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Hospital prices for the same emergency care vary up to 16X

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Neu California
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Hospital prices for the same emergency care vary up to 16X

Postby Neu California » Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:13 pm

Ars Technica wrote:Since 2021, federal law has required hospitals to publicly post their prices, allowing Americans to easily anticipate costs and shop around for affordable care—as they would for any other marketed service or product. But hospitals have mostly failed miserably at complying with the law.

A 2023 KFF analysis on compliance found that the pricing information hospitals provided is "messy, inconsistent, and confusing, making it challenging, if not impossible, for patients or researchers to use them for their intended purpose." A February 2024 report from the nonprofit organization Patient Rights Advocate found that only 35 percent of 2,000 US hospitals surveyed were in full compliance with the 2021 rule.

But even if hospitals dramatically improved their price transparency, it likely wouldn't help when patients need emergency trauma care. After an unexpected, major injury, people are sent to the closest hospital and aren't likely to be shopping around for the best price from the back of an ambulance. If they did, though, they might also need to be treated for shock.

According to a study published Wednesday in JAMA Surgery, hospitals around the country charge wildly different prices for trauma care. Prices for the same care can be up to 16-fold different between hospitals, and cash prices are sometimes significantly cheaper than the negotiated prices that insurance companies pay.

"The findings illustrate substantial, and often irrational, variations" in trauma pricing, according to the study authors—a group of researchers at Johns Hopkins and the University of California, San Francisco. They suggest that "price variations cannot be explained by trauma severity alone."

For the study, they obtained data on "trauma activation fees" (TAFs) from hospitals across the US. TAFS were created in 2002 to be standardized billing codes that would help recuperate readiness costs for trauma care. Those overhead costs are what hospitals pay to maintain readiness to provide emergency trauma care around the clock, including having operating rooms constantly ready, as well as sufficient staffing, equipment, and supplies, like blood products. TAFS are billed with four codes corresponding to trauma response levels (I through IV), which are based on standardized criterion of injury severity. These fees are in addition to billing for a patient's actual medical care.

Wide variation
The researchers pulled TAF data from a platform that aggregates hospital-disclosed pricing data called Torquise Health. From there, they obtained 3,093 unique TAF observations across 761 unique hospitals in 49 states. They broke out TAF fees by different types of trauma response levels as well as types of prices: list prices, cash prices often paid by the uninsured, and negotiated prices paid to insurers.

The prices varied dramatically for each trauma level and pricing type. For instance, for the most severe trauma response level (level I), the median TAF list price was $6,607, while the median negotiated price was $3,431, and the median cash price was $2,663. For the list prices, the span between the 10th percentile prices and the 90th percentile prices went from a low of $1,650 up to 11 times more than that: $18,500. Looking across the percentiles for the negotiated prices, costs ranged from $900 to 11,661, 13 times more. And the cash prices ranged from $660 to $8,190, 12 times more.

The largest spread was seen in the cash prices for trauma response level II TAFs. There, the median cash price was $2,630, but the span between the 10th and 90th percentiles was $768 to $12,140, which is 16 times more.

In all the data, cash prices were often lower than the negotiated prices. This is good for uninsured patients who may be offered cash prices, but it's not great for the insured. "One could argue that insured patients who are already paying insurance premiums should not pay more than cash prices," the authors wrote.

Overall, the pricing and lack of transparency is a problem that requires intervention, the authors conclude. "The unexpected and pressing nature of trauma means patients are sent to the closest appropriate hospital and unable to compare prices as they do with nonemergency and shoppable medical services," the authors wrote. Moreover, the people who will suffer the most from these wide-swinging prices are the uninsured and most financially vulnerable patients, they add.


Capitalism, baby!

Obviously, this is unacceptable, but what should be done about it? Should we just cap trauma pricing? have the government cover it? Or at least ban the practice of shooting prices up for trauma care?

I'm big on the idea of just creating a cost cap, as a step towards universal healthcare, especially considering this isn't the only major problem with healthcare found lately that can be attributed to for-profit healthcare (Rural hospitals are closing at an alarming rate because they can't make enough money to stay open).
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Haganham
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Postby Haganham » Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:51 pm

Honestly I think the most likely solution to the American healthcare system would be for some activist org to start up an insurance equivalent of a credit union, but for insurance. A risk union, if you will
The fundamental problem with American healthcare system is that everything is done through insurance, because insurance is an industry that makes money by not doing business with it's customers. So they have an incentive to make dealing with them as difficult as possible, and A huge part of why medical billing is so byzantine is so that providers can actually recoup the costs from insurance companies, not just of the care itself, but of fighting with them.

A risk union has a fiduciary duty to it's policyholders, not shareholders, and so doesn't have a profit motive to deny claims.
Imagine reading a signature, but over the course of it the quality seems to deteriorate and it gets wose an wose, where the swenetence stwucture and gwammer rewerts to a pwoint of uttew non swence, an u jus dont wanna wead it anymwore (o´ω`o) awd twa wol owdewl iws jus awfwul (´・ω・`);. bwt tw sinawtur iwswnwt obwer nyet, it gwos own an own an own an own. uwu wanyaa stwop weadwing bwut uwu cwant stop wewding, uwu stwartd thwis awnd ur gwoing two fwinibsh it nowo mwattew wat! uwu hab mwoxie kwiddowo, bwut uwu wibl gwib ub sowon. i cwan wite wike dis fwor owors, swo dwont cwalengbe mii..

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Postby Page » Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:57 pm

I saw this in real life. A year after I left America, I came back there to visit with travel insurance. I ended up in the ER, but because of the circumstances, I didn't have the insurance info with me. I got it to them pretty soon after, but they had already lazily marked me as uninsured and billed me $7000 for an MRI and a few oxycodones. They passed it on to a collections agency pretty quickly too. Getting my travel insurance and the collections and the hospital to communicate was a nightmare, they expected me to do everything, pass it back and forth like a neutral friend of two kids pissed off at each other. I eventually told them "I don't live in America anymore and let's be honest, you aren't going to sue me across international borders to get this debt, so you either talk to the fucking insurance company yourselves and get your money, or I'm just going to ignore this for the rest of my life with no repercussions." Wouldn't you know it, they finally talked to each other.

But the point of the story is that the ultimate settlement on that initially $7000 bill turned out to be $1100. Which is STILL despicable, but as you can see, they pulled that 7K out of their asses.

Guess what the travel insurance cost me (as an extension of the normal insurance I get from my wife's job): 11 euros. Fucking sweeter than any scratch ticket win, I'll tell ya.
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Postby Risottia » Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:18 am

Haganham wrote:Honestly I think the most likely solution to the American healthcare system would be for some activist org to start up an insurance equivalent of a credit union, but for insurance. A risk union, if you will
The fundamental problem with American healthcare system is that everything is done through insurance, because insurance is an industry that makes money by not doing business with it's customers. So they have an incentive to make dealing with them as difficult as possible, and A huge part of why medical billing is so byzantine is so that providers can actually recoup the costs from insurance companies, not just of the care itself, but of fighting with them.

A risk union has a fiduciary duty to it's policyholders, not shareholders, and so doesn't have a profit motive to deny claims.

Such an initiative in the US of A has the same chances of survival of a snowball in the solar cromosphere.
Congress would kill it ASAP at the behest of the medical insurance lobbies.
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Postby Estado Novo Portugues » Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:49 am

Haganham wrote:The fundamental problem with American healthcare system is that everything is done through insurance, because insurance is an industry that makes money by not doing business with it's customers.

Actually, I'd say that the problem is even further upstream ‒ the fact that healthcare is privatized in the first place. Had the government not dropped the ball big time, and provided its citizens with affordable care that didn't break the bank, that would've done away with the entire raison d’être for greedy insurance middlemen.
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Postby Emotional Support Crocodile » Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:48 am

If you fall for scare tactics like "death panels" and "socialised healthcare", every time someone tries to overcome the vested interests, this is what you win.
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:48 am

Haganham wrote:Honestly I think the most likely solution to the American healthcare system would be for some activist org to start up an insurance equivalent of a credit union, but for insurance. A risk union, if you will
The fundamental problem with American healthcare system is that everything is done through insurance, because insurance is an industry that makes money by not doing business with it's customers. So they have an incentive to make dealing with them as difficult as possible, and A huge part of why medical billing is so byzantine is so that providers can actually recoup the costs from insurance companies, not just of the care itself, but of fighting with them.

A risk union has a fiduciary duty to it's policyholders, not shareholders, and so doesn't have a profit motive to deny claims.

No profit motive? Well that sounds like communist infiltration.
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Postby Almighty Biden » Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:19 am

I'm a firm believer in private Healthcare. I do solemnly swear that no one lobbied me to say that!
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Postby -Britain- » Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:28 am

Almighty Biden wrote:I'm a firm believer in private Healthcare. I do solemnly swear that no one lobbied me to say that!


What America needs is a National Health Service, and not a system where paying more directly for better treatment is possible.
Last edited by -Britain- on Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vrbo » Fri Apr 19, 2024 10:54 pm

I love American Healthcare. I love when I have appendicitis and my insurance broker refuses to pay for a life-saving surgery because they deemed it an unnecessary medical procedure.
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Haganham
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Postby Haganham » Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:21 am

Risottia wrote:
Haganham wrote:Honestly I think the most likely solution to the American healthcare system would be for some activist org to start up an insurance equivalent of a credit union, but for insurance. A risk union, if you will
The fundamental problem with American healthcare system is that everything is done through insurance, because insurance is an industry that makes money by not doing business with it's customers. So they have an incentive to make dealing with them as difficult as possible, and A huge part of why medical billing is so byzantine is so that providers can actually recoup the costs from insurance companies, not just of the care itself, but of fighting with them.

A risk union has a fiduciary duty to it's policyholders, not shareholders, and so doesn't have a profit motive to deny claims.

Such an initiative in the US of A has the same chances of survival of a snowball in the solar cromosphere.
Congress would kill it ASAP at the behest of the medical insurance lobbies.

They haven't killed credit unions, and congress's ability to act on healthcare is pretty limited for political reasons.
Imagine reading a signature, but over the course of it the quality seems to deteriorate and it gets wose an wose, where the swenetence stwucture and gwammer rewerts to a pwoint of uttew non swence, an u jus dont wanna wead it anymwore (o´ω`o) awd twa wol owdewl iws jus awfwul (´・ω・`);. bwt tw sinawtur iwswnwt obwer nyet, it gwos own an own an own an own. uwu wanyaa stwop weadwing bwut uwu cwant stop wewding, uwu stwartd thwis awnd ur gwoing two fwinibsh it nowo mwattew wat! uwu hab mwoxie kwiddowo, bwut uwu wibl gwib ub sowon. i cwan wite wike dis fwor owors, swo dwont cwalengbe mii..

… wbats dis??? uwu awe stwill weedinb mwie sinatwr?? uwu habe awot ob detewemwinyanyatiom!! 。◕‿◕。! u habve comopweedid tha signwtr, good job!

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Postby Risottia » Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:22 am

Haganham wrote:
Risottia wrote:Such an initiative in the US of A has the same chances of survival of a snowball in the solar cromosphere.
Congress would kill it ASAP at the behest of the medical insurance lobbies.

They haven't killed credit unions, and congress's ability to act on healthcare is pretty limited for political reasons.

Where there's a will there's a way.
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Postby United Calanworie » Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:16 am

The opposition of the American public hasn't ever stopped them before, hell, look at the upcoming tiktok ban if you need a recent example.
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The Confederate States of America
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Postby The Confederate States of America » Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:13 am

I keep saying if I am injured, I am NOT calling an ambulance, I'm calling an Uber or Lyft or having someone drive me to NOT a hospital, but an urgent care.

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Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:22 am

The Confederate States of America wrote:I keep saying if I am injured, I am NOT calling an ambulance, I'm calling an Uber or Lyft or having someone drive me to NOT a hospital, but an urgent care.

The sad part is that the fact you have to do that is due to policy choices to help the few who profit off our healthcare system.
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:33 am

And a Whopper in Oklahoma costs different than in California. I'd love to see the stats of if the Hospitals that have higher prices are the ones who regularly get people who use their services but don't pay anything.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:20 pm

The Confederate States of America wrote:I keep saying if I am injured, I am NOT calling an ambulance, I'm calling an Uber or Lyft or having someone drive me to NOT a hospital, but an urgent care.


Depends on the injury. Urgent doesn’t take care of everything…..

-edit-

Also did a quick scan on uber/lyft having to give rides for medical emergencies. A couple drivers responded and said They have the right to refuse as they are not equipped to deal with a medical emergency.
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:25 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:And a Whopper in Oklahoma costs different than in California. I'd love to see the stats of if the Hospitals that have higher prices are the ones who regularly get people who use their services but don't pay anything.


Not sure how a hamburger cost compares.

Saw a report how ERs are trying to discourage use as they are getting overwhelmed. Hell I have seen stories of women getting denied for pregnancy emergencies and a possible abortion.

Free market will not solve the problem of medical access.
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:39 pm

Vrbo wrote:I love American Healthcare. I love when I have appendicitis and my insurance broker refuses to pay for a life-saving surgery because they deemed it an unnecessary medical procedure.


Oh indeed. I was getting allergy treatments as I was having issues. One time the doc said he wanted to run a test to make sure what he had in mind was right when I having breathing issues. He warned Insurance will deny it as they think it’s not needed. It was only 40$. I said sure.

Sure enough. The automatic letter of it was being denied as it was not needed as per Doctor “such and such”. Gynecologist. I was “Oh wtf. Can’t write a denial using an allergy doc?”. I decided to have fun and called and complained many times. The first time resulted in the same letter without a doctors name. They spent far more than 40$ trying to discourage me from arguing.

Another time was my mother. She worked labor and deliver for over forty years. She tells the story of a patient needed surgery for a problem. She was supposed to meet with the specialist (forget the surgery needed) and found him in his office on the phone screaming the insurance people who denied what he wanted to do.

Some of the comments she remembered.

“What do you mean it’s not needed?!?!?”
“Who said it was not needed?!?”
“What do you mean you don’t give that information out?!?!?”
“I will have you know if those doctors exist, they were either students of mine or used my text books!”

It went on and he slammed the phone. I think she said he reached for a bottle in his desk.

He said “what is wrong with this country? A 19-20ish year old woman is deciding what i can do!”

Mom said he was like 3rd in the world for pediatrics…..
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Postby Almighty Biden » Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:43 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:And a Whopper in Oklahoma costs different than in California. I'd love to see the stats of if the Hospitals that have higher prices are the ones who regularly get people who use their services but don't pay anything.

What does that have to do with a whopper?
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Postby Esternial » Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:23 pm

Do no harm - except when it's to your patients' credit score, that's fair game.

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Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:09 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
The Lone Alliance wrote:And a Whopper in Oklahoma costs different than in California. I'd love to see the stats of if the Hospitals that have higher prices are the ones who regularly get people who use their services but don't pay anything.


Not sure how a hamburger cost compares.

Cost of living is different depending on where you are, it should be no surprise that it applies to Hospitals too.

The Black Forrest wrote:Saw a report how ERs are trying to discourage use as they are getting overwhelmed. Hell I have seen stories of women getting denied for pregnancy emergencies and a possible abortion.
Free market will not solve the problem of medical access.

I've been seeing reports that many Hospitals are operating deep into the Red now and some might even be at risk of closing. Neu California seems to be under the impression that Hospitals are just raking in Profits and they're doing prices differences because of greed, when it might be some Hospitals are desperate.

I want to know if the Hospitals jacking up the prices are the ones who have a revolving door of people coming in and out using services without paying.

Bad thing is if these hospitals go under they'll either shut down leaving healthcare deserts or be bought out by some big group who will let the hospital live at the cost of higher prices and even worse service.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Neu California
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Postby Neu California » Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:36 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Not sure how a hamburger cost compares.

Cost of living is different depending on where you are, it should be no surprise that it applies to Hospitals too.

The Black Forrest wrote:Saw a report how ERs are trying to discourage use as they are getting overwhelmed. Hell I have seen stories of women getting denied for pregnancy emergencies and a possible abortion.
Free market will not solve the problem of medical access.

I've been seeing reports that many Hospitals are operating deep into the Red now and some might even be at risk of closing. Neu California seems to be under the impression that Hospitals are just raking in Profits and they're doing prices differences because of greed, when it might be some Hospitals are desperate.

I want to know if the Hospitals jacking up the prices are the ones who have a revolving door of people coming in and out using services without paying.

Bad thing is if these hospitals go under they'll either shut down leaving healthcare deserts or be bought out by some big group who will let the hospital live at the cost of higher prices and even worse service.

Note that I pointed out in my op that rural hospitals aren't making enough money to stay open. I'd rather have a single payer providing the funding to keep hospitals open rather than relying on the vagaries of the free market to maybe keep them open while bankrupting people who get seriously ill or injured.
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Kerwa » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:35 am

Esternial wrote:Do no harm - except when it's to your patients' credit score, that's fair game.


Medical debt is no longer factored in credit scores. How much of a cunt do you have to be for even Equifax to be disgusted? That’s how bad it is.

Teh main problems are admin costs and pharma, so they will never be fixed for obvious reasons. Even the relatively obvious step of restricting the market to mutual insurance companies seems to be beyond the government. The reasons for this are an impenetrable mystery apparently.

In conclusion, jail the bankers & humiliate the stinking old ninth etc.

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Antahbrantahstan
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Posts: 453
Founded: May 29, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Antahbrantahstan » Fri Oct 25, 2024 2:45 am

It's no wonder the prices are so high, what with all the audits they have to face. Just take the PBM audit. One of the toughest.
Last edited by Antahbrantahstan on Mon Oct 28, 2024 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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