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Was Muhammad really a good person?

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Valles Marineris Mining co
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Was Muhammad really a good person?

Postby Valles Marineris Mining co » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:30 pm

This is a touchy subject due to it being about religion, so before we start I need to clarify some things

I personally am a Deist, I believe god created the world during the Big Bang and then left the universe to its own devices, I have nothing against Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or any other religion. This topic is not meant to attack Islam in any way.

The topic at hand: Was Muhammad really a good person?

Now I have not read the Quran, so I am not educated on the subject, however I do know that the Quran says that Muhammad was a man who possessed the highest moral excellence, and that Allah made him an example or a "moral model" for Muslims to follow.

However, Muhammad also had slaves, concubines, started a Jihad war and probably killed people during that war, and also the controversy of one of his wives, Aisha, who was 9 years old.
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Laasmistan
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Postby Laasmistan » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:32 pm

Firstly, he did not actually have a child bride. This has been debunked by both secular academia and many religious scholars as well. Here's an article just scratching the surface of this.

https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-s ... aZHhjX0tIE
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Postby A m e n r i a » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:36 pm

He is our last prophet. He's not just a good person, he's the model human. The pinnacle of morality, even though he himself isn't exactly 100% morally perfect (it's impossible. See Abasa for the one time God scolded him).
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Postby Vionna-Frankenlisch » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:37 pm

I am not a Muslim and my knowledge of the Prophet's life is limited, having only studied the subject briefly. My only comment is that I wonder what the point of creating this thread was. I hope I am wrong in this case but, in my experience, these threads are created merely to stir up controversy and inflame Islamists. In my humble opinion, if the creator of this thread really wishes to learn more, NationStates is probably not the forum.
Last edited by Vionna-Frankenlisch on Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Laasmistan » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:38 pm

Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:I am not a Muslim and my knowledge of the Prophet's life is limited, having only studied the subject briefly. My only comment is that I wonder what the point of creating this thread was. I hope I am wrong in this case but, in my experience, these threads are created merely to stir up controversy and inflame Islamists. In my humble opinion, if the creator of this thread really wishes to learn more, NationStates is probably not the forum.


Yea, that's usually how it goes. It just gets everyone on both sides riled up.
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Postby Vionna-Frankenlisch » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:39 pm

Laasmistan wrote:
Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:I am not a Muslim and my knowledge of the Prophet's life is limited, having only studied the subject briefly. My only comment is that I wonder what the point of creating this thread was. I hope I am wrong in this case but, in my experience, these threads are created merely to stir up controversy and inflame Islamists. In my humble opinion, if the creator of this thread really wishes to learn more, NationStates is probably not the forum.


Yea, that's usually how it goes. It just gets everyone on both sides riled up.

I really hope I'm wrong because it is an interesting subject and bears discussion, even if it is uncomfortable. But it seems odd to me that someone's first port of call would be the NS forums rather than studying the opinions of scholars first.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:41 pm

He was a warlord in the 7th century and did all that entailed, he might not have been uniquely evil or anything but he wasn't a moral exemplar either.
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:44 pm

Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:My only comment is that I wonder what the point of creating this thread was. I hope I am wrong in this case but, in my experience, these threads are created merely to stir up controversy and inflame Islamists. In my humble opinion, if the creator of this thread really wishes to learn more, NationStates is probably not the forum.

Go with your instincts on this.
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Postby Valles Marineris Mining co » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:46 pm

Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:
Laasmistan wrote:
Yea, that's usually how it goes. It just gets everyone on both sides riled up.

I really hope I'm wrong because it is an interesting subject and bears discussion, even if it is uncomfortable. But it seems odd to me that someone's first port of call would be the NS forums rather than studying the opinions of scholars first.

No I am genuinely curious. I do not intend for an out of control arguement. I just wanna know what other people think of the subject.
Last edited by Valles Marineris Mining co on Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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“Free will is a myth, religion is a joke. We are all pawns controlled by something greater: Memes, the DNA of the soul. They shape our will. They are the culture. They are everything we pass on. Expose someone to anger long enough, they will learn to hate. They become a carrier. Envy, greed, despair; all memes, all passed along.” -Monsoon

“In wilds beyond they speak your name with reverence and regret,
For none could tame our savage souls yet you the challenge met,
Under palest watch, you taught, we changed, base instincts were redeemed,
A world you gave to bug and beast as they had never dreamed.“ -Monomon the Teacher

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Vionna-Frankenlisch
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Postby Vionna-Frankenlisch » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:48 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:He was a warlord in the 7th century and did all that entailed, he might not have been uniquely evil or anything but he wasn't a moral exemplar either.

I think that's helpful to note as a baseline. Even if one doesn't believe in the theological side of Muhammad's life, he was a figure of considerable historical note and his military exploits created both atrocities and acts of considerable mercy for the period.
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Postby Floofybit » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:49 pm

He had some decent qualities. Not the pinnacle of morality, that's Jesus, but I'm sure he wasn't too terrible.
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Postby Vionna-Frankenlisch » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:52 pm

Valles Marineris Mining co wrote:
Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:I really hope I'm wrong because it is an interesting subject and bears discussion, even if it is uncomfortable. But it seems odd to me that someone's first port of call would be the NS forums rather than studying the opinions of scholars first.

No I am genuinely curious. I do not intend for an out of control arguement. I just wanna know what other people think of the subject.

Personally, it's the first time I've engaged with a debate like this and purely because I've recently studied the subject out of a brief interest. That said, you have to understand that a debate like this draws people from both sides who are fiercely defensive of their views and beliefs. This isn't the first time the subject has been brought up and I hope you don't blame me for being suspicious. NS draws all types and some of those are fierce Islamists, and radical anti-Muslims too.
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Postby Valles Marineris Mining co » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:55 pm

Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:He was a warlord in the 7th century and did all that entailed, he might not have been uniquely evil or anything but he wasn't a moral exemplar either.

I think that's helpful to note as a baseline. Even if one doesn't believe in the theological side of Muhammad's life, he was a figure of considerable historical note and his military exploits created both atrocities and acts of considerable mercy for the period.

However Muhammad did have fairly progressive views on women for the time. In Islam’s early days women had much more rights comparatively to China or Europe.

Unfortunately today that is not the case, however that is due to hundreds of years of leaders using their religious authority as an excuse for their patriarchal actions.
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“Free will is a myth, religion is a joke. We are all pawns controlled by something greater: Memes, the DNA of the soul. They shape our will. They are the culture. They are everything we pass on. Expose someone to anger long enough, they will learn to hate. They become a carrier. Envy, greed, despair; all memes, all passed along.” -Monsoon

“In wilds beyond they speak your name with reverence and regret,
For none could tame our savage souls yet you the challenge met,
Under palest watch, you taught, we changed, base instincts were redeemed,
A world you gave to bug and beast as they had never dreamed.“ -Monomon the Teacher

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Postby Valles Marineris Mining co » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:56 pm

Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:
Valles Marineris Mining co wrote:No I am genuinely curious. I do not intend for an out of control arguement. I just wanna know what other people think of the subject.

Personally, it's the first time I've engaged with a debate like this and purely because I've recently studied the subject out of a brief interest. That said, you have to understand that a debate like this draws people from both sides who are fiercely defensive of their views and beliefs. This isn't the first time the subject has been brought up and I hope you don't blame me for being suspicious. NS draws all types and some of those are fierce Islamists, and radical anti-Muslims too.

I don’t blame you and that’s why I had the disclaimer in my first post.
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“Free will is a myth, religion is a joke. We are all pawns controlled by something greater: Memes, the DNA of the soul. They shape our will. They are the culture. They are everything we pass on. Expose someone to anger long enough, they will learn to hate. They become a carrier. Envy, greed, despair; all memes, all passed along.” -Monsoon

“In wilds beyond they speak your name with reverence and regret,
For none could tame our savage souls yet you the challenge met,
Under palest watch, you taught, we changed, base instincts were redeemed,
A world you gave to bug and beast as they had never dreamed.“ -Monomon the Teacher

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Postby ARIsyan- » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:59 pm

He was a god awful, horrible person whose delusions have caused the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people since the 700s. He used Islam as a way to spread a totalitarian, theocratic empire that is still wrecking havoc over the Middle East and North Africa to this very day. Also he was a pedophile.
Last edited by ARIsyan- on Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Vionna-Frankenlisch » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:59 pm

Valles Marineris Mining co wrote:
Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:I think that's helpful to note as a baseline. Even if one doesn't believe in the theological side of Muhammad's life, he was a figure of considerable historical note and his military exploits created both atrocities and acts of considerable mercy for the period.

However Muhammad did have fairly progressive views on women for the time. In Islam’s early days women had much more rights comparatively to China or Europe.

Unfortunately today that is not the case, however that is due to hundreds of years of leaders using their religious authority as an excuse for their patriarchal actions.

That's something I find very interesting. Unfortunately having not studied the Islamic leaders following Muhammad in much detail, I couldn't say where those attitudes have come from.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:02 pm

To what extent did he fight his battles with honor?

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Postby Valles Marineris Mining co » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:05 pm

Vionna-Frankenlisch wrote:
Valles Marineris Mining co wrote:However Muhammad did have fairly progressive views on women for the time. In Islam’s early days women had much more rights comparatively to China or Europe.

Unfortunately today that is not the case, however that is due to hundreds of years of leaders using their religious authority as an excuse for their patriarchal actions.

That's something I find very interesting. Unfortunately having not studied the Islamic leaders following Muhammad in much detail, I couldn't say where those attitudes have come from.

From what I have studied it mainly began to get bad around the Ottomans. The Mughals were mostly chill up until Akbar the great who was accepting of multiple religions, after that the Mughals kinda went the same way as the Ottomans and the Savafids.
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“Free will is a myth, religion is a joke. We are all pawns controlled by something greater: Memes, the DNA of the soul. They shape our will. They are the culture. They are everything we pass on. Expose someone to anger long enough, they will learn to hate. They become a carrier. Envy, greed, despair; all memes, all passed along.” -Monsoon

“In wilds beyond they speak your name with reverence and regret,
For none could tame our savage souls yet you the challenge met,
Under palest watch, you taught, we changed, base instincts were redeemed,
A world you gave to bug and beast as they had never dreamed.“ -Monomon the Teacher

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Postby Vikanias » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:12 pm

ARIsyan- wrote:He was a god awful, horrible person whose delusions have caused the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people since the 700s. He used Islam as a way to spread a totalitarian, theocratic empire that is still wrecking havoc over the Middle East and North Africa to this very day. Also he was a pedophile.


He was not a pedophile, in a article a previous poster mentioned, The Hadith which (I’m oversimplifying here) mentions Muhammad’s child marriage, was written a century after his death in the mid 700’s.

Say what you want about Muhhamad, but he certainly wasn’t a pedophile. He was a man of the time where he both did gods deeds while at the same committing atrocities.

Islam is certainly behind on human rights, but to say Muhammad was a pedo is a now disproven (probably) notion.
Last edited by Vikanias on Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Saiwana » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:18 pm

He wasn't from my perspective but I think it true that one person's hero is another's villain. That is what makes this conflict ridden world more beautiful, that people will essentially never agree on everything 100% and there is always a reason for war or fighting it out to assert who is more right temporarily.

Ho Chi Minh for example, is revered in Vietnam but was denigrated by the USMC drill instructor from Full Metal Jacket. His actions were zero sum, so naturally one side will hate him while the other side will praise him.
Last edited by Saiwana on Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Valles Marineris Mining co » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:20 pm

Vikanias wrote:
ARIsyan- wrote:He was a god awful, horrible person whose delusions have caused the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people since the 700s. He used Islam as a way to spread a totalitarian, theocratic empire that is still wrecking havoc over the Middle East and North Africa to this very day. Also he was a pedophile.


He was not a pedophile, in a article a previous poster mentioned, The Hadith which (I’m oversimplifying here) mentions Muhammad’s child marriage, was written a century after his death in the mid 700’s.

Say what you want about Muhhamad, but he certainly wasn’t a pedophile. He was a man of the time where he both did gods deeds while at the same committing atrocities.

Islam is certainly behind on human rights, but to say Muhammad was a pedo is a now disproven (probably) notion.

Most of the Hadiths seem to be taken out of context, that’s probabaly where the whole Aisha thing started. Some Muslims don’t even consider the Hadith canon.
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“Free will is a myth, religion is a joke. We are all pawns controlled by something greater: Memes, the DNA of the soul. They shape our will. They are the culture. They are everything we pass on. Expose someone to anger long enough, they will learn to hate. They become a carrier. Envy, greed, despair; all memes, all passed along.” -Monsoon

“In wilds beyond they speak your name with reverence and regret,
For none could tame our savage souls yet you the challenge met,
Under palest watch, you taught, we changed, base instincts were redeemed,
A world you gave to bug and beast as they had never dreamed.“ -Monomon the Teacher

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Laasmistan
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Postby Laasmistan » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:27 pm

ARIsyan- wrote:He was a god awful, horrible person whose delusions have caused the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people since the 700s. He used Islam as a way to spread a totalitarian, theocratic empire that is still wrecking havoc over the Middle East and North Africa to this very day. Also he was a pedophile.


He wasn't a pedo. Read my very first post, the one underneath the OP.
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:33 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:He was a warlord in the 7th century and did all that entailed, he might not have been uniquely evil or anything but he wasn't a moral exemplar either.

This

An Arab warlord using religion to build an empire, I guess the Saudis followed in his footsteps even if it's not as big.
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Postby The Mandela County » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:39 pm

ARIsyan- wrote:He was a god awful, horrible person whose delusions have caused the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people since the 700s. He used Islam as a way to spread a totalitarian, theocratic empire that is still wrecking havoc over the Middle East and North Africa to this very day. Also he was a pedophile.

the pedophile part has been debunked several times
and for the time period, islam was fairly progressive
just it was slowly corrupted by bullshit leaders

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New Westmore
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Postby New Westmore » Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:40 pm

I believe Muhammad was a good person, at least for his time anyway. The idea of good is not something we can easily universally define; people have different ideas of what is good and culture changes the idea of good from one to another. Maybe in the modern age, if he existed as a real person like the rest of us, he'd be seen as evil since there are allegations of him being a pedo and the fact that he may or not have been a warlord as a historical figure, but I wouldn't know. If it is of any merit though, I would argue that if Muhammad was a really bad person he wouldn't probably be a respected figure in Islam, since most monotheistic religions advocate for goodwill and not to espouse evil.
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