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Shakespeare is useless?

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Should students be forced to read Shakespeare?

Yes
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61%
No
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Total votes : 135

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Infected Mushroom
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Shakespeare is useless?

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:55 pm

A quick thought experiment.

Student A goes through high school and is forced to read some Shakespeare and write assignments/be tested and quizzed on it. Student B went through the same program but wasn’t asked to read any Shakespeare (instead, that time was used to study English grammar and reading comprehension of modern English).

Who got the better deal?

Why are students forced to study Shakespeare? It’s the 21st century and his English is now considered poor in the modern context, his stories weren’t even original (it was basically plagiarized fan fiction), and whatever he had to say has been said better in other works. Not to mention, his stories are boring, unreadable nonsense to the vast majority of modern minds. Thinking back to my schooldays, not a single person in my entire year liked him or his writings (Romeo and Juliet is cringe, so is Julius Caesar).

What’s your take on this? Should we force kids to read Shakespeare as part of the National education system? Yes or no? Why?

We shouldn’t. It’s not productive.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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THe cHadS
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Postby THe cHadS » Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:58 pm

Shakespeare, at least at my school is not to learn about the English language, it’s to learn about what it was like to live in that era.
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Adharcaili
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Postby Adharcaili » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:01 pm

I used to hate Shakespeare. Thought he was overrated. Then I changed my mind. Words aren't just a way to communicate for him, they are tools to shape your mind, your world, and the people in it. Language isn't a form of communication for me, it's a game
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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:02 pm

More why do I need to study the humanities? "thought experiments," I see.

I don't necessarily think students need to be forced to read Shakespeare. They should be forced to watch it, though. This isn't just the written word, this is the written word that is meant to be experienced as a whole performance. A lot of the problems with teaching Shakespeare in modern classrooms is that it is done in a very dry setting where people just read the words on the page and, as growing minds do, struggle to comprehend what those words mean. But when they watch Shakespeare, with the help of actors who have read these words front to back a thousand times and know them by heart and know what they mean, it really brings a whole new dimension to learning.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Badeat
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Postby Badeat » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:07 pm

The question is why shouldn't students be forced to learn grammar?

Shakespeare is part of world literature and in my experience, you actually don't have to learn it. At most you read through one play in class, and if you don't pay attention, you could still graduate.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:49 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:More why do I need to study the humanities? "thought experiments," I see.

I don't necessarily think students need to be forced to read Shakespeare. They should be forced to watch it, though. This isn't just the written word, this is the written word that is meant to be experienced as a whole performance. A lot of the problems with teaching Shakespeare in modern classrooms is that it is done in a very dry setting where people just read the words on the page and, as growing minds do, struggle to comprehend what those words mean. But when they watch Shakespeare, with the help of actors who have read these words front to back a thousand times and know them by heart and know what they mean, it really brings a whole new dimension to learning.


Pretty much, reading Shakespeare in the class is like dissecting a frog, sure you might know how it works but you kind of kill the frog.

Anyway, Shakespeare could pack more insight into a single couplet than likely the OP has in their some 40,000 posts.
Last edited by Bombadil on Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kostane
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Postby Kostane » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:54 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:A quick thought experiment.

Student A goes through high school and is forced to read some Shakespeare and write assignments/be tested and quizzed on it. Student B went through the same program but wasn’t asked to read any Shakespeare (instead, that time was used to study English grammar and reading comprehension of modern English).

Who got the better deal?

Why are students forced to study Shakespeare? It’s the 21st century and his English is now considered poor in the modern context, his stories weren’t even original (it was basically plagiarized fan fiction), and whatever he had to say has been said better in other works. Not to mention, his stories are boring, unreadable nonsense to the vast majority of modern minds. Thinking back to my schooldays, not a single person in my entire year liked him or his writings (Romeo and Juliet is cringe, so is Julius Caesar).

What’s your take on this? Should we force kids to read Shakespeare as part of the National education system? Yes or no? Why?

We shouldn’t. It’s not productive.

Is not poetry and metaphors by another name just as educational? Shakespeare provides a solid starting point for learning about poetry, soliloquies, and common narrative structures. The writing is good quality, and it’s good to have to think about the words at least once in a while. Also, English is history because language changes over time, so learning the context of Shakespeare is truly important.
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Adharcaili
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Postby Adharcaili » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:57 pm

Kostane wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:A quick thought experiment.

Student A goes through high school and is forced to read some Shakespeare and write assignments/be tested and quizzed on it. Student B went through the same program but wasn’t asked to read any Shakespeare (instead, that time was used to study English grammar and reading comprehension of modern English).

Who got the better deal?

Why are students forced to study Shakespeare? It’s the 21st century and his English is now considered poor in the modern context, his stories weren’t even original (it was basically plagiarized fan fiction), and whatever he had to say has been said better in other works. Not to mention, his stories are boring, unreadable nonsense to the vast majority of modern minds. Thinking back to my schooldays, not a single person in my entire year liked him or his writings (Romeo and Juliet is cringe, so is Julius Caesar).

What’s your take on this? Should we force kids to read Shakespeare as part of the National education system? Yes or no? Why?

We shouldn’t. It’s not productive.

Is not poetry and metaphors by another name just as educational? Shakespeare provides a solid starting point for learning about poetry, soliloquies, and common narrative structures. The writing is good quality, and it’s good to have to think about the words at least once in a while. Also, English is history because language changes over time, so learning the context of Shakespeare is truly important.

Also, Shakespeare could at times be fecking hilarious. He put several dick jokes in his plays, especially R & J, and a your mom joke in T. A.
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Andronya
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Postby Andronya » Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:59 pm

ALL literature, art, culture and music is "useless".

Doesn't mean there's good reason to ignore, neglect or much less destroy it.
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Kostane
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Postby Kostane » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:00 pm

Adharcaili wrote:
Kostane wrote:Is not poetry and metaphors by another name just as educational? Shakespeare provides a solid starting point for learning about poetry, soliloquies, and common narrative structures. The writing is good quality, and it’s good to have to think about the words at least once in a while. Also, English is history because language changes over time, so learning the context of Shakespeare is truly important.

Also, Shakespeare could at times be fecking hilarious. He put several dick jokes in his plays, especially R & J, and a your mom joke in T. A.

When my teacher explained all the dick jokes in R&J it was actually so funny.
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:01 pm

Andronya wrote:ALL literature, art, culture and music is "useless".

Doesn't mean there's good reason to ignore, neglect or much less destroy it.


Art is not useless, as the eminent professor John Keating noted, it's to woo women.
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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:05 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:More why do I need to study the humanities? "thought experiments," I see.

I don't necessarily think students need to be forced to read Shakespeare. They should be forced to watch it, though. This isn't just the written word, this is the written word that is meant to be experienced as a whole performance. A lot of the problems with teaching Shakespeare in modern classrooms is that it is done in a very dry setting where people just read the words on the page and, as growing minds do, struggle to comprehend what those words mean. But when they watch Shakespeare, with the help of actors who have read these words front to back a thousand times and know them by heart and know what they mean, it really brings a whole new dimension to learning.


Pretty much, reading Shakespeare in the class is like dissecting a frog, sure you might know how it works but you kind of kill the frog.

Anyway, Shakespeare could pack more insight into a single couplet than likely the OP has in their some 40,000 posts.

Many scholars of Shakespeare see it as a massive mistake for educational institutions to treat Shakespeare's plays as text first and performance second. This is usually how Shakespeare is handled, with teenagers highlighting passages behind their desks for a day or two until the teacher gets bored and decides to spend tomorrow's hour watching clips from one of the thousand adaptations of Othello or Merchant of Venice or (in my case and in the case with many) Romeo and Juliet. These works were created in a very collaborative setting - as theater is by its very nature one of the most collaborative classical art forms - in what modern theater practitioners would recognize today as devised theater, by a theater troupe who helped craft the piece based on how the words and sentences we now see on the pages sounded to an audience.

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Postby Eahland » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:12 pm

Of all the authors we were required to read in my English classes, Shakespeare is one of only, like, four that I've ever willingly read anything else by. (The others are Mark Twain, George Orwell (we did Animal Farm in class; 1984 I read on my own), and Ray Bradbury). There are reasons that he's still taught 400 years later.

It's also history and historical linguistics as much as it is literature. We did Shakespeare after "Beowulf" and Chaucer.
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Postby Page » Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 am

Insofar as I might oppose making students read Shakespeare, it's for the dead exact opposite reason as IM. If it's very difficult for a student to appreciate such old literature and they aren't enthused about the style of poetry or the different meanings of words at the time, then they should be reading something else. Specifically, they should be reading any kind of novel or poem or story that resonates with them and inspires them.

Get the hell out of here with productivity. I'm sick of living in a cult of productivity. Let's just let students simply experience a thing sometimes, is that too much to ask?
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Postby Luziyca » Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:49 am

Page wrote:Insofar as I might oppose making students read Shakespeare, it's for the dead exact opposite reason as IM. If it's very difficult for a student to appreciate such old literature and they aren't enthused about the style of poetry or the different meanings of words at the time, then they should be reading something else. Specifically, they should be reading any kind of novel or poem or story that resonates with them and inspires them.

Get the hell out of here with productivity. I'm sick of living in a cult of productivity. Let's just let students simply experience a thing sometimes, is that too much to ask?

Absolutely this: as someone who read Romeo and Juliet in Grade 9, Macbeth in Grade 10 English and Hamlet in Grade 12, I personally enjoyed them (though it helped that my English teachers shown us the movies: in order, the 1996 Luhrmann film; the 1971 Polanski film, and the 1996 Branagh film, not to mention I volunteered at (and still volunteer at) my city's Shakespeare festival during the summer months), but while it is useful historically to understand the time period and as a way to understand the history of the English language, there's probably some works that are comparable to Shakespeare in quality that can be more easily understandable by the average reader, yet contributes just as much to English classes the world over.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:27 am

In the modern age it's shocking that the author hasn't been rebranded to she/herkspeare
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Postby Valentine Z » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:36 am

To learn Shakespeare stuff, or not to learn? That, is the question.

Merchant of Venice is my favorite. I'm sure Macbeth is nice too, but I was 12 back then for a school play and my little mind couldn't exactly appreciate it.
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Postby Neovilla » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:42 am

Infected Mushroom wrote: It’s the 21st century and his English is now considered poor in the modern context,


I enjoy Shakespeare because of Westworld.

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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:54 am

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Postby Emotional Support Crocodile » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:14 am

I still have resentment that being taught Shakespeare at school alienated me from something good, my 15 year brain wasn't ready to appreciate it. You don't introduce young people to physics with string theory, so maybe something they can relate to more would be a better choice. Getting them excited by reading, and sending them on their own journey of discovery is the important thing.
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Postby Tel Karol » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:18 am

It can be important to gave reading for history, but for language, it became literature. We want to teach how to use language well effective and in a sense where it can fit your normal day in adulthood. In case what Shakespeare can help to anyone in school, it is the developing of language, then it came linguistics.

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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:26 am

"Having accepted the premise that Shakespeare sucks, why then do we have to read him?"

I think it might be the premise that is the real point of contention here, and not the link from premise to conclusion.
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Postby Unmet Player » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:28 am

Shakespeare is actually very useful

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Postby Risottia » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:30 am

Infected Mushroom wrote: It’s the 21st century and his English is now considered poor in the modern context, his stories weren’t even original (it was basically plagiarized fan fiction), and whatever he had to say has been said better in other works. Not to mention, his stories are boring, unreadable nonsense to the vast majority of modern minds.

Aw Jeez.

In other words, IM thought skipping homework about Shakespeare was the edgy thing to do and was upset when the teacher graded his test poorly. So upset he's still complaining about it years after.
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Postby Valentine Z » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:33 am

Risottia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote: It’s the 21st century and his English is now considered poor in the modern context, his stories weren’t even original (it was basically plagiarized fan fiction), and whatever he had to say has been said better in other works. Not to mention, his stories are boring, unreadable nonsense to the vast majority of modern minds.

Aw Jeez.

In other words, IM thought skipping homework about Shakespeare was the edgy thing to do and was upset when the teacher graded his test poorly. So upset he's still complaining about it years after.

Not relevant, but I sucked at Literature in my secondary school days. :p Admittedly, I didn't exactly appreciate the Humanities back then as a teen. Though, if I have to do it again right now, I'll most very definitely appreciate it more.

I'll most absolutely ham it up (in a good way, or weird way, whatever!) if I'm asked to do some drama now.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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