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Durmengrad Prime
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Founded: Sep 24, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Tag Question

Postby Durmengrad Prime » Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:04 am

The "Founderless" tag still exists, but apparently is not being given to regions when their founders CTE anymore? Is it supposed to be like that? Or does it have something to do with CTEing outside the region or also being the governor?

(Example: the same region I mentioned in this thread has a CTE founder+governor nation that CTEd outside the region and no founderless tag.)
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Sedgistan
Site Director
 
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:12 am

Sounds like it was an oversight leaving it in place. Unless anyone has strong reasons to retain it, we can probably just delete the Founderless tag.

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United Calanworie
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Founded: Dec 12, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby United Calanworie » Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:21 am

Sedgistan wrote:Sounds like it was an oversight leaving it in place. Unless anyone has strong reasons to retain it, we can probably just delete the Founderless tag.

*mumbles something about there still being true-founderless regions that the tag applies to*
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Sedgistan
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Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:34 am

Yeah, but no-one cares about finding them any more :P

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Panagouge
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Panagouge » Mon Feb 05, 2024 4:13 pm

Counterpoint: The old badgers who will want to maintain historical accuracy.
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Sedgistan
Site Director
 
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Mon Feb 26, 2024 2:17 am

A couple of legacy tags have been removed - Founderless and Sinker. The latter was superceded in last year's Frontiers update by the Restorer and Catcher tags.

The various "FT" tags might be considered for removal soon too, as they are unintuitively named, overly specific, and the "Future Tech" tag covers them.

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Mad Jack Is Rejected
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Founded: Aug 31, 2021
New York Times Democracy

Postby Mad Jack Is Rejected » Mon Feb 26, 2024 2:45 am

Sedgistan wrote:A couple of legacy tags have been removed - Founderless and Sinker. The latter was superceded in last year's Frontiers update by the Restorer and Catcher tags.

A genuinely garbage decision that yet again attacks The Rejected Realms for unknown reasons. We never wanted the catcher label and we've explicitly rejected it multiple times. Catcher isn't even a good descriptor of what TRR is, and Sinker was left as some kind of compromise after the imposition of Catcher. And now we lose another part of what our region is and its history.

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The Eltran
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Founded: Jan 29, 2023
Anarchy

Postby The Eltran » Mon Feb 26, 2024 2:53 am

Sedgistan wrote:A couple of legacy tags have been removed - Founderless and Sinker. The latter was superceded in last year's Frontiers update by the Restorer and Catcher tags.

The various "FT" tags might be considered for removal soon too, as they are unintuitively named, overly specific, and the "Future Tech" tag covers them.


Every time I see those FT tags, I just wonder WTFT they mean
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MANS0N
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Founded: Mar 28, 2023
Anarchy

Postby MANS0N » Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:00 pm

Sedgistan wrote:A couple of legacy tags have been removed - Founderless and Sinker. The latter was superceded in last year's Frontiers update by the Restorer and Catcher tags.

The various "FT" tags might be considered for removal soon too, as they are unintuitively named, overly specific, and the "Future Tech" tag covers them.


Aside from echoing Mad Jack’s sentiments, I’d like to say that while this really doesn’t matter from a technical standpoint, it’s an incredibly historically ignorant move. The Sinker and Founderless tags at least should’ve been left to avoid erasure. Lazarus and The Rejected Realms were the original Sinkers, and once Laz gained the ability to eject, TRR’s Sinkerite identity began to be questioned, especially with the introduction of the twins — Osi and Balder.

Catcher undoubtedly always will be a label imposed on TRR that it’ll continue to reject, despite that, I’d implore moderation to leave these legacy tags, not only because they weren’t hurting anything just existing, but also due to the historical significance they hold.
Last edited by MANS0N on Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:16 pm

How about a compromise? Leave the sinker tag with Osiris, Balder, Lazarus, and TRR designated as such.

Edit: I'm shocked that some players have asked if this is satire. It is certainly not. A new compromise: Sedgistan resigns as Site Director and recommends the Notorious Madjack as his successor.
Last edited by Bormiar on Mon Feb 26, 2024 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Liberza
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Liberza » Mon Feb 26, 2024 2:54 pm

Bormiar wrote:A new compromise: Sedgistan resigns as Site Director and recommends the Notorious Madjack as his successor.

That is a stretch
Liberza is a bicameral parliamentary, monarchist nation set in Germany, currently led by democratic socialist Malik Simoneit. The year is 2096. EST. 1949.
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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Mon Feb 26, 2024 3:02 pm

Liberza wrote:
Bormiar wrote:A new compromise: Sedgistan resigns as Site Director and recommends the Notorious Madjack as his successor.

That is a stretch

Nonsense.

For reference, the original compromise was what I described above, that the sinker tag is left alongside the catcher designation. This has now been reversed.

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Reventus Koth
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Reventus Koth » Mon Feb 26, 2024 6:35 pm

Sedgistan wrote:A couple of legacy tags have been removed - Founderless and Sinker. The latter was superceded in last year's Frontiers update by the Restorer and Catcher tags.

The various "FT" tags might be considered for removal soon too, as they are unintuitively named, overly specific, and the "Future Tech" tag covers them.

This is ridiculous. Both tags still have demonstrable relevance to the Gameplay community. You are using region tags prescriptively instead of descriptively, which is unfair for decade+ old communities that see no reason to adopt your force-fed language. I don't know of a single sinkerite that has been happy to re-define their identity as a "restorer" or "catcher" for no other reason than meddling admins slapping the labels on top of their regions.
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Toerana
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Founded: Nov 27, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Toerana » Mon Feb 26, 2024 6:53 pm

Region tags are as much, if not more, about regional identity than it is about describing a region. Tags are useful for new players to search for specific types regions they're interested in, yes, but they're also about giving the region the ability to identity itself as it wishes. The Sinker tags is, whether some like it or not, a part of regional identity for a large number of players active in those regions. I also don't see tag bloat as a big issue. If it was a technical issue, like large numbers of puppets, surely more than a single tag would have been removed.

I do agree Catcher and Restorer are more descriptive terms for new players to describe the two flavours of sinkers, but that doesn't negate the fact they have always been known, and are still known at least within their own regions (for TRR at least) and the gameplay community as sinkers. Admin related changes can't change that.

That being said, I don't see too much of a reason to be fixated on descriptivism over regional identity when at the top of all of the sinkers nation pages are literal descriptions of what the regions are about, and the region's name is descriptive in and of itself (in the case of TRR)! I mean, "the Rejected Realms" is clearer than "Catcher" for describing what the region is for. Searching by "Catcher" is useless too; there's one catcher, and unless there are behind the scenes plans to create more nobody is ever going to use the catcher tag, or likely the restorer tag due to their small number (of 3) to find them as they're relatively well known.

The Future Tech tag may also encompass the existing FT tags, but similar to how "Anti World Assembly" encompasses both "Anti General Assembly" and "Anti Security Council", I don't think that nuance should be lost for no good reason. They're not exactly a bother to anyone, and the people who care about the nuance... care about the nuance. Unless you're looking at adding a brand to suite of tags that would drastically inflate the number to where the number of tags is impractically large when scrolling the list, there's no reason to get rid of those tags.

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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Mon Feb 26, 2024 6:54 pm

Ok, serious response now. You (Sedgistan) said the following in 2022:

Sedgistan wrote:The "sinker" tag may yet be removed from the Rejected Realms in the future; it shares no similarities in mechanics with Lazarus/Balder/Osiris.

Sedgistan wrote:
Catalyse wrote:What even was the purpose of a tag that has just one region in it, with no possibility of it including other regions.

We can't rule out adding another one in the future; one day there might be a need for another Catcher.

I forgot I'd added the Restorer tag too. It makes the "Sinker" one unnecessary, but I think it got left in place because of everyone's attachment to it. It's pointless from the point of view of why tag exist in the game, and players could use the term anyway without official sanction of it, but for the time being it'll stay in place.

And the following in 2021:

Sedgistan wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Can we not do 4, give TRR a Catcher tag, give O/L/B a Resurrector etc. tag and keep the Sinker for them all. Then it's easy to differentiate, but neither side 'loses' their Sinker status. They're just tags, so it's cosmetic.

Okay, this is The Compromise Plan for now. But Restorer still feels more "nation-y" than Resurrector or Reviver, so it's likely to be the winner for O/L/B.


What changed?

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Sysop
Civilian
 
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Founded: Nov 28, 2015
Free-Market Paradise

Postby Sysop » Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:12 pm

Sedgistan wrote:Yeah, but no-one cares about finding them any more :P

Image

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Montrandec
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Founded: Jul 22, 2019
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Montrandec » Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:30 pm

I will forever miss the founderless and sinker tags. Removing the founderless tag is absolutely pointless as it's useful as long as it is fixed, I do enjoy checking them out every once in a while. The sinker tag would make it harder to locate all the GCRs, and absolutely pointless since Warzones and Feeders still retain their tags, as well as inconvenient to TRR for reasons Madjack explained.
I see removing either as pointless, but then again, I'm nobody.

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Comfed
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Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:02 pm

Maybe there's the argument to be made that the sinker tag wasn't helping anyone find anything but... I don't think the catcher tag is really helping anyone find anything either. Is anyone really going to figure out what a "catcher" does through its name? There is a pretty easy way to find out what TRR/a "catcher" does, and it's by looking at the region page, as others have already pointed out:
The Rejected Realms is a Catcher. Nations expelled from other regions gather here.
Besides that I'll definitely echo other posters' comments about history. The idea of a "sinker" region - and certainly of a "founderless" region is fairly ingrained in the "lore" of NS. Maybe you can call that a marginal part of the game, but I've personally always found it to be very compelling and I probably wouldn't have stuck around for this long (<_<) if it hadn't been there. Reducing its prominence because the game mechanics have moved on to a certain extent seems, at best, pretty useless to everyone.

I mean, I guess it's not totally surprising to see another change for no other reason than change's sake, but seriously, what was the point? :P

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Sedgistan
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Tue Feb 27, 2024 2:56 am

Players do not need a site imposed tag on a region to use that terminology to describe it. We can see that with the widespread use of the term "Stronghold" region, which was briefly part of the Frontiers planning, but never officially adopted. Or the official tag being "Invader" but everyone using the term "Raider" instead.

If a tag serves no purpose it is removed. That applied to both the Founderless and Sinker tags, as it has applied to others we've removed in the past.

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Sedgistan
Site Director
 
Posts: 35460
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Tue Feb 27, 2024 7:24 am

Okay, we have had another chat on it and have decided to make everyone happy by retiring the term "Catcher" and replacing it with "Sinker" for the Rejected Realms only (and I guess any theoretical future regions of that type).

This will involve both the tag being changed, which I can do now, and replacing the term at the top of the region, which will take a little longer.

This change is easier to do now than it was a couple of years ago, as the Restorers have moved on from the term Sinker, and we're no longer trying to King Solomon the term between two groups that are used to being identified by it.

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Reventus Koth
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Reventus Koth » Tue Feb 27, 2024 7:33 am

This is...better. I appreciate that a word originally created to explicitly describe TRR does so once again, and it's certainly better than nothing. The "restorers" still absolutely identify as sinkers though. Suppose I'll take what I can get at this point.
Formerly known as Ambroscus Koth, +1843 posts. Trust no one.
Xanthal wrote:Only raiders can win in this war- a defender can keep them from winning one region, one update at a time, but there will always be the next region, the next update, and the next, forever.

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MANS0N
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Posts: 52
Founded: Mar 28, 2023
Anarchy

Postby MANS0N » Tue Feb 27, 2024 7:55 am

I’m supportive of TRR losing the catcher tag but it’s still devastating imo that the other 3 historical Sinkers have been stripped of their identity and given those dumb tags. It’s whatever though.

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Mad Jack Is Rejected
Secretary
 
Posts: 27
Founded: Aug 31, 2021
New York Times Democracy

Postby Mad Jack Is Rejected » Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:13 am

I'd like to thank the mod/admin team for showing they're able to take a step back and see that there are better ways of doing things.

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Bormiar
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Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:39 am

Yay! Thanks Sedge + Staff.
Last edited by Bormiar on Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Liberza
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Founded: May 05, 2022
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Liberza » Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:34 pm

Nice
Liberza is a bicameral parliamentary, monarchist nation set in Germany, currently led by democratic socialist Malik Simoneit. The year is 2096. EST. 1949.
hi im a dumbass and i like doing dumbass things, wanna talk about sports?
Live free or die
World Map, World History

/reserved DEFINITION:
To reserve a post as to prevent being ninja’d. This is especially useful for having posts that may take effort or a good portion of time to make, as there is a greater chance of such things being ninja’d than a slash and a word. Only practical in some threads compared to others. The idea is to put /reserved first and edit it once you have a proper answer. As such, you are not ninja’d. BN will do you as long as you eventually edit your /reserved into a proper post.

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