Rethinking The Suicide Website

[Kenowa]

A few days ago a post on this forum discussed a certain website. My experiences aren't on it but on an incel forum, but there are some very interesting cases that are worthy of analisis.

On subreddits and forums that see the topic on a pro-death stance, it is fairly common to see users venting about mainstream media and suicide prevention. This can leave us with a simple conclusion; suicidal people (or an important number of them) do not feel encoraged by being told their lives are worthy or that what they want to do is wrong. On the contrary, they seem attracted to communities where their feelings are validated and shared. That's how most incels actually ended on the community, too.

A huge portion of incels have, ironically, said they felt better after being told that they are worthless and doomed to fail miserably at life than being (according to them) lied about their worth and possible future their may archive through determination and hard work. This makes a lot of sense, as websites that short of cyberbully insecure men (which will not be linked, but if you know what I'm talking about, you know) exist and thrive on the sphere. People feel better being lied to by people who tell them they are extremely ugly than being to by people who tell them they are just average.

So, how could this be fixed? It can't, but ideally the enterity of the internet would stop lying at people in hopes they feel better about themselves (they can tell), and tell someone if their life is over due to ugly looks, poor situations or whatevermore. If someone asks strangers anonymously about that kind of thing they are not in desire of validation or gratification, they just want confirmation.

[Crysuko]

I won’t mention it’s name (and I ask that nobody else do either) but I know the one you’re talking about. It’s predatory, intended to groom vulnerable individuals into ending their lives so the site's inner circle get a power trip. Oh, and the black market connections as well, and requiring you to pay to access particular “resources”

It turns my stomach. The solution is to hard shut it down and yeet the proprietors into a prison cell.

[Kenowa]

I won’t mention it’s name (and I ask that nobody else do either) but I know the one you’re talking about. It’s predatory, intended to groom vulnerable individuals into ending their lives so the site's inner circle get a power trip. Oh, and the black market connections as well, and requiring you to pay to access particular “resources”

It turns my stomach. The solution is to hard shut it down and yeet the proprietors into a prison cell.

That doesn't really solve anything. Internet communities are like hydras, you cut one head and two pop out. After the elimination of the drug marketplace site known as The Silk Road, seven different stores popped out into existence from it's ashes. The fact that the website exists and is active just proves that it is meant to exist, because there are people that go into it.

The issue is not the website, the issue is that people go to it.

[DutchFormosa]

I honestly don't care how people feel about it. Nobody's life has any value in the long run and the world would be way better without us. People only value people when they provide them something. You can't value us if we do nothing for you. Sorry you gotta learn the truth the hard way.

[Crysuko]

I won’t mention it’s name (and I ask that nobody else do either) but I know the one you’re talking about. It’s predatory, intended to groom vulnerable individuals into ending their lives so the site's inner circle get a power trip. Oh, and the black market connections as well, and requiring you to pay to access particular “resources”

It turns my stomach. The solution is to hard shut it down and yeet the proprietors into a prison cell.

That doesn't really solve anything. Internet communities are like hydras, you cut one head and two pop out. After the elimination of the drug marketplace site known as The Silk Road, seven different stores popped out into existence from it's ashes. The fact that the website exists and is active just proves that it is meant to exist, because there are people that go into it.

The issue is not the website, the issue is that people go to it.

The website itself is predatory, and you can’t convince me that extirpating it from the internet wouldn’t be a good thing.

[Durius]

Just for context, suicide among teenagers spiked after 13 Reasons Why. I literally never heard of such website except when you bring it up... Your post seem perfect for a kind of Streisand effect.

[The Seven levels of Heaven]

I honestly don't care how people feel about it. Nobody's life has any value in the long run and the world would be way better without us. People only value people when they provide them something. You can't value us if we do nothing for you. Sorry you gotta learn the truth the hard way.

Yeah, no. This is not an okay post. If you want to personally feel that way, more power to you, but pushing the idea that nobody's life has meaning or value, all is pointless and best if we're not around is not an okay thing to vocalize, especially given the topic we're in.

[DutchFormosa]

I honestly don't care how people feel about it. Nobody's life has any value in the long run and the world would be way better without us. People only value people when they provide them something. You can't value us if we do nothing for you. Sorry you gotta learn the truth the hard way.

Yeah, no. This is not an okay post. If you want to personally feel that way, more power to you, but pushing the idea that nobody's life has meaning or value, all is pointless and best if we're not around is not an okay thing to vocalize, especially given the topic we're in.

Whatever. Optimism gets us nowhere. The reason most species were able to exist was because of people like us. We can sense a threat a mile away, and do our best to avoid it. Like deer or something.

[Fractalnavel]

[...] people like us [...]

Which are what?

[The Seven levels of Heaven]

[...] people like us [...]

Which are what?

Nihilists, basically. People who are basically stuck in a perpetual cycle of woe is me, life is pointless because people are mean, and push that as an ideology as they try to drag others down to the same level by telling them their lives have no meaning or value.

It's an awful outlook, essentially pessimism on steroids but masked as being a "realist" normally, and those are the attitudes that will push at risk folks over the edge rather than pull them back.

[DutchFormosa]

[...] people like us [...]

Which are what?

Paranoid people. Like we can hear stuff that's probably not there. The reason we exist because we needed paranoia to survive. Cause, who knew if that sound you heard was a predator or not?

Nihilists, basically. People who are basically stuck in a perpetual cycle of woe is me, life is pointless because people are mean, and push that as an ideology as they try to drag others down to the same level by telling them their lives have no meaning or value.

It's an awful outlook, essentially pessimism on steroids but masked as being a "realist" normally, and those are the attitudes that will push at risk folks over the edge rather than pull them back.

That too.

[The Seven levels of Heaven]

Which are what?

Paranoid people. Like we can hear stuff that's probably not there. The reason we exist because we needed paranoia to survive. Cause, who knew if that sound you heard was a predator or not?

A bit of Skepticism is fine. Anyone who lacks any sort of awareness in that capacity is only going to set themselves up for failure.

But there's a somewhat big difference between being paranoid, and saying outright that there is 0 value to life, and that things would be better without us here. That's a completely different monster of an area, and as I mentioned is much more walking into Nihilism, which again more power to you if that's your vibe, but not the best to be vocalizing so flippantly.

[Cessarea]

Paranoid people. Like we can hear stuff that's probably not there. The reason we exist because we needed paranoia to survive. Cause, who knew if that sound you heard was a predator or not?

A bit of Skepticism is fine. Anyone who lacks any sort of awareness in that capacity is only going to set themselves up for failure.

But there's a somewhat big difference between being paranoid, and saying outright that there is 0 value to life, and that things would be better without us here. That's a completely different monster of an area, and as I mentioned is much more walking into Nihilism, which again more power to you if that's your vibe, but not the best to be vocalizing so flippantly.

To add to that, different people will be driven by different impulses in their lives - ones that fulfill the primary psychological needs they've acquired in their formative years through experience, upbringing, and a small part of genetics. I myself am often motivated by a wish to please and aid, whilst also worrying about how my actions will be remembered. Even if it is highly likely that history will forget my name and the names of every person who I know, it is simply not a worthwhile thought for me to have.

Can one really proclaim the superiority of their nihilist doctrine when others may do so well without it?

[Page]

There need to be platforms for the discussion of suicide and methods and the philosophy thereof. The reason the topic is banned here on NationStates is the same reason it's scrubbed from social media. It's all about liability. It's the owners of websites not wanting to get sued by the family of somebody who got advice on their site on how to make a noose. And I don't blame anyone for covering their ass, but there has to be a middle ground between trolls promoting suicide for fun and throwing hotline numbers and AI-generated "don't do it" messages at people who bring up the topic.

One thing I often think about is the need for harm reduction by way of explaining the efficacy of methods and the realities of failure, especially to counter dangerous misconceptions as spread by pop culture. There are so many TV shows that depict gunshot suicides by one placing the barrel of a gun at the bottom of their chin and aiming up, but in reality one who does this is not likely to die. Rather they'll blow their face off and end up blind and toothless. Or acetaminophen overdoses. One might take enough to die but it's going to be a slow death by liver failure that lasts for weeks, and all the while one will be aware of what they've done and that a liver transplant could save their life but they aren't going to get it because organs aren't given to suicidal people. Most suicides ought to be prevented but the people who end up going through with it should at least know that these are the worst ways to go.

Moreover, suicide is a fascinating moral and philosophical topic and clinical, scientific discussions are due.

I have no idea about the website the OP mentioned, it sounds like some fucked up people doing really fucked up shit, but as a general rule, censorship of the topic does not dissuade attempts. It's not as though somebody who is so miserable as to want to die is just never going to think about suicide on their own. If people are encouraging suicide for non-compassionate reasons, they should be dealt with such that their poisonous influence is put to an end. But the topic must have a platform.

[Life empire]

I honestly don't care how people feel about it. Nobody's life has any value in the long run and the world would be way better without us. People only value people when they provide them something. You can't value us if we do nothing for you. Sorry you gotta learn the truth the hard way.

nothing has any objective value, including life, but the way I see it people can subjectivelly value things, like life, the value of things is subjective, once again, that includes life

[Vikanias]

I honestly don't care how people feel about it. Nobody's life has any value in the long run and the world would be way better without us. People only value people when they provide them something. You can't value us if we do nothing for you. Sorry you gotta learn the truth the hard way.

I wouldn’t call this the truth. If you don’t find any value in life, fine by you. But many others feel different about, sure they find very different ways to that value but it’s all similar in a way. Bringing people down to your level is not a good way to go about it.

Some find value in Jesus Christ, others find value in family or friends, their pets or just that they see life, although it has its downsides has a thing that they can be happy in. Many people hate on Nihilists and I definitely disagree with their opinions but I feel as if most nihilists are people who didn’t get love growing up thus causing a world view where they consider themselves not valued, now, if you actually think this I do hope you find actual meaning to yourself and me shouting ‘you have so much to live for’ won’t do much to you. But with that said, trying to bring others down to your level by saying it’s the ‘truth’ is not good at all and only encourages people to go down the rabbit hole of depression, self hate, self harm, and possibly suicide.

Saying someone is ugly is not the same as saying that they never have been loved or that their life has no meaning.

[The Seven levels of Heaven]

There need to be platforms for the discussion of suicide and methods and the philosophy thereof. The reason the topic is banned here on NationStates is the same reason it's scrubbed from social media. It's all about liability. It's the owners of websites not wanting to get sued by the family of somebody who got advice on their site on how to make a noose. And I don't blame anyone for covering their ass, but there has to be a middle ground between trolls promoting suicide for fun and throwing hotline numbers and AI-generated "don't do it" messages at people who bring up the topic.

One thing I often think about is the need for harm reduction by way of explaining the efficacy of methods and the realities of failure, especially to counter dangerous misconceptions as spread by pop culture. There are so many TV shows that depict gunshot suicides by one placing the barrel of a gun at the bottom of their chin and aiming up, but in reality one who does this is not likely to die. Rather they'll blow their face off and end up blind and toothless. Or acetaminophen overdoses. One might take enough to die but it's going to be a slow death by liver failure that lasts for weeks, and all the while one will be aware of what they've done and that a liver transplant could save their life but they aren't going to get it because organs aren't given to suicidal people. Most suicides ought to be prevented but the people who end up going through with it should at least know that these are the worst ways to go.

Moreover, suicide is a fascinating moral and philosophical topic and clinical, scientific discussions are due.

I have no idea about the website the OP mentioned, it sounds like some fucked up people doing really fucked up shit, but as a general rule, censorship of the topic does not dissuade attempts. It's not as though somebody who is so miserable as to want to die is just never going to think about suicide on their own. If people are encouraging suicide for non-compassionate reasons, they should be dealt with such that their poisonous influence is put to an end. But the topic must have a platform.

No, it's not banned on here purely for liability reasons. Yes, the mods aren't equipped to deal with such a minefield area of a topic (nor should they have to be), but there's just way too many bad faith folks/trolls that will come in and degrade the thread...as usually happens with especially hot button topics (Which is why the subject of those threads eventually get blanket banned). However, this particular topic carries the much heavier weight of, as I warned DutchFormosa of earlier in this topic, potentially triggering the at risk folks and pushing them possibly over the edge, regardless of how good the intentions may have been in wanting to open the thread to genuine discussions. Doesn't even matter that any bad faith folks get banned, the damage would have already been done. Heck, sometimes the folks who end up doing the worst damage are those folks who came in with good intentions just to discuss, because people have different views (again, as you've seen in here) that may be potentially much more damaging even if they think they're correct.

Nationstates isn't a scientific study website, nor is it a mental health one...and the last thing we need is a topic about such a sensitive matter being discussed by Google Gurus or worse. If you're wanting a serious and genuine discussion on such a tricky topic and not have it spiral out of control, you're going to get about as much luck on here as you would posting it on 4Chan or Reddit. You're better off openly discussing this on a dedicated mental health forum.