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[DEFEATED] Commend East Malaysia

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.
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Aivintis
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[DEFEATED] Commend East Malaysia

Postby Aivintis » Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:55 pm

East Malaysia is the oldest active member of The East Pacific. Founded in 2004, EM quickly got to work becoming a citizen of TEP, joining both its RP and regional government.

Serving in various roles in the legislature and judiciary of Old TEP, his work was largely administrative, with little chance to prove himself, until 2008, when The Empire invaded The East Pacific and took the region hostage. EM, as the lead negotiator, fought to keep peace talks alive, but soon concluded that the legitimate government of TEP would get no fair compromise, and advocated for taking it back.

After the legitimate government was restored, EM became an Elder, one of three leaders of TEP's legitimate government whose duties mainly involved overseeing the transition from the old Charter system to the Concordat and the current East Pacifican government. Under this Concordat, EM continued to shine. In IC and OOC roles, EM became a pillar of our community, a constant across the years, a dinosaur relic of an old age that still kept up with modern politics and RP and never "retired" or moved too far into the shadows.

His lasting commitment has given us great things, some of which can be included in the commendation, but others of which include a Moderation structure reform and a new forum. I hope I have done him justice in this draft. If I have not, I wish to make it better. But I firmly believe any failure of this commendation is a failure of my own. I think EM is one of the most commendable people in TEP. If it's not clear by this, then I have failed, but he has not.

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Commend East Malaysia

Commendation | Nominee: East Malaysia


The Security Council,

Recognizing East Malaysia (EM) as one of the ancient bastions of nation- and region-building within The East Pacific (TEP), maintaining a strong and influential presence over a period of two decades and multiple government systems, from the Charter of The East Pacific to the Elders system and finally the modern Concordat,

Praising EM’s work during and after the Empire invasion of TEP in 2008, submitting to the Empire a list of non-negotiable demands for peace which, when rejected by the occupying forces, led them to advocate for military action to take back the region; EM’s courage in standing against the Empire led to their election as one of the three Elders of TEP under the next government, largely serving to stabilize the region and oversee the peaceful and democratic transition into the current regime,

Acknowledging over 19 years of administrative service on EM’s part in the background of TEP, developing new technologies for government use, such as automated systems for regional interface and task organization, regularly overhauling dispatch informational systems amd templates, producing numerous graphics for government recruitment and use, maintaining and updating regional services for discussion, adapting community meeting spaces for inclusion of subcommunities, reforming community structure for effective management of non-governmental services, and other innovative leaps,

Applauding the initiative taken by EM to curtail the negative effects of Fedele’s 2019 coup attempt, through their membership in the Small Magisterium Cafeterium, a legislative resistance bloc, their quick action securing regional services and infrastructure for the legitimate government, and their setting of the Magisterium’s agenda for the days to follow, which would experience a burst of activity to rebuild and massively reform the government from what remained following the crisis,

Celebrating the tireless efforts of EM to ensure the efficient operation of the Eastern Pacific News Service in 2020, when EM stepped up and not only kept the newspaper from falling into disarray, but increased production, expanding the representation of the Urth and Valsora communities, meeting more successful quotas, and pursuing the Midnight Star Magazine, an initiative which converted EPNS into a sleek, visual format,

Lionizing the inception of the Support The East Pacific (STEP) program in 2021, a project designed to explain all facets of TEP to new residents in order to better acclimate them to its institutions and encourage active participation; these were the first detailed, and first official, guides to advertise the Valsora and Urth communities, providing easy navigation over multiple dispatches, which were also the first to incorporate both East Pacifican-produced artwork and utilitarian graphic designs in TEP history,

Extolling the massive protections of political rights introduced by EM in the Magisterium in 2021, which elevated the status of apolitical TEP non-citizen residents within the justice system, previously denied due process by an elitist system treating them as second class, and repaired the relationship between the government and some of the disillusioned governed, allowing for more community unity and integration,

Honoring their creation, constant maintenance, and frequent updating of an encyclopedia platform for the publication of informational materials on one’s nation, which has enabled the documentation of thousands of years of history on dozens of nations in the world of Urth, currently holding over three thousand articles,

Appreciating the contributions to such documentation that EM has repeatedly pushed, such as in 2019, with the inception of a map of time zones within Urth, which is still maintained by other nations today, as well as the development of a master list of languages and species, including an evolutionary tree of the latter, building upon old, abandoned lists and bringing together information from a wide array of nations to form what then became the current encyclopedia articles on such,

Admiring the rich, island culture of the Free Pax States, the Urthian name for East Malaysia, stemming from the multi-species nation’s diversity, known for its rice-based cuisine, history of scientific and philosophical advancement, and the worship of the ancient panther god Mun, a god further included in globe-spanning Yuserist religious canon as a fallen god of creation,

Lauding the extensive documentation of the uniquely constructed language of Kilumi, the language of the Free Pax States, with its flowing phonemes and artistic script unlike any seen on Urth or the multiverse, and

Believing the actions of EM and their effect on TEP to have invariably altered the course of East Pacifican and Urthian history and positively affected the region’s residents again and again for years passed and years to come,

Hereby Commends East Malaysia.
Last edited by Aivintis on Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:26 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Hulldom
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Postby Hulldom » Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:33 pm

Right, let's get started, shall we?

Aivintis wrote:The Security Council,

Recognizing East Malaysia (EM) as one of the ancient bastions of nation- and region-building within The East Pacific (TEP), maintaining a strong and influential presence over a period of two decades and multiple government systems, from the Charter of The East Pacific to the Elders system and finally the modern Concordat,

This is good, at least in the sense it actually tells me the overarching theming of the resolution.

Aivintis wrote:Praising EM’s work as the lead negotiator of TEP’s government during the invasion of the Empire in 2008, acting as a voice of reason in the region, speaking with its citizenry to establish expectations of the peace to come, proposing various peace terms, and, after the peace broke down due to the aggressive demands of the Empire, concluding that the people must fight for their independence without delay, pushing the region to military action against the Empire in a public display of their faith and courage which led to their election as Elder of the next government,

...and did this work? Did any of their plans for the peace to come actually come to fruition? What role did the Elder occupy in the next Government?

Aivintis wrote:Applauding the initiative taken by EM to assist in the reconstruction of East Pacifican government following the 2019 attempted coup d’etat by rogue delegate Fedele, hastily responding to the illegal actions of Fedele and their cabal in the Magisterium, calling for a unified front against the treasonous forces and setting the Magisterium’s agenda for the days to follow, which would experience a burst of activity to rebuild the government from what remained following the crisis,

My understanding, admittedly not the greatest, is that most things didn't...particularly change terribly much(?) in the aftermath of the Fedele coup. Sure, the democratically elected Government came to power, but uh....did things change terribly much? Again, my impression is no.

Aivintis wrote:Celebrating the tireless efforts of EM as the Chief Minister of Regional Affairs under the delegacy of Libertanny in 2020, a de jure supervisory position over the Ministries of Immigration, Culture, Education, and Information, transforming the role from a largely ceremonial and ineffective position to an active manager of activity, by:
  1. constructing “Cordmail” as a message delivery system, allowing Ministers and Advisors to ensure the personal attention of the Delegate in important matters during the busiest time in Executive history;
  2. keeping track of Ministers, staffing, and active projects under the purview of Regional Affairs in strict planning channels, which they used to keep Ministers beholden to monthly goals and targets as well as to drive activity in failing projects; and
  3. stepping in to ensure the continued operation of the Eastern Pacific News Service in a transitionary period following the resignation of its Minister;

Why is "Cordmail" commendable? Why didn't Ministers have Serge's ear to begin with and why was a special system necessary? Don't get me wrong, I like Serge as a person and am alright with him as a player, but that's not speaking well to him or EM.

Point two is like normal Ministerial activity? What was special? What was new that's survived?

And was EPNS especially productive or extraordinary?

Aivintis wrote:Lionizing the ideation of the Support The East Pacific (STEP) program in 2021, a project designed to explain all facets of TEP to new residents in order to better acclimate them to its institutions and encourage active participation, consisting of guides written with assistance from prominent individuals in the worlds of Urth and Valsora, as well as the four branches of regional government, all overseen by EM for the duration of the project,

So, this is definitely something for sure. I would say that my lone gripe here is that this doesn't read to me a something over the top or "special". Were these the first such guides of their kind? Were they more detailed than previous guides so as to provide a more effective introduction to TEP's government?

Aivintis wrote:Extolling the massive protections of residents’ rights introduced by EM in the Magisterium in 2021, which elevated the status of noncitizen East Pacifican residents within the justice system, previously denied due process by an elitist system treating them as second class, and challenged the establishment’s tradition of disregarding the rights and privileges of the apolitical peoples of TEP,

These are...definitely good words on their own. Has the introduction of protections for the rights of residents actually caused anything substantive beyond being particularly novel in TEP's legal system? Have there been substantive, observable changes that might not have been possible without these legal changes?

Aivintis wrote:Honoring their creation, constant maintenance, and frequent updating of an encyclopedia platform for the publication of informational materials on one’s nation, which has enabled the documentation of thousands of years of history on dozens of nations in the world of Urth, currently holding over three thousand articles,

Appreciating the contributions to such documentation that EM has repeatedly pushed, such as in 2019, with the inception of a map of time zones within Urth, which is still maintained by other nations today, as well as the development of a master list of languages and species, including an evolutionary tree of the latter, building upon old, abandoned lists and bringing together information from a wide array of nations to form what then became the current encyclopedia articles on such,

Admiring the rich, island culture of the Free Pax States, the Urthian name for East Malaysia, stemming from the multi-species nation’s diversity, known for its rice-based cuisine, history of scientific and philosophical advancement, and the worship of the ancient panther god Mun, a god further included in globe-spanning Yuserist religious canon as a fallen god of creation,

Lauding the extensive documentation of the uniquely constructed language of Kilumi, the language of the Free Pax States, with its flowing phonemes and artistic script unlike any seen on Urth or the multiverse, and

This is all definitely a +1. The RP stuff is actually quite good! And I think emphasizing EM's role here is probably the route to go. I think it can be more fleshed out if you wanted as I think it actually is, for the most part, the best part of this resolution's draft.

Aivintis wrote:Believing the actions of EM and their effect on TEP to have invariably altered the course of East Pacifican history and positively affected the region’s residents again and again for years passed and years to come,

Hereby Commends East Malaysia.

~~Just here because it needs to be, but solid conclusion ofc.~~

Overall, this reads like a lot of fluff to say that accomplishments that were maybe a bit more than average were remarkable. Remarkable has to be an impact on the international community writ large, especially domestic ones. Leaders in the domestic sphere can be commendable if their work actually translates across regions. Nothing in this resolution as currently written suggests EM's government work did. It suggests someone who has merely been around, not the first to do something and certainly not a pioneer.

However, I do like the RP stuff and if you could actually salvage an RP commend for EM out of all his stuff there (which seems to be extensive), I could be open to supporting that. As it stands though, no dice.
Last edited by Hulldom on Tue Oct 24, 2023 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Varanius » Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:01 pm

If nothing else, I admire your tenacity in your search for commendable East Pacificans. With that being said, let’s get this show on the road!

Aivintis wrote:Recognizing East Malaysia (EM) as one of the ancient bastions of nation- and region-building within The East Pacific (TEP), maintaining a strong and influential presence over a period of two decades and multiple government systems, from the Charter of The East Pacific to the Elders system and finally the modern Concordat,
Why does the Elders system get no explanation later in the resolution? What was the Elders system? What role did EM play in it?

Praising EM’s work as the lead negotiator of TEP’s government during the invasion of the Empire in 2008, acting as a voice of reason in the region, speaking with its citizenry to establish expectations of the peace to come, proposing various peace terms, and, after the peace broke down due to the aggressive demands of the Empire, concluding that the people must fight for their independence without delay, pushing the region to military action against the Empire in a public display of their faith and courage which led to their election as Elder of the next government,
Shocked pikachu face that the Empire was not reciprocative to peace talks. But, snark aside, starting out the meat of the resolution by describing him trying and (obviously and predictably) failing to negotiate peace with the Empire isn’t ideal, especially when it also serves as a weird segue into how his “courage” led to him being elected to a position that is never explained.

There’s also a large gaping hole in this clause where I imagine describing the effectiveness of his pushes for military action should have gone. How effective was this movement?

Applauding the initiative taken by EM to assist in the reconstruction of East Pacifican government following the 2019 attempted coup d’etat by rogue delegate Fedele, hastily responding to the illegal actions of Fedele and their cabal in the Magisterium, calling for a unified front against the treasonous forces and setting the Magisterium’s agenda for the days to follow, which would experience a burst of activity to rebuild the government from what remained following the crisis,
This feels like it deserves way more context. Why didn’t EM make moves to do something to stop Fedele before he couped? It wasn’t the case that no one was warning TEP that that Fedele guy was kinda sus. Coming out after your region has been couped to call for people to oppose the coup is not groundbreaking, but if he didn’t do anything to oppose Fedele before the coup, when everyone in Nationstates was warning TEP Fedele was going to coup, that’s a major lapse in judgment.

Also, why is there a 11 year gap in this commend? If the message you want to get across is that he’s been a stalwart presence throughout TEP’s history, naming one thing he did 15 years ago and then continuing the resolution by naming things he did 11 years later is counterproductive. Surely he did something commendable during this time if he’s been as steady a presence as you say?

Celebrating the tireless efforts of EM as the Chief Minister of Regional Affairs under the delegacy of Libertanny in 2020, a de jure supervisory position over the Ministries of Immigration, Culture, Education, and Information, transforming the role from a largely ceremonial and ineffective position to an active manager of activity, by:
A position which no longer exists. So it went…right back to ineffective in a few years time and you guys had to scrap it. Seems like it would’ve been better for him to just have changed the system into one that works than do an (allegedly) ok job. Speaking of which…
  1. constructing “Cordmail” as a message delivery system, allowing Ministers and Advisors to ensure the personal attention of the Delegate in important matters during the busiest time in Executive history;
What? Could they not just…DM the delegate?
  • keeping track of Ministers, staffing, and active projects under the purview of Regional Affairs in strict planning channels, which they used to keep Ministers beholden to monthly goals and targets as well as to drive activity in failing projects; and
  • Such as? I don’t see anything wrong with this if it’s the case, but it needs fleshing out. What projects succeeded due to his intervention?
  • stepping in to ensure the continued operation of the Eastern Pacific News Service in a transitionary period following the resignation of its Minister;
  • But was it good? Sure he continued operation, but did he create, maintain, or improve quality? Was his continuance of the project a good thing? Maybe EPNS needed a break and a moment of reflection, and his continuing of the status quo prevented that. I don’t know, this doesn’t tell me.

    Lionizing the ideation of the Support The East Pacific (STEP) program in 2021, a project designed to explain all facets of TEP to new residents in order to better acclimate them to its institutions and encourage active participation, consisting of guides written with assistance from prominent individuals in the worlds of Urth and Valsora, as well as the four branches of regional government, all overseen by EM for the duration of the project,
    STEP is…mostly up to date this time actually (it actually still lists Altys as delegate in various places, and the weeks-CTE Aga as Vice Delegate), but I’ll generously chalk that up to the fact those elections were recent. But still I find myself asking, did he do it? The phrasing “lionizing the ideation” would imply that he maybe had the idea of promoted it, but not actually that he made the thing. Was the extent of his contributions having the idea of a regional guide dispatch? If not, the phrasing should be amended to more appropriately reflect the extent of the contributions. If so, yikes.

    Extolling the massive protections of residents’ rights introduced by EM in the Magisterium in 2021, which elevated the status of noncitizen East Pacifican residents within the justice system, previously denied due process by an elitist system treating them as second class, and challenged the establishment’s tradition of disregarding the rights and privileges of the apolitical peoples of TEP,
    So he expanded the political protections of residents who aren’t citizens. Ok. Wouldn’t they just have to apply for citizenship? It seems a little dramatic to describe the…concept needing to apply for citizenship to receive the full political rights and experience in a region as elitist.

    Honoring their creation, constant maintenance, and frequent updating of an encyclopedia platform for the publication of informational materials on one’s nation, which has enabled the documentation of thousands of years of history on dozens of nations in the world of Urth, currently holding over three thousand articles,

    Appreciating the contributions to such documentation that EM has repeatedly pushed, such as in 2019, with the inception of a map of time zones within Urth, which is still maintained by other nations today, as well as the development of a master list of languages and species, including an evolutionary tree of the latter, building upon old, abandoned lists and bringing together information from a wide array of nations to form what then became the current encyclopedia articles on such,

    Admiring the rich, island culture of the Free Pax States, the Urthian name for East Malaysia, stemming from the multi-species nation’s diversity, known for its rice-based cuisine, history of scientific and philosophical advancement, and the worship of the ancient panther god Mun, a god further included in globe-spanning Yuserist religious canon as a fallen god of creation,

    Lauding the extensive documentation of the uniquely constructed language of Kilumi, the language of the Free Pax States, with its flowing phonemes and artistic script unlike any seen on Urth or the multiverse, and
    No problems with this at first glance

    Believing the actions of EM and their effect on TEP to have invariably altered the course of East Pacifican history and positively affected the region’s residents again and again for years passed and years to come,

    Hereby Commends East Malaysia.
    Nah. Not convinced.
    Last edited by Varanius on Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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    Postby Wymondham » Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:29 am

    Extolling the massive protections of residents’ rights introduced by EM in the Magisterium in 2021, which elevated the status of noncitizen East Pacifican residents within the justice system, previously denied due process by an elitist system treating them as second class, and challenged the establishment’s tradition of disregarding the rights and privileges of the apolitical peoples of TEP

    Given that EM was part of what you describe as an 'elitist system' which treated residents as 'second class' for 17 years before this was introduced, I don't think this is the groundbreaking achievement you seem to believe it is.
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    Postby Zukchiva » Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:54 am

    Wymondham wrote:
    Extolling the massive protections of residents’ rights introduced by EM in the Magisterium in 2021, which elevated the status of noncitizen East Pacifican residents within the justice system, previously denied due process by an elitist system treating them as second class, and challenged the establishment’s tradition of disregarding the rights and privileges of the apolitical peoples of TEP

    Given that EM was part of what you describe as an 'elitist system' which treated residents as 'second class' for 17 years before this was introduced, I don't think this is the groundbreaking achievement you seem to believe it is.

    People's opinions on matters can change. The thinking in TEP for years, far as I know, is that citizenship was easy to get on the forums and thus anyone who wanted the rights could secure them. It was only post-2019 that a greater awareness that some people may not care for the forums, yet still were a part of TEP's overall community and therefore deserving of basic justice, came to light - and even then, considering how traditionalistic TEP was and still is, making major legislative changes can be a pretty uphill battle. One barely gains anything from fighting those battles as well, beyond feeling like poop - as I've personally experienced in TEP and other regions I've been in - and perhaps a tad bit of prestige that a person of Em's stature really doesn't need.

    That in mind, I think it's fair enough to question if this really changed anything, but I don't think the idea that Em having supported the system for 17 years is a valid point against it. He realized the way TEP and himself thought for 17 years was wrong, and instead of just ignoring the issue to avoid troubling the status quo or worse giving up (like I did), he took steps to correct it with little benefit to himself. The fact Em supported such a system for 17 years thus should be moot in determining how notable this act is since ultimately he's the one who tore that system down for no benefit of his own (and honestly, to his own short-term detriment from having to deal with debating the proposal).
    Last edited by Zukchiva on Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
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    Postby Philly Macaroni » Tue Oct 24, 2023 10:38 am

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    Postby Refuge Isle » Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:55 am

    Does EM still want women to VC with him or else they're lying about who they are

    Or is that a kink that got ironed out since I left

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    Postby East Malaysia » Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:42 pm

    Refuge Isle wrote:Does EM still want women to VC with him or else they're lying about who they are

    Or is that a kink that got ironed out since I left


    I’ve never asked anyone to VC with me to prove who they are? This is also making me seem like some sort of predator or something. I don’t even like women. Quite gay. There was that misunderstanding from where back in the days in NS we just assumed everyone was a guy. True I did step on some feet there but unintentional at best
    Last edited by East Malaysia on Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Postby Mlakhavia » Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:07 pm

    East Malaysia wrote:
    Refuge Isle wrote:Does EM still want women to VC with him or else they're lying about who they are

    Or is that a kink that got ironed out since I left


    I’ve never asked anyone to VC with me to prove who they are? This is also making me seem like some sort of predator or something. I don’t even like women. Quite gay. There was that misunderstanding from where back in the days in NS we just assumed everyone was a guy. True I did step on some feet there but unintentional at best

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    Postby Marrabuk » Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:58 pm

    Refuge Isle wrote:Does EM still want women to VC with him or else they're lying about who they are

    Or is that a kink that got ironed out since I left

    I only remember em saying unless you hear a female voice in VC, always best to assume everyone’s a male in NS. I don’t believe that is/was malicious or intending to cause harm. It was at a point where there were people pretending to be females to prey on young boys in NS. So in that context, don’t believe that was malicious and you have unnecessarily bring this out of proportion for some reason. In fact, in this context, it was done to prevent harm instead of causing harm.

    Anyways, Em has my full support. When I was delegate, I sought the advice of Em on various occasions to seek his advice on historical events and records that he can remember with the snap of a finger since he has been in TEP for two decades(plus minus since I actually don’t recall the exact number of years but it’s around there). So have other delegates before and after me.
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    Postby Mlakhavia » Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:54 pm

    Marrabuk wrote:
    Refuge Isle wrote:Does EM still want women to VC with him or else they're lying about who they are

    Or is that a kink that got ironed out since I left

    I only remember em saying unless you hear a female voice in VC, always best to assume everyone’s a male in NS. I don’t believe that is/was malicious or intending to cause harm. It was at a point where there were people pretending to be females to prey on young boys in NS. So in that context, don’t believe that was malicious and you have unnecessarily bring this out of proportion for some reason. In fact, in this context, it was done to prevent harm instead of causing harm.

    This was undoubtedly bad behaviour. "Always best to assume everyone's a bloke unless you VC with them" -- do you understand how alienating this must have been to both cis and trans women? To have men demand you prove your womanhood to you, and then justify it by saying they're protecting children from predators? That this implies suspicion of predatory behaviour towards women who don't want to jump into a VC with a bunch of blokes who think they have the right to demand proof of womanhood? There are better ways to prevent predation than that, come on. I don't think you've given what you're saying enough thought, it doesn't have to have explicit malicious intent to still be a malicious act. Doing it in the past is hardly something that damns you forever, but come on. Don't try and cover someone's ass over it.
    Last edited by Mlakhavia on Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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    Postby Aivintis » Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:16 pm

    Right, for anyone who is reading and got the wrong idea, though Luca wouldn't provide evidence, I am fairly certain I found what they refer to. I will paste the messages here. That said, this whole conversation is completely off-topic, so I have reported it for threadjacking. I just don't want that to be a shield from accusations rather than letting the truth be the shield.

    EM: "Don’t know? Guy. Use they, them, etc to be gender neutral.
    They say they’re a girl? They’re a guy. Use her/she. But don’t be surprised if they’re guy.
    VC? Sounds like girls? Girl!"

    Luca: "This is a pretty fucked thing to say as a chat mod."

    Styx: "If somebody wants people to view them as female and isn't for the purpose of catfishing or the like then they usually have a good fucking reason. More than that, if you had heard me vc and assumed that I was male, even after me telling you otherwise, I would've taken it as transphobic, which it quite frankly would be. While I'm not accusing you of that, it's a very slippery slope."

    EM: "If you said I’m trans then that’s different. And I’m pretty understanding. I’m gay after all so no, not like I’m phobic of anyone of LGBT."

    Sakana: "I don't think you meant things as intentionally harmful, Em, but I think you did accidentally harm some people (myself included in that)."

    EM: "Well I apologize"

    Styx: "Thank you, I appreciate it"

    As far as I can tell, that's it. There's some stuff there that's indicative of a bad mindset, but it's called out, and it's clarified, and it's apologized for, and the apology is accepted. Not by Luca, sure, but by someone else who was offended. And since then, I note that the whole attitude of "assume everyone's a male unless proven otherwise" has become a thing of the past in TEP, just as in all places of the internet which strive to be accepting. More than that, TEP is a hub of LGBT pride; Sleet's comments about potential transphobia are something that was addressed by EM during the incident, and EM himself is nonbinary (he/they pronouns) and gay. TEP is accepting and open. Within the span of literally one day and less than ten posts, this played out and ended. Additionally, the active voice Luca implies, the idea that EM wants/requests/forces people into VCs if they say they're women, is misleading. There was never "VC or you're not a woman." It was all about internal assumptions. Bad internal assumptions, but internal assumptions. No orders to VC, no requests to VC, no misgendering. Just assumptions which needed to be corrected and were. The same day. Three years ago.

    Just wanted to say that for anyone who reads this before the mods (hopefully) crack down on the threadjacking. This is a place where the IC actions of EM are discussed. To that effect, I am working on a reply to the on-topic posts by Varanius and Hulldom.
    Last edited by Aivintis on Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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    Marrabuk
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    Postby Marrabuk » Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:26 pm

    Mlakhavia wrote:
    Marrabuk wrote:I only remember em saying unless you hear a female voice in VC, always best to assume everyone’s a male in NS. I don’t believe that is/was malicious or intending to cause harm. It was at a point where there were people pretending to be females to prey on young boys in NS. So in that context, don’t believe that was malicious and you have unnecessarily bring this out of proportion for some reason. In fact, in this context, it was done to prevent harm instead of causing harm.

    This was undoubtedly bad behaviour. "Always best to assume everyone's a bloke unless you VC with them" -- do you understand how alienating this must have been to both cis and trans women? To have men demand you prove your womanhood to you, and then justify it by saying they're protecting children from predators? That this implies suspicion of predatory behaviour towards women who don't want to jump into a VC with a bunch of blokes who think they have the right to demand proof of womanhood? There are better ways to prevent predation than that, come on. I don't think you've given what you're saying enough thought, it doesn't have to have explicit malicious intent to still be a malicious act. Doing it in the past is hardly something that damns you forever, but come on. Don't try and cover someone's ass over it.

    It is in no way I’m trying to defend him nor was I trying to imply or offend cis or transgender women with a “male” voice are not women. If I did, then I sincerely apologize. Again, taken out of context. Em made that statement after a user named “Sara” who was a male pretending to be female(not cis or trans) just for the purpose of sexually grooming minors and “predator-ing” over them in TEP and multiple regions in DMs. Our region and a few others had to do an investigation and had to ban them. Will link the ban statement shortly once I got them. Em said that remark after the investigation and the ban on user “Sara” to warn our minors not to be vulnerable and to be wary of predators. Now, I’m not saying what he said was right. But I’m saying you have to understand the context from where he made that remark on.
    Best Regards,
    Marrabuk
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    The Archregimancy
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    Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:51 am

    Aivintis wrote:Just wanted to say that for anyone who reads this before the mods (hopefully) crack down on the threadjacking. This is a place where the IC actions of EM are discussed.


    Yes please; this thread should focus on IC issues relevant to the commendation of East Malaysia.

    There are better forums for raising a dispute over OOC discussion, especially off-site OOC discussion.

    That's not an attempt to minimise the importance that some are placing on that dispute, but if you're opposed to the commendation, then please try and frame this opposition IC'ly in this specific thread.
    Last edited by The Archregimancy on Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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    Sedgistan
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    Postby Sedgistan » Fri Oct 27, 2023 1:57 pm

    Cross-posting from the Moderation report thread on this topic:
    Sedgistan wrote:There's been some commentary offsite regarding Arch's ruling, which has been read by some as saying that OOC matters shouldn't be mentioned at all when considering if a player's nation should be Commended/Condemned. I've discussed it with Arch, who is currently recuperating from Covid, and he never intended for his ruling to be read that way.

    There is precedent for discussion of OOC topics within those threads, though care should always be taken when approaching them. The thread in question was starting to tread on dangerous territory, so the intervention was appropriate.

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    Aivintis
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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:12 pm

    Hulldom wrote:...and did this work? Did any of their plans for the peace to come actually come to fruition? What role did the Elder occupy in the next Government?


    Varanius wrote:Why does the Elders system get no explanation later in the resolution? What was the Elders system? What role did EM play in it?

    Starting out the meat of the resolution by describing him trying and (obviously and predictably) failing to negotiate peace with the Empire isn’t ideal, especially when it also serves as a weird segue into how his “courage” led to him being elected to a position that is never explained.


    For the record, it DID work, because, hello, Empire was kicked out and the Elders took charge. The Elders system was largely traditional - it was a democratic administration of the region which kept the trains running so to speak, but, from the mouth of EM themselves, the the biggest thing he did as Elder was approve the Concordat and the shift into the CURRENT government system. It was a steward position and oversight for constitutional reform. I can edit a quick explanation of this in.

    For the record, speaking to Vara’s comment – the point wasn’t that EM failed negotiation. The point was that they had the integrity to try to find common ground and the courage to step up and say “We have to fight for our sovereignty.” THAT is the courage I mean.

    Varanius wrote:There’s also a large gaping hole in this clause where I imagine describing the effectiveness of his pushes for military action should have gone. How effective was this movement?


    Again…TEP fought. We overthrew the Empire, and we established the Elders system, which EM was involved with. I thought it was implicit. Should I explain much?

    Hulldom wrote:My understanding, admittedly not the greatest, is that most things didn't...particularly change terribly much(?) in the aftermath of the Fedele coup. Sure, the democratically elected Government came to power, but uh....did things change terribly much? Again, my impression is no.


    Not to be mean, but I don’t think words can express how absolutely wrong this assumption is. I’m not saying this as like a “gotcha” but I think it’s the only way I can express how fundamentally EVERYTHING changed following Fedele. We created two new laws covering two entirely unlegislated realms of governance to prevent some of Fedele’s actions from happening again. We changed the Magisterium membership system to prevent some of the cabal’s subversions from happening again. We turned the Viziers from a kinda independent but minor institution into an entire full brach of government. We put EPPS under the Viziers as a part of this branch. We rewrote elections. We rewrote the treason act and the criminal code. We rewrote the Curia Act. We rewrote the Concordat. There was a huge spike in legislative activity. And it wasn’t just correlation, either - almost every single legislative discussion following the coup, and MANY even today center around questions of regional security using the coup as an example. Our whole attitude towards government was forever altered, and we were kicked into a recovery period where we did a speedrun of political evolution which was blocked by the inherent inactivity of the Fedele government. EVERYTHING changed, and the Magisterium did a SHIT TON of work following the coup. So EM setting the agenda in that early period was absolutely relevant for that reason.

    Varanius wrote:This feels like it deserves way more context. Why didn’t EM make moves to do something to stop Fedele before he couped? It wasn’t the case that no one was warning TEP that that Fedele guy was kinda sus. Coming out after your region has been couped to call for people to oppose the coup is not groundbreaking, but if he didn’t do anything to oppose Fedele before the coup, when everyone in Nationstates was warning TEP Fedele was going to coup, that’s a major lapse in judgment.


    Well EM did kinda make moves to stop Fedele’s coup - they voted for Marra over Dave, they made a new regional server independent from Fedele’s control, they endorsed and unendorsed the right people, they helped coordinate countercoup efforts, and they may have even been a member of SMC (the legislative bloc opposed to the coup before even October). But none of this was prominent enough to commend by the lofty standards of the SC, whereas, the UNIQUE action of setting the legislative recovery agenda is far better to consider imo. Also it wasn’t after the coup, it was DURING. Even as we were wrestling control back from the region.

    Varanius wrote:Also, why is there a 11 year gap in this commend? If the message you want to get across is that he’s been a stalwart presence throughout TEP’s history, naming one thing he did 15 years ago and then continuing the resolution by naming things he did 11 years later is counterproductive. Surely he did something commendable during this time if he’s been as steady a presence as you say?


    Right, I kinda expected this kind of comment, so thank you for bringing it up, because it is a matter I want to talk about. In that 11 years, EM still did a lot. BUT, none of it was commendable. He did a lot of government maintenance work, he held different legislative offices, judicial offices, etc. but his presence was more of a constant comfort than an actor for change. The thing is that EM steps up when he needs to but steps back when he can, because an old man understands when to let the young’uns lead the way. EM was maintenance work. And again, a lot of that is OOC - forums, discord, moderation, etc. - which I can’t really get into now, can I?

    Varanius wrote:A position which no longer exists. So it went…right back to ineffective in a few years time and you guys had to scrap it. Seems like it would’ve been better for him to just have changed the system into one that works than do an (allegedly) ok job. Speaking of which…


    The position stopped existing like two days before you made this post AND its functions are still fulfilled by the Vice Delegate position, which you would know if you took the time to read the Delegate’s announcement instead of just looking at the list of offices. So there’s not even a criticism to address here because you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of what happened. CMoRA wasn’t removed so much as it was shifted/renamed as VD - in fact, previous VDs have largely followed EM’s example as CMoRA to accomplish their duties even when the CMoRA office existed as well. I know I did. Not to mention, EM didn’t have the authority to “change the system” like you say. They were CMoRA, not Delegate.

    Hulldom wrote:Why is "Cordmail" commendable? Why didn't Ministers have Serge's ear to begin with and why was a special system necessary? Don't get me wrong, I like Serge as a person and am alright with him as a player, but that's not speaking well to him or EM.


    Varanius wrote:What? Could they not just…DM the delegate?


    They could “just DM the Delegate” but as the resolution says this was THE busiest Executive in TEP history, and Serge was always extremely busy making history and breaking ground. Not to mention he typically got hundreds of messages and pings a day. The need to organize this was important, and cordmail served that purpose. Additionally, cordmail wasn’t just about getting the Delegate’s attention. It was about turning messages from Ministers into a centralized task list which could serve as a reference for doing all the many things Serge had to do at that time. They had his ear, it was just difficult to organize all the things he had to do, and EM’s Cordmail made that easier.

    Hulldom wrote:Point two is like normal Ministerial activity? What was special? What was new that's survived?


    In what world is watching over Ministers “normal Ministerial activity”? EM wasn’t Minister of Culture, Minister of Immigration, or anything. He was CMoRA. He wasn’t looking over the staff and projects of a single ministry, but of FIVE. INCLUDING keeping the Ministers in check and offering a helping hand to the Minister. He wasn’t the Minister. He was an overseer of the Ministers. That’s important to note.

    “What’s new that survived” is a successful overseer position - as noted, the VD now serves the same purpose. But that’s looking at it wrong IMO because the point is that EM was a force of that time during that time. That time has passed. Now, they are a force of THIS time. It’s the adaptability over years of different political climates to note here.

    Varanius wrote:Such as? I don’t see anything wrong with this if it’s the case, but it needs fleshing out. What projects succeeded due to his intervention?


    EPNS, mainly, but also just everything else being done. Paxport initiative was during this time (heightened staff due to allowance of non-citizens into government), for example. There were cultural festivals, there was Radio Culture (EM made the graphics, I think? And may have had a hand in shifting control when I passed it on to TechTag iirc idk), there were other stuff that I don’t remember because IMO, the initiatives themselves don’t matter - most of them aren’t very noteworthy in hindsight except that they made activity. Except maybe STEP (which has its own clause), and the dispatch system for the Ministry of Publishing (EM made the first standardized template, color palette, and system for creation, maintenance, and attribution of dispatches - i had forgotten about this until recently but I will add it in). The point is that EM had a hand in every success of the Serge administration’s RA ministries. I mean STEP was one which was noteworthy, but that has its own clause anyway.

    Hulldom wrote:And was EPNS especially productive or extraordinary?


    Varanius wrote:But was it good? Sure he continued operation, but did he create, maintain, or improve quality? Was his continuance of the project a good thing? Maybe EPNS needed a break and a moment of reflection, and his continuing of the status quo prevented that. I don’t know, this doesn’t tell me.


    Yes. I can do more detail on this, if y’all think it would be helpful, but:

    1. Production increased and more quotas were met
    2. A wider net was cast for writings (I think in this time I wrote one or two articles, even back when I was mainly a culture guy, and the RMB and Urth subcommunities were better represented)
    3. The Midnight Star Magazine was introduced (completely run by EM), which was like a visual newspaper based on the content of EPNS

    But I think it’s important to note that EM was the only reason EPNS was in operation AT ALL during this period. In my experience from my own Delegacy, EPNS death isn’t a time to reflect and reform, it’s a time to suffer great activity loss.

    Hulldom wrote:So, this is definitely something for sure. I would say that my lone gripe here is that this doesn't read to me a something over the top or "special". Were these the first such guides of their kind? Were they more detailed than previous guides so as to provide a more effective introduction to TEP's government?


    Varanius wrote:STEP is…mostly up to date this time actually (it actually still lists Altys as delegate in various places, and the weeks-CTE Aga as Vice Delegate), but I’ll generously chalk that up to the fact those elections were recent. But still I find myself asking, did he do it? The phrasing “lionizing the ideation” would imply that he maybe had the idea of promoted it, but not actually that he made the thing. Was the extent of his contributions having the idea of a regional guide dispatch? If not, the phrasing should be amended to more appropriately reflect the extent of the contributions. If so, yikes.


    Okay “ideation” was used solely because I was getting sick and tired of the word “creation” but I can go with “inception” because, if it wasn’t obvious, yes absolutely of course EM did it. Note that (a) these were the first in-depth guides (previously a numbered list of things to do was preferred), (b) these were the first government guides (i had a whole unofficial RMB guide which was of much lower quality), (c) STEP is currently being overhauled, which EM is currently involved with as well, (d) these were the first guides to cooperate with the RMB and Urth subcommunities, including them in the guides inherent recruitment potential, and (e) these were the first guides to use cool graphics, which yes, Vara, that IS a big deal, because TEP institutionally suffers from a lack of design sources.

    Varanius wrote:So he expanded the political protections of residents who aren’t citizens. Ok. Wouldn’t they just have to apply for citizenship? It seems a little dramatic to describe the…concept needing to apply for citizenship to receive the full political rights and experience in a region as elitist.


    It wasn’t “full political rights”, it was ANY political rights. TWP would see this as a good thing but: before this system, TEP residents could randomly be banned for no reason, hurting WA power and potential for recruitment. Additionally, notably, the RMB RP community, which has no interest in regional government (and thus citizenship) felt unrepresented by the government, uncared for, and looked down upon by the “forum elites”. Notably, a lot of RMBers didn’t like or didn’t wanna use TEP forums, which made it difficult for them to pursue citizenship anyway. Not to mention that, morally speaking, it’s wrong to force someone to fill out an application on a forum to not be bullied by the regime in power.

    Hulldom wrote:These are...definitely good words on their own. Has the introduction of protections for the rights of residents actually caused anything substantive beyond being particularly novel in TEP's legal system? Have there been substantive, observable changes that might not have been possible without these legal changes?


    It has, in part, contributed to the end of the practices and dissatisfaction described above. It also went a long way towards undoing years of hostility between the RMB and the government, leading to a more united community - the rest of this can be attributed to Libertanny’s efforts involving the RMB community and my efforts (and, this year, Merlovich’s as well) advocating for RMB interests.

    Hulldom wrote:This is all definitely a +1. The RP stuff is actually quite good! And I think emphasizing EM's role here is probably the route to go. I think it can be more fleshed out if you wanted as I think it actually is, for the most part, the best part of this resolution's draft.


    I don’t think it can be the main part, but it could maaaybe be expanded; if I’m being honest what has been mentioned are the only actual big important things for RP, I think.

    Hulldom wrote:Leaders in the domestic sphere can be commendable if their work actually translates across regions.


    This has absolutely not been my experience with SC Commends, ftr. There’s a reason there’s a category in the ideas thread called “Regionbuilding”. The commendation of Maowi that YOU wrote, as just one easy example, refers to numerous internal/domestic leadership successes and innovations that didn’t translate across other regions but were still, in my opinion as well as yours, were commendable.

    But, as you say, there is some space for improvement, and I will do my best to work on that moving forward.




    For the record, updating this resolution and replying in this thread on my part will be really slow because I've become very busy and GP commends without WA, Issue writing, or Defending are very difficult and time-consuming to refine anyway. So just keep that in mind. For what I think may be more fast paced, I will be pursuing another Commendation, but that isn't why I'll be slow here, for the record.

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    Libertanny
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    Postby Libertanny » Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:53 pm

    Ill write more extensive reply some other day.

    But one of most important things about Em pre-coup was that they were member of the Small Magisterium Cafeterium (later on Petit Comite), which was democratic, antifedelist and anticoup resistance, which started existing befote the coup, as before it we knew it is gonna happen.
    Confederacy of Independent Systems was morally better, than the Galactic Republic.

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    Aivintis
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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Thu Nov 09, 2023 1:43 pm

    Massive alterations of the political side of the resolution have been made, largely to better allay criticisms raised by Hulldom and Varanius. Libertanny's comment above on EM's SMC membership has also been taken into account. Even if you read the first half of the resolution before, I encourage you to reread it, because the content is vastly different.

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    Aivintis
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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:46 am

    Bump on this. I'm waiting until Vara and Hull can have a long look at this, but in the meantime, any other comments, questions, or critiques are very welcome.

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    Hulldom
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    Postby Hulldom » Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:34 pm

    It's going to be at least the end of the week, Aiv, sorry about that. Very busy time for me RL.
    ...And I feel like I'm clinging to a cloud!

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    Aivintis
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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:37 pm

    Hulldom wrote:It's going to be at least the end of the week, Aiv, sorry about that. Very busy time for me RL.

    All good, no worries. I can wait.

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    Aivintis
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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:45 pm

    I've spoken with Hulldom one-on-one and have enacted a few more changes to improve the quality of this resolution. Now, I'm waiting on Vara. Maybe I'll bump Serge to see about that extensive reply he hinted at doing in the future. I also welcome any others who wish to assist in this.

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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:39 pm

    I have put this on last call. Either tomorrow or Monday, I will probably submit this proposal.

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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:27 am

    This is now submitted!

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    Father Knows Best State

    Postby Aivintis » Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:31 pm

    Yeah, we've had this dance before, but I'm delaying this proposal for the liberation and injunction of Alcatraz by request of Vorhollah and Westinor. If you had any comments you didn't get in last time, they are welcome again.

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