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Ahmadiyya Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do you think of Ahmadiyya?

I am an Ahmadi and this movement is truthful
3
12%
I am a Muslim, but this community has false theology
5
19%
I am religious, but your community is false
7
27%
I am atheist. All religion are false.
5
19%
Other
6
23%
 
Total votes : 26

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Jolthig
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Ahmadiyya Discussion Thread

Postby Jolthig » Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:52 pm

As the title says, this is a discussion about the minority sect in Islam known as the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Poll is theology related btw and not necessarily on the doings of the community.

I've been Ahmadi Muslim for around 7 years, and I have been preaching the Islamic faith according to the Ahmadiyya interpretation ever since, and yet, I never made a thread that fully expressed my views or rather the views of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, itself, and I feel now is that time, especially given that there have been threads that are related to some of the megathreads in here, but it seems the rules are relaxed. Hence, the reason for why I haven't made an Ahmadi thread for the past 7 years.

Nonetheless, I'll give an introduction to this community: The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community was founded on March 12, 1889 by an Indian Islamic preacher by the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He claimed to be the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi and made his claims in the year of 1891, and that Jesus passed away a natural death and that he will not physically come back a second time. Rather, he was the Jesus to come in the latter days in a metaphorical sense just as John the Baptist was Elijah who was to come before the arrival of the first messiah. Because of this he claimed to be the one that fulfilled the prophecy in hadith about "breaking the cross" (meaning, debunking Christianity, especially its doctrines of the Trinity, original sin, and Christ's sacrifice on the cross). He claimed to the be that messianic figure that was prophesized by the prophets and founders of all major religions that was destined to come in the latter days, and he claimed to be that fulfilment.

Before his claim, he wrote a 4-volume book titled, Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya (Proofs of Ahmad) (and 23 years later he wrote a 5th volume). This book was written with the intention to defend the character and prophethood of Muhammad, the founder of Islam during a time in Indian history where a significant portion of the Muslim population were converting to Christianity, Hinduism, or a deistic Hindu sect known as the Arya Samajh. With the publication of this book, it was well received by the Muslim scholars and critics of Islam scrambled to write responses to the book.

After the founding of Ahmadiyya and his claim to messiahship a couple years later, he famously debated the ex-Muslim and Christian missionary, Abdullah Atham on whether or not Muhammad was a prophet and whether or not Islam or Christianity is the true religion. This is recorded in a book known as Holy War that records both sides of the debate.

Meanwhile, most of the Muslim scholars wrote edicts of takfir (declaring someone to be non-Muslim on someone who claims to be Muslim) and they were led by Nazir Hussain Dehlvi and Muhammad Hussein Batalvi, thus starting persecution of the Ahmadiyya. Those who opposed Ahmadiyya from among the Muslims were incited. Still, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad would debate with these scholars through his works.

While he debated all sides, he also engaged in prayer contests with all who opposed him to prove which side God was with and he claimed to be victorious in all.

During the solar and lunar eclipses of 1894, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad pointed to prophecies in Quran, hadith, Bible, and other books as proof of his claim.

He passed away in May of 1908 and was succeeded by Hakin Noor-ud-deen as the first Caliph of Ahmadiyya, who then passed away 5 years later to be succeeded by Mirza Bashir-ud-deen Mahmood Ahmad, Ghulam Ahmad's son. Bashir-ud-deen expanded the structure of the organization of the Ahmadiyya Movement by adding in several auxiliaries such as the Ansar (Helpers in Arabic) but for elder men over the age of 40, the Khuddam (servants) for youthful men (15-40), the Atfal (Children under 15), the Lajna (the ladies auxiliary for women over 15), and the Nusrat (girls under 15). He established numerous financial schemes to help fund the Community, and he greatly expanded the outreach to numerous Western countries, establishing one of Britain's first mosques in 1924, the Al-Fazl Masjid in London. He did numerous other things before passing away in 1965, to be succeeded by his son, Mirza Nasir Ahmad, who in turn passed away in 1982, to be succeeded by his brother, Mirza Tahir Ahmad who is famous for establishing MTA International (Muslim Television Ahmadiyya), the first Muslim satellite broadcast network to propagate Islam through the Ahmadiyya interpretation, and Humanity First, a charity organization established in 1994 with the intention of serving humanity. They feed the poor and needy in poor countries, and provide disaster relief to nations suffering in disaster. Mirza Tahir Ahmad passed away in 2003, and was succeeded by his cousin, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, who is the current caliph of Ahmadiyya.

Ahmadiyya are also heavily persecuted in several Muslim nations for their beliefs, especially Pakistan where they are considered a religious minority by the second amendment of their constitution. Minority in this context means, non-Muslim.

Ahmadis are also persecuted in Algeria, and Palestine.

The Community is established in over 200 countries (including nations that aren't recognized by the UN and tribal kingdoms in Africa), thus why it's 200.

We pray just as other Muslims do, and we are technically Sunnis because we recognize Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman as Caliphs. Just like other Muslims, we pray five times a day, fast in Ramadan, refrain from eating pork or drinking alcohol, we value Quran and Hadith like Bukhari and Muslim. Where we differ with other Muslims is simply the identity of the Messiah to come in the latter days.

I'll expand a bit on how Jesus passed away a natural death. Contrary to other Muslims, we don't believe Jesus was taken to heaven before the Pharisees captured him. We believe that they did in fact capture him and put him on the cross, but that he survived. We ascribe to the swoon theory. How he survived was that he was given a potent ointment known as the Ointment of the Apostles and he was healed from his grevious wounds. After he bid his disciples farewell, he traveled on foot to Persia and then to Afghanistan and Kashmir to preach to the lost ten tribes of Israel before passing away at the age of 120. There is a tomb in Kashmir known as Yuz Asif, and the Ahmadiyya claim it is the tomb of Jesus.

The Ahmadiyya are also working on sending people to various fields of research to help out the world in progressing.

For more information on Ahmadiyya, you can check out:

1. Alislam.org
2. AhmadiPedia
3. Ahmadi Answers (not an official Ahmadiyya Muslim Community website, but a website ran by my friend who is a good preacher and debater)
4. Humanity First
5. Al Hakam Magazine
6. Review Of Religions Magazine
The Existence Project: A part of the review of religions magazines that tackles tough questions by atheists.


So basically all of this, is just a summary of Ahmadiyya, and to avoid this beinf looked like a blog post, I intend to start a discussion on this community. If any non-Ahmadi Muslim, Christian, atheist, or anyone wants to challenge my beliefs or has questions, feel free.

Or if anyone wants to discuss persecution of Ahmadis, there's that too.

So I'll start the discussion. What do you think of the Ahmadiyya? Is it truthful theology? Or just another sect made by an apparent madman?

Do they do good things or are their achievements greatly exaggerated? I think all of you know my answer to this given that I've been preaching the views of this community for 7 years. There's no need for me to express my views except what was noted above as well as the intention to fully express my views.

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has benefitted me greatly, and gave me an identity and a spirituality that I can practice while also knowing it's logical and consistent with reality. It changed me from a young boy who's life was becoming a mess to someone with order. You can see the difference in my posts before November 2016 and after on NationStates.

Additionally, I can believe in Allah and Islam and also believe in evolution (albeit theological) in contrast to those that reject it, and they support science and justice for everyone, hence the motto, "Love For All, Hatred For None".

I have nothing but love for the theology and practices of the Ahmadiyya.
Last edited by Jolthig on Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:00 pm

One thing I forgot to mention in the OP was our view on the Seal of Prophethood of Muhammad, which is another source of contention many Muslims have with Ahmadiyya: We believe in the Seal of Prophethood of Muhammad just as everyone else does. The Messiah coming and being a prophet does not break this because it is mentioned in Sahib Muslim that Jesus will be a prophet (4 times the Messiah is called this).

As stated, we differ on the identity of the Messiah but the roles of the Messiah are the same.

And how prophethood works after the Seal of Prophethood, it's basically a concept known as buruz (reflection), and zill (shadow or projection), so basically Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a projection of Muhammad in that it was as if Muhammad has come a second time (this fulfills the hadith of the Imam Mahdi being named Muhammad, which is also metaphorical).
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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:34 pm

...TIL there is an actual IRL organization called Humanity First. I used the name for a human supremacist terrorist group in my canon lmao
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:35 pm

A m e n r i a wrote:...TIL there is an actual IRL organization called Humanity First. I used the name for a human supremacist terrorist group in my canon lmao

:lol:

That's funny.
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Kunskil
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Postby Kunskil » Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:52 pm

Dont you guys find it wierd that a person 1000 years after Prophert Muhhamad declared that he was the Messiah? How are you guys muslims if you belive in a different Messiah?
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:58 pm

Kunskil wrote:Dont you guys find it wierd that a person 1000 years after Prophert Muhhamad declared that he was the Messiah? How are you guys muslims if you belive in a different Messiah?

I have answered it in the OP
Basically, he was Jesus to come in latter days, albeit in a metaphorical sense.

Like how Jesus (as) came 1400 years after Moses (as), same with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) 1400 years after Muhammad (saw).

The reason the actual Jesus cannot return is because the Quran declared him as having passed away. (5:118, 5:76, 3:56)
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Tue Dec 05, 2023 6:26 pm

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Unogonduria
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Postby Unogonduria » Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:54 am

So Jesus Christ of Nazareth is not even a messiah in Ahmadiyyan theology?
I love Jesus.
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Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End"

Mark 14:61-62 "But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:59 am

Unogonduria wrote:So Jesus Christ of Nazareth is not even a messiah in Ahmadiyyan theology?

Nope.

He was only the Messiah sent to the Jews while the second Messiah would be sent to the Muslims who be in the likeness of Jesus. Similar to how John the Baptist was to Elijah, being his metaphorical second coming.
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Shangjunshu
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Postby Shangjunshu » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:15 am

I respect random Indian cults claiming Muslim legitimacy more than I do Islam anyway.

I had no choice but to select other.
Last edited by Shangjunshu on Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unogonduria
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Postby Unogonduria » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:20 am

Jolthig wrote:
Unogonduria wrote:So Jesus Christ of Nazareth is not even a messiah in Ahmadiyyan theology?

Nope.

He was only the Messiah sent to the Jews while the second Messiah would be sent to the Muslims who be in the likeness of Jesus. Similar to how John the Baptist was to Elijah, being his metaphorical second coming.

Then what is a Messiah?
I love Jesus.
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Zechariah 2:10-11 "“Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the Lord. 11 “Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you."

Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End"

Mark 14:61-62 "But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”"

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:31 am

Unogonduria wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Nope.

He was only the Messiah sent to the Jews while the second Messiah would be sent to the Muslims who be in the likeness of Jesus. Similar to how John the Baptist was to Elijah, being his metaphorical second coming.

Then what is a Messiah?

So basically according to Islamic theology (especially in Ahmadiyya), a Messiah, is the figure that is to show the Christians that the doctrine of sacrifice to stone sins, original sin, and the Trinity are false and that that Islam is the true religion.

While Mahdi, is the role for that very same person (although most Muslims believe Messiah and Mahdi are two separate people. We believe they're two roles of the same individual) that is to guide the Muslims back to the Quran when they are most astray.

Shangjunshu wrote:I respect random Indian cults claiming Muslim legitimacy more than I do Islam anyway.

I had no choice but to select other.

Well, Ahmadiyya isn't really a cult.

But we do claim to be the true Islam because of the claims of our founder.
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Shangjunshu
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Postby Shangjunshu » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:34 am

Jolthig wrote:But we do claim to be the true Islam because of the claims of our founder.

I am beginning to understand the persecution.

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:36 am

Shangjunshu wrote:
Jolthig wrote:But we do claim to be the true Islam because of the claims of our founder.

I am beginning to understand the persecution.

Yup. When someone calls to be Messiah in 1891, that'll do that.

And the fact many Muslims, especially in Pakistan, indoctrinated by Zia-ul-Haqq's programs in the 1980s, that'll do that as well.
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Kunskil
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Postby Kunskil » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:41 am

I am really starting to feel like you guys are a cult. I mean the messiah in 1891? How is that a sect of islam?
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:44 am

Kunskil wrote:I am really starting to feel like you guys are a cult. I mean the messiah in 1891? How is that a sect of islam?

How does that make one a cult?
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:46 am

Bit of a strange poll imo. I don't think Ahmad was the Messiah (I don't believe in any messiahs or second comings, they all pretty clearly seem to be false to me) but I don't think that inherently means I think Ahmadiyya as a community is false.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:46 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Bit of a strange poll imo. I don't think Ahmad was the Messiah (I don't believe in any messiahs or second comings, they all pretty clearly seem to be false to me) but I don't think that inherently means I think Ahmadiyya as a community is false.

Yeah, I intended the poll as a theology related....not necessarily on the doings of the community itself.
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Postby Yarkuo » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:47 am

Unogonduria wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Nope.

He was only the Messiah sent to the Jews while the second Messiah would be sent to the Muslims who be in the likeness of Jesus. Similar to how John the Baptist was to Elijah, being his metaphorical second coming.

Then what is a Messiah?


The Messiah is a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during a Messianic Age and world to come.

In my opinion.
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Kunskil
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Postby Kunskil » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:52 am

Jolthig wrote:
Kunskil wrote:I am really starting to feel like you guys are a cult. I mean the messiah in 1891? How is that a sect of islam?

How does that make one a cult?

Ok imagine you were still in your very christian fase and looked at Ahmadiyya. You would see islam with another prophert from British india! I mean someone cannot just claim to be a prophert! Plus Muhhamad is supose to be the last prophert of Allah.
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Galmat
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Postby Galmat » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:52 am

Theologically, I believe there are inner and outer messiahs; it's not solely a singular standalone one messiah to me.
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Postby Repreteop » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:56 am

Kunskil wrote:
Jolthig wrote:How does that make one a cult?

Ok imagine you were still in your very christian fase and looked at Ahmadiyya. You would see islam with another prophert from British india! I mean someone cannot just claim to be a prophert! Plus Muhhamad is supose to be the last prophert of Allah.


Ahmadis are Muslim, they read virtually the same Quran as everyone else, and they are very serious in their faith. I don't personally think I'd be one, since I'm Jewish, but they tend to be pretty nice.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:07 am

Kunskil wrote:
Jolthig wrote:How does that make one a cult?

Ok imagine you were still in your very christian fase and looked at Ahmadiyya. You would see islam with another prophert from British india! I mean someone cannot just claim to be a prophert! Plus Muhhamad is supose to be the last prophert of Allah.

We believe that Muhammad was the last prophet just as the other Muslims do, and while his claim may appear contradictory at first, a close look at Quranic prophecies and hadith prophecies shows, his claim is completely in line with Islamic theology.

There is a hadith in Sahih Muslim that calls the Messiah "prophet" 4 times and that the Messiah will receive revelation from Allah.

Moreover in Surah al-Jummah 62:2-3, Muhammad (saw) is described as coming to other people who have not yet joined them and he said in a hadith that it refers to a Persian man who will bring Islam back in the latter days, alluding to the Imam Mahdi indirectly as the Mahdi is prophesized to also be named Muhammad basically his metaphorical second coming

So thus Messiah and Mahdi; Jesus and Muhammad metaphorically.

In essence, the Mahdi will be a mirror/projection of the prophet Muhammad and that's why Mirza Ghulam Ahmad made his claims.
Last edited by Jolthig on Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shangjunshu
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Postby Shangjunshu » Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:18 am

Kunskil wrote:Ok imagine you were still in your very christian fase and looked at Ahmadiyya. You would see islam with another prophert from British india! I mean someone cannot just claim to be a prophert! Plus Muhhamad is supose to be the last prophert of Allah.

Maybe this guy does it better.

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:10 pm

Galmat wrote:Theologically, I believe there are inner and outer messiahs; it's not solely a singular standalone one messiah to me.

Interesting. So what are Messiahs in your beliefs?
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