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Whats the most irksome argument you have ever heard?

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Benuty
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Whats the most irksome argument you have ever heard?

Postby Benuty » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:25 pm

So I am taking a class that offers some very interesting critiques of language, and by extension how critical thought is formed. I figured I would start a bit of an experiment that is different from the normal mudslinging, trolling, and sly debating that makes NSG particularly infamous. Everyone has an argument they have heard that really grinds their gears, takes pickles out of their deli, makes the chips stale, unfizzies their soda, and unsauces their spaghetti. I want to use this thread for everyone to put an argument in here that gets you seething because something about it is off, but to avoid the mods coming down here, and exterminating people I ask that it is done respectfully.

My Example: One poster here seemed particularly committed to defending the revisionist history that purports St. Patrick committed genocide on the Irish as snakes don't live in Ireland, and the snakes represent the faith being driven off by force. This poster claimed it was the reason that the family stopped eating off-brand commercialized Irish food for what has become a drinking holiday. I pointed out from actual secular Historians, and devout neopagan sources that this is profoundly false. There is no genocide on record by Saint Patrick. My sources were rebutted for being from Reddit, and thus trash despite their serious effort.

My Counterpoint (which I should have made at the time): This revisionist history makes the rounds every St. Patrick's Day to get people to feel guilty in a manner similar to how people complain about Columbus Day. The key difference? We have proof Christopher Columbus actually killed people. Not just because of the facts written by the man, but also the criticisms written by him from the Spanish Court which sacked him, and the famed "Protector of the Indians "Bartolomé de las Casas who wrote extensively on how the crimes against the Natives (even beyond Christopher Columbus) horrified him. We have records of the Baltic Crusades and atrocities committed there. Strangely...there is none whatsoever about Saint Patrick, and more astonishingly is the fact that the Irish faith seemed to persist well after St. Patrick's supposed genocide. Mentions of force on behalf of Saint Patrick come well after his lifetime and cannot seriously be taken into consideration. As it stands the genocide of Saint Patrick is atrocity propaganda whether you like my sources or not.

So unleavened and leavened masses of Nationstates what is the most irksome argument you have heard? This doesn't have to be limited to nation-states as people argue in real life all the time.
Last edited by Benuty on Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:37 pm

Right-wing conspiracy theories, especially those that are meant to dehumanize people, like the "LGBTQ+ people are groomers" conspiracy theory.
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Postby Benuty » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:38 pm

Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Right-wing conspiracy theories, especially those that are meant to dehumanize people, like the "LGBTQ+ people are groomers" conspiracy theory.

Oh, those are always fun to deal with. Our professor is preparing to have us steelman (not straw man) arguments no matter how much we despise them, and some of the people in the class are going to have a fun time with that.
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Postby Saiwana » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:39 pm

Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Right-wing conspiracy theories, especially those that are meant to dehumanize people, like the "LGBTQ+ people are groomers" conspiracy theory.


Fighting the culture war is the only way to undo the excesses of people if they're ignored and just allowed to do whatever they want as they have been for too long.
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Postby Godular » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:41 pm

A student saying "ALL I NEED IS READING AND MATH!"

Sounded like something he'd heard from his parents, which is just... wrong.
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Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:41 pm

Benuty wrote:
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Right-wing conspiracy theories, especially those that are meant to dehumanize people, like the "LGBTQ+ people are groomers" conspiracy theory.

Oh, those are always fun to deal with. Our professor is preparing to have us steelman (not straw man) arguments no matter how much we despise them, and some of the people in the class are going to have a fun time with that.

Some of these conspiracy theories are so absurd, I'm not sure how you could steelman or strawman them. Not that they deserve anyone attempting to steelman them, since that would be giving them more credit than they actually deserve.
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Postby Benuty » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:44 pm

Saiwana wrote:
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Right-wing conspiracy theories, especially those that are meant to dehumanize people, like the "LGBTQ+ people are groomers" conspiracy theory.


Fighting the culture war is the only way to undo the excesses of people if they're ignored and just allowed to do whatever they want as they have been for too long.

My problem with this idea of such an event being a war is that inevitably there is supposed to be an end goal here. Like Francoist Spain won the Spanish Civil War politically, religiously, and culturally only for it to collapse when Franco restored the Monarchy by appointing the future king as his successor. Sure Catholicism and right-wing elements are present in the Kingdom of Spain, but so are the cultural minorities, and political leftists that wouldn't have seen predominance were a Francoist-styled regime still in place. The problem is a culture war relies on perpetuation, but wars cannot realistically be fought forever even the North Korean government knows this. Then you have democracies and republics where the cultural war can go the complete opposite way of the people who started it.
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Postby Benuty » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:46 pm

Godular wrote:A student saying "ALL I NEED IS READING AND MATH!"

Sounded like something he'd heard from his parents, which is just... wrong.

I have fun watching STEM students who refuse to take ethics classes wonder why other students look at them like monsters when they propose solutions that are going to cause a lot of harm. Elon Musk and the death rate of monkeys in the neurolink program is one such example of why ethics classes shouldn't be scrapped.
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Postby Floofybit » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:46 pm

People who say vegetables are better than fruit.
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Postby Benuty » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:49 pm

Floofybit wrote:People who say vegetables are better than fruit.

Then you have the subcategory of this where people debate about what is a fruit or vegetable.
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Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:49 pm

Benuty wrote:My problem with this idea of such an event being a war is that inevitably there is supposed to be an end goal here.

The end goal with Sai and people like him is persecution and genocide. Of course, there isn't going to be a noble goal he or his compatriots fight for.
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Postby The Terren Dominion » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:51 pm

One of the most annoying things I have heard repeatedly is the "Only women and children are loved unconditionally, men are only loved if they provide something." You can argue that love should not be predicated on things like jobs or figures sure, but when you say things like this it is just so horrifically disingenuous, sexist, and just flat out wrong. I also find it very funny that the men who make these arguments are often the same men who expect women to continually maintain their figure, take care of children and maintain the household. It just really annoys me when I hear this argument, because it is designed to invoke an "us vs them" mentality by playing on insecure men's emotions.
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Postby Lothria » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:52 pm

Godular wrote:A student saying "ALL I NEED IS READING AND MATH!"

Sounded like something he'd heard from his parents, which is just... wrong.

Hearing this genuinely makes me worried about the future of our species
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Postby Johodovill » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:53 pm

Floofybit wrote:People who say vegetables are better than fruit.

They exist?
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Postby Benuty » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:54 pm

Dimetrodon Empire wrote:
Benuty wrote:Oh, those are always fun to deal with. Our professor is preparing to have us steelman (not straw man) arguments no matter how much we despise them, and some of the people in the class are going to have a fun time with that.

Some of these conspiracy theories are so absurd, I'm not sure how you could steelman or strawman them. Not that they deserve anyone attempting to steelman them, since that would be giving them more credit than they actually deserve.

Well, depending on how one assesses problems steelmanning is often being charitable to them if their argument is absolutely terrible (not just from a moral sense, but that they are arguing badly). You could always just do the Peter Singer routine, and bite the bullet, but thats how you get Peter Singer going all in on including infanticide as an acceptable form of late-term abortion. At least that would be honest when a lot of people arent because they try to dog whistle about their intentions (Podcasters are guilty of this a lot).
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Postby Floofybit » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:55 pm

Johodovill wrote:
Floofybit wrote:People who say vegetables are better than fruit.

They exist?

It pains me to say so :(
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Postby Europa Undivided » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:55 pm

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Postby Kerwa » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:59 pm

Benuty wrote:
Godular wrote:A student saying "ALL I NEED IS READING AND MATH!"

Sounded like something he'd heard from his parents, which is just... wrong.

I have fun watching STEM students who refuse to take ethics classes wonder why other students look at them like monsters when they propose solutions that are going to cause a lot of harm. Elon Musk and the death rate of monkeys in the neurolink program is one such example of why ethics classes shouldn't be scrapped.


We had a mandatory engineering ethics component when I did my degree. It probably would have been too difficult for arts students though.

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Postby Benuty » Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:02 pm

Dimetrodon Empire wrote:
Benuty wrote:My problem with this idea of such an event being a war is that inevitably there is supposed to be an end goal here.

The end goal with Sai and people like him is persecution and genocide. Of course, there isn't going to be a noble goal he or his compatriots fight for.

I mean sure, but assuming they win they will want to be seen as the good guys (for pragmatic reasons) or sincerely believe their goals are good (the true believers). "*Insert whatever end-goal here* done by our righteous leaders was totally justified because it *insert whatever result*". I mean we see this behavior typical for leaders of fallen countries particularly if people believe their standards of living were better under that former country and former leader (Tito and Yugoslavia). Otherwise, all the death and suffering was for absolutely nothing, and people will be stuck in a loop of consequences made by people in the past.
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Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:02 pm

Benuty wrote:
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Some of these conspiracy theories are so absurd, I'm not sure how you could steelman or strawman them. Not that they deserve anyone attempting to steelman them, since that would be giving them more credit than they actually deserve.

Well, depending on how one assesses problems steelmanning is often being charitable to them if their argument is absolutely terrible (not just from a moral sense, but that they are arguing badly). You could always just do the Peter Singer routine, and bite the bullet, but thats how you get Peter Singer going all in on including infanticide as an acceptable form of late-term abortion. At least that would be honest when a lot of people arent because they try to dog whistle about their intentions (Podcasters are guilty of this a lot).

1. Such arguments do not deserve my charity. I will attack them, unmodified.

2. I don't know who Peter Singer is, but I am pretty sure the vast vast majority of pro-choice activists do not want outright infanticide. Not sure how it pertains to what I said though.
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Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:06 pm

Benuty wrote:Otherwise, all the death and suffering was for absolutely nothing, and people will be stuck in a loop of consequences made by people in the past.

Sometimes, people just want others to suffer and die, and believe they are in the right due to a belief in their own "superiority" and a desire to punish others for their "inferiority." They then promote the idea that the "inferiors" are to blame for every lightbulb that goes off in our society, and many are all too willing to believe it or go along with it. Looking "good" has nothing to do with it, and those who would question the morality of it or how "good" it is, are going to just receive their wrath.

The ideological depth in vile ideologies you are looking for is no longer needed or desired by their adherents.
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Postby Johodovill » Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:08 pm

Floofybit wrote:
Johodovill wrote:They exist?

It pains me to say so :(

:( :( :(
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Postby TheKeyToJoy » Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:10 pm

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Postby Bayshire » Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:12 pm

The romanticism of the past, acting like things were better outright without acknowledging that life was much harder back them and people were almost certainly more miserable than we are now.
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Postby Floofybit » Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:15 pm

Johodovill wrote:
Floofybit wrote:It pains me to say so :(

:( :( :(
we must give a free nectarine to all of those misguided vegetable-lovers

Orange coloured fruit supremacy :bow:
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