divests from companies doing business in Israel and creates a Palestinian studies program. No arrests or altercations related to the protest have been reported, according to the student newspaper the Daily Californian. The Jewish Community Relations Council Bay Area on X called the protesters’ words “abhorrent” but said they have a right to free speech and assembly, and that administrators were “committed to ensuring Jewish safety and participation in campus life.”

Stanford University

Students erected a “People’s University for Palestine” encampment at White Memorial Plaza on Thursday evening. On Friday, administrators threatened to discipline or arrest protesters who camp overnight, saying free expression is allowed at White Plaza but that overnight camping isn’t. No arrests have been reported.

Sonoma State University

The “SSU Gaza Solidarity Encampment” on Person Lawn was set up at the Rohnert Park campus on Friday evening. In a campus-wide message to the campus community Sunday, Sonoma State President Mike Lee said the protest has been peaceful. The university’s Police Department has been monitoring the protest and “have not found it necessary to take any action at this time,” Lee said.

NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Cal Poly Humboldt

Police arrested more than 20 people, including students, faculty and one journalist, early Tuesday morning on Cal Poly Humboldt’s campus after issuing warnings to disperse for several hours. The arrests and further attempts by police to clear the encampment of protesters calling for a cease-fire in Gaza and an end to U.S. military support for Israel reflected simmering tensions on the Northern California campus. after days of demonstrations. Students occupied two buildings over the weekend.

The university announced a hard closure of the campus, prohibiting people from being on or entering the campus without permission. All instruction and work has shifted to remote during the closure, which will remain in effect through the end of the semester on May 10.

Sacramento State University

The Sacramento State chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine launched an encampment at the Library Quad on Monday. A university spokesperson told the State Hornet, the student newspaper, that protesters will need to disperse by 11:59 p.m. Wednesday.

SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA

University of Southern California

The Los Angeles Police Department arrested 93 people at the University of Southern California on April 24 amid protests against the Israel-Hamas war and the university’s cancellation of the graduation speech of a pro-Palestinian valedictorian. The next day, the university announced it was canceling its main commencement ceremony on May 10. In response, two prominent speakers scheduled to appear at satellite graduation ceremonies dropped out and are calling on others to join them in a boycott, the Los Angeles Times reported.

UCLA

Students set up a pro-Palestinian encampment in front of Royce Hall on Thursday morning. Counterprotesters, waving Israeli flags, began gathering that afternoon and continued into the weekend, according to the Daily Bruin. The dueling protesters clashed on Sunday, resulting in a mostly peaceful shouting match. No arrests were made.

UC Irvine

The UCI Gaza Solidarity Encampment was launched on Monday. Students organized the first day with a rally, teach-ins, art activities and games, meals and a prayer break.

UC Santa Barbara

Students have organized protests around campus, some setting up tents and hosting workshops at the university’s student resource building on Monday, according to News Channel 3-12.

UC Riverside

Students launched an encampment at the Belltower Lawn on Monday morning, organizers announced in an Instagram post.

Occidental College

An encampment was set up Monday morning on the campus Quad, according to an Instagram post by the group Students for Justice in Palestine at Occidental College.

Claremont Colleges

Demonstrations at three Claremont College campuses — Harvey Mudd, Pitzer and Pomona — halted alumni festivities over the weekend, according to the Claremont Courier. A pro-Palestinian encampment was set on the Pitzer College mounts, the outlet reported.
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Ohnoh
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Founded: Apr 27, 2024
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ohnoh » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:57 am

Cerula wrote:
Ohnoh wrote:Yeah I think the way people use the term anti-zionist now isn't quite accurate. I don't like Netanyahu either but I still support Israel's existence. I also find it very bizarre how people are all for self-determination but then will turn around and say Israeli shouldn't exist. Anyone familiar with history can see there's a need for a Jewish homeland.

the jewish homeland is the JEWISH AUTONOMOUS OBLAST

Looks close enough go go to Japan for lunch, not bad
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Big Eyed Animation
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Founded: Antiquity
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Big Eyed Animation » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:58 am

Ifreann wrote:
Big Eyed Animation wrote:Elwher

The civil rights movement is a good example of when breaking the law needs to be scrutinized more closely.

I would argue that MLK, in his steadfast adherence to the principle of non violence, allowed the use of civil disobedience to be effective (as the laws were unfair, the victims American citizens, the victims were clearly non violent, and the perpetrators were clearly violent).

A better example of how effective non violence is when televisions screens broadcasted around the world peaceful protestors (protestors who weren't calling names, weren't screaming obscenities, weren't calling for two wrongs make a right, weren't actively attacking people, etc, etc), had fire hoses and dogs set upon them.Theae protestors were led by a man who thoroughly repudiated the calls for.violence coming from the likes of Malcom X and Huey P. Newton. MLK also repudiated the idea of black power and supremacy, another ideology that was growing during the civil rights movement

King was widely blamed for inciting riots during the civil rights movement.


Sure and that was often by white supremacists politicians, often in the south. It sure was a good thing that a primary supporter of the civil rights many victories consisted of the supreme Court ruling in favor of King.

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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:59 am

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Netanyahu: Israel will invade Rafah — regardless of hostage deal (Politico)
Israel would enter the Palestinian city “with or without a deal.”

So that's a no from Israel to any ceasefire deal.
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