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Is God, the Cause of All Causes In The Universe?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Is God the cause of all causes in the universe?

Yes.
69
39%
No. There are more than one God.
7
4%
No. There is no evidence for the existence of the God hypothesis or any other gods.
86
49%
No. I'm pantheist.
13
7%
 
Total votes : 175

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Jolthig
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Is God, the Cause of All Causes In The Universe?

Postby Jolthig » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:23 pm

Is God the cause of all causes in the universe?

I was watching a video tonight by the Ahmadiyya magazine, The Review of Religions, and they have a project known as The Existence Project, tackling arguments by atheist writers if God truly exists or not.

In the video, Imam Sahabat Ali, the man in charge of the Existence Project, held some discussions with atheists at a university campus. He argued that everything in the universe has a cause. He specifically pointed out to cosmic microwave radiation, gamma ray radiation, and other forces of the universe in being ran and caused by something invisible. I believe he may have indirectly referred to the hypothesis of dark matter as well, and furthermore, he continued to climb up the ladder in determining the invisible force known as the Cause of All Causes. He argued, that the cause is therefore God himself and the reason being that, he argued, the cause of all causes could only eventually become invisible because there is a limit.

When being challenged on how to interact with the Supreme Being, Ali responded that prayer is the only way to interact, and that it will get one to whether or not God really does truly exist, basically in essence, saying the scientific method should be used in this area.

Here is the link to the video for those who have time to watch: https://youtu.be/GkTkSyO2DcM?si=SWdKq0lHAPUsuoec

So now, the question is, is God the cause of all causes in the universe? Or is it something else? Could it be more than one God, or something like dark matter holding the universe together? Discuss.

My answer is pretty obvious. We should not exist at all, technically speaking, and yet, here we are, and I think all of us have that desire within us to search for truer meaning in life. I personally think that ultimate meaning is God, given our history of both the world and universe.
Last edited by Jolthig on Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:32 pm

Look at it this way: If 'God' is the Cause of all the things, then all the things are their fault.
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Nyoskova
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Postby Nyoskova » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:34 pm

I’m a pantheist.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:35 pm

Nyoskova wrote:I’m a pantheist.

Added.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:37 pm

Godular wrote:Look at it this way: If 'God' is the Cause of all the things, then all the things are their fault.

If that is so, what exactly is a fault? How would one define a fault?
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The Aswaltican Imperium
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Postby The Aswaltican Imperium » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:38 pm

Godular wrote:Look at it this way: If 'God' is the Cause of all the things, then all the things are their fault.


Correct! In Christianity, many people actually use it as motivation through their struggles. God (Hallowed be thy name) is omnipotent. He doesn’t say all Christians will live a life free of suffering, and in fact suggests they will face more challenges than the atheists.

If God never put suffering into the world, Jesus Christ, The Messiah would have not been able to pay for the world’s sins

And even if that was not the case, not having suffering would mean people would only worship him because of the worldly joy. At least most people.
Last edited by The Aswaltican Imperium on Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John 13:19, Jesus said, “Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

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Order of Maesters
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Postby Order of Maesters » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:40 pm

This is just the cousin of the God of the Gaps fallacy
Last edited by Order of Maesters on Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Aswaltican Imperium
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Postby The Aswaltican Imperium » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:42 pm

Order of Maesters wrote:This just the cousin of the God of the Gaps fallacy



If it was true, then what really caused the many photographed miracles and Maryan apparitions?
John 13:19, Jesus said, “Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

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Godular
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Postby Godular » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:42 pm

The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Godular wrote:Look at it this way: If 'God' is the Cause of all the things, then all the things are their fault.


Correct! In Christianity, many people actually use it as motivation through their struggles. God (Hallowed be thy name) is omnipotent. He doesn’t say all Christians will live a life free of suffering, and in fact suggests they will face more challenges than the atheists.

If God never put suffering into the world, Jesus Christ, The Messiah would have not been able to pay for the world’s sins

And even if, that means people would only worship him because of the worldly joy.


By extension, Sin is God's fault too.

The point is that if God is the cause of all the things, then all these things that are bad are caused by God and thus cannot be the fault of us 'little people'. As such, why should we need forgiveness?
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:47 pm

Here's the problem.

There has been a lot of shit that we had no idea what was causing it. Popular first guesses on all of those was a god or god. But then we found out the sun rose not because two gods were playing catch with a fireball but that we're on a ball spinning around a fire ball. Crops didn't succeed or fail because of sacrificed goats to a god but soil and weather conditions.

In the vast history of shit we didn't know that we now know, divinity is batting zero. Not once in the thousands of times we've figured out how something works or what causes it has divinity ended up the answer.

So hoping that god will be at the beginning of the chain feels like "This time for sure..."
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Jolthig
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:47 pm

The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Godular wrote:Look at it this way: If 'God' is the Cause of all the things, then all the things are their fault.


Correct! In Christianity, many people actually use it as motivation through their struggles. God (Hallowed be thy name) is omnipotent. He doesn’t say all Christians will live a life free of suffering, and in fact suggests they will face more challenges than the atheists.

If God never put suffering into the world, Jesus Christ, The Messiah would have not been able to pay for the world’s sins

And even if that was not the case, not having suffering would mean people would only worship him because of the worldly joy. At least most people.

As a Muslim, I do not agree with the doctrine of original sin and Islam says all sin is environmental being that all humans are born pure. It is only their environment that corrupts them.

Thus, no sacrifice needed. All are responsible for their own sins and their own self-reformation with the help of God.
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Order of Maesters
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Postby Order of Maesters » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:47 pm

The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Order of Maesters wrote:This just the cousin of the God of the Gaps fallacy



If it was true, then what really caused the many photographed miracles and Maryan apparitions?


I'm aquiver with anticipation to see links to these "photographed" miracles.
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The Aswaltican Imperium
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Postby The Aswaltican Imperium » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:48 pm

Godular wrote:
The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Correct! In Christianity, many people actually use it as motivation through their struggles. God (Hallowed be thy name) is omnipotent. He doesn’t say all Christians will live a life free of suffering, and in fact suggests they will face more challenges than the atheists.

If God never put suffering into the world, Jesus Christ, The Messiah would have not been able to pay for the world’s sins

And even if, that means people would only worship him because of the worldly joy.


By extension, Sin is God's fault too.

The point is that if God is the cause of all the things, then all these things that are bad are caused by God and thus cannot be the fault of us 'little people'. As such, why should we need forgiveness?



This is not the case. God is all knowing, but he isn’t what guides people to sin. Satan is. But Satan (Lucifer) was once an angel made by God, so that is a defense against your argument.

This is very easily to debunk if you read Genesis, where Satan lead the humans to commit the first sin. If you for example use his name in vain right now, it is your choice. He just knows when you are going to do it. We need forgiveness because all has sinned as said in The Holy Bible, and that is because sin is from Lucifer (Satan). God is not at fault for this because it was Lucifer’s choice to rebel.
John 13:19, Jesus said, “Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:50 pm

No. What I am promoting is not a logical fallacy, and while many things have been discovered that have continuously disproved our erroneous way of thinking of the past, can we (or have we) disprove(d) infinity?
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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:51 pm

This is just kicking the can down the road and then pretending that there is no more can. If God caused everything, what caused God? If God doesn't need a cause, why does whatever you're invoking God for need one? If what you're invoking God for actually needs a cause, what makes you think that cause is God?

As Ctoan points out, historically, every time we've figured out what caused something that people claimed that God did, it's turned out to be something that wasn't God.
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The Aswaltican Imperium
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Postby The Aswaltican Imperium » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:51 pm

Order of Maesters wrote:
The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:

If it was true, then what really caused the many photographed miracles and Maryan apparitions?


I'm aquiver with anticipation to see links to these "photographed" miracles.



Image

Image

Zeitoun. April 2 1968.
John 13:19, Jesus said, “Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

FT, NS stats are not canon unless in MT RPs.

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The Aswaltican Imperium
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Postby The Aswaltican Imperium » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:53 pm

Eahland wrote:This is just kicking the can down the road and then pretending that there is no more can. If God caused everything, what caused God? If God doesn't need a cause, why does whatever you're invoking God for need one? If what you're invoking God for actually needs a cause, what makes you think that cause is God?

As Ctoan points out, historically, every time we've figured out what caused something that people claimed that God did, it's turned out to be something that wasn't God.



In the beginning, HE was. Maybe read the Bible?
John 13:19, Jesus said, “Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

FT, NS stats are not canon unless in MT RPs.

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Order of Maesters
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Postby Order of Maesters » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:53 pm

The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Order of Maesters wrote:
I'm aquiver with anticipation to see links to these "photographed" miracles.



Image

Image

Zeitoun. April 2 1968.

Oh goodie, a washed out black and white photograph of a church wherein some hazy shape may or may not be divine intervention.

If you believe these, I have one really great one from a certain Loch in Scotland that's going to blow your mind.
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Order of Maesters
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Postby Order of Maesters » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:54 pm

The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Eahland wrote:This is just kicking the can down the road and then pretending that there is no more can. If God caused everything, what caused God? If God doesn't need a cause, why does whatever you're invoking God for need one? If what you're invoking God for actually needs a cause, what makes you think that cause is God?

As Ctoan points out, historically, every time we've figured out what caused something that people claimed that God did, it's turned out to be something that wasn't God.



In the beginning, HE was. Maybe read the Bible?

Who created God?

If HE can be eternal, why can the Universe not be, in a constantly expanding and contracting process of creation and destruction?
Call me Maesters
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Sit down, shut up, and please reflect on your priorities.
If you say something dumb, I will call you out mercilessly. I expect the same courtesy in return.

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The Aswaltican Imperium
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Aswaltican Imperium » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:54 pm

Order of Maesters wrote:
The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:

Image

Image

Zeitoun. April 2 1968.

Oh goodie, a washed out black and white photograph of a church wherein some hazy shape may or may not be divine intervention.

If you believe these, I have one really great one from a certain Loch in Scotland that's going to blow your mind.


It was witnessed by many people, so it wouldn’t have been a hallucination

And please give me a photo of that Loch in Scotland
John 13:19, Jesus said, “Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:54 pm

Jolthig wrote:No. What I am promoting is not a logical fallacy, and while many things have been discovered that have continuously disproved our erroneous way of thinking of the past, can we (or have we) disprove(d) infinity?

Come up with a better reason than 'what if?'
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Terra Magnifica Gloria
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Postby Terra Magnifica Gloria » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:54 pm

I’m scientific-agnostic. This means I don’t deny or accept the existence of a higher power unless it is scientifically proven or disproven (which it isn’t either way).
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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:55 pm

The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Eahland wrote:This is just kicking the can down the road and then pretending that there is no more can. If God caused everything, what caused God? If God doesn't need a cause, why does whatever you're invoking God for need one? If what you're invoking God for actually needs a cause, what makes you think that cause is God?

As Ctoan points out, historically, every time we've figured out what caused something that people claimed that God did, it's turned out to be something that wasn't God.



In the beginning, HE was. Maybe read the Bible?

I have, along with a lot of much better fantasy fiction.
Eahlisc Wordboc (Glossary)
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The Aswaltican Imperium
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Aswaltican Imperium » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:55 pm

Order of Maesters wrote:
The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:

In the beginning, HE was. Maybe read the Bible?

Who created God?

If HE can be eternal, why can the Universe not be, in a constantly expanding and contracting process of creation and destruction?


He created himself, he was before time.

It is not because that is not how he made it to be
John 13:19, Jesus said, “Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.”

FT, NS stats are not canon unless in MT RPs.

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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:56 pm

The Aswaltican Imperium wrote:
Godular wrote:
By extension, Sin is God's fault too.

The point is that if God is the cause of all the things, then all these things that are bad are caused by God and thus cannot be the fault of us 'little people'. As such, why should we need forgiveness?



This is not the case.


Yes it is.

God is all knowing, but he isn’t what guides people to sin.


Yes he is.

Satan is. But Satan (Lucifer) was once an angel made by God, so that is a defense against your argument.


And Satan still serves God. Satan cannot act without God's permission.

This is very easily to debunk if you read Genesis, where Satan lead the humans to commit the first sin. If you for example use his name in vain right now, it is your choice. He just knows when you are going to do it. We need forgiveness because all has sinned as said in The Holy Bible, and that is because sin is from Lucifer (Satan). God is not at fault for this because it was Lucifer’s choice to rebel.


If God made everything, and knows everything that happens right now, then they know what WILL happen as well. If one knows perfectly where every atom and quark in the universe is, then there is no way that they cannot know what will happen next. To one who knows everything that is, there is no such thing as randomness. If they created the universe, then all suffering in the universe is their fault.

If God created the universe and knows everything that is, there is no free will. Satan was made to rebel and was punished for what God made him do. If God punishes people for things that are not their fault, then they are not a benevolent deity.
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