Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and pre-1941 Soviet foreign policy

[Picairn]

Alright, let's get this thread going. Opening materials:

The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, officially the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,[1][2] was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union with secret protocol that partitioned Central and Eastern Europe between them. The pact was signed in Moscow on 23 August 1939 by German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov.[3] Unofficially, it has also been referred to as the Hitler–Stalin Pact,[4][5] Nazi–Soviet Pact[6] or Nazi–Soviet Alliance.[7]

German–Soviet Axis talks occurred in October and November 1940 concerning the Soviet Union's potential entry as a fourth Axis power during World War II. The negotiations, which occurred during the era of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, included a two-day conference in Berlin between Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov and Adolf Hitler and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop. The talks were followed by both countries trading written proposed agreements.

After the Nazis rose to power in Germany in 1933, relations between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union began to deteriorate rapidly. Trade between the two sides decreased. Following several years of high tension and rivalry, the two governments began to improve relations in 1939. In August of that year, the countries expanded their economic relationship by entering into a Trade and Credit agreement whereby the Soviet Union sent critical raw materials to Germany in exchange for weapons, military technology and civilian machinery. That deal accompanied the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, which contained secret protocols dividing central Europe between them, after which both Nazi forces and Soviet forces invaded territories listed within their "spheres of influence".

The central question of the day is: Did the Soviets sign the MR Pact, conduct negotiations regarding potential Soviet entry into the Axis, and give supplies to Germany to test the waters and prepare for Hitler's invasion, or did Stalin have serious intentions to join the Axis? Or in other words, was Stalin a pragmatic diplomat or a naive, evil idiot in foreign policy?

I think the latter is more accurate, given that the Germans were the ones to break off the talks despite Soviet persistence. The continuous supply of raw materials to Nazi Germany up until the invasion is also deeply suspicious despite numerous warning signals of German preparations and the Germans themselves not fulfilling their end of the deal of giving the Soviets technological equipment. But of course, many of you may think otherwise.

Discuss.

[Bradfordville]

You didn't have to do this.

[Picairn]

You didn't have to do this.

I had to because recycling WW2 discussions is distracting from the discussion on the current Ukraine war.

[Rusozak]

I think Stalin would have been content with the pre-1941 status quo. Had the Germans not invaded, the Soviets would have let the Nazis keep most of Europe as they consolidated themselves in the east. Was there any long term plan to buy time to build up for a Soviet invasion? Hard to say. But Stalin had no intention of helping the Allies before Hitler forced his hand. A likely alternative outcome of the pact holding would have been an Axis victory followed by the Cold War, but with Nazi Germany instead of NATO.

[Punished UMN]

Alright, let's get this thread going. Opening materials:

The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, officially the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,[1][2] was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union with secret protocol that partitioned Central and Eastern Europe between them. The pact was signed in Moscow on 23 August 1939 by German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov.[3] Unofficially, it has also been referred to as the Hitler–Stalin Pact,[4][5] Nazi–Soviet Pact[6] or Nazi–Soviet Alliance.[7]

German–Soviet Axis talks occurred in October and November 1940 concerning the Soviet Union's potential entry as a fourth Axis power during World War II. The negotiations, which occurred during the era of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, included a two-day conference in Berlin between Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov and Adolf Hitler and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop. The talks were followed by both countries trading written proposed agreements.

After the Nazis rose to power in Germany in 1933, relations between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union began to deteriorate rapidly. Trade between the two sides decreased. Following several years of high tension and rivalry, the two governments began to improve relations in 1939. In August of that year, the countries expanded their economic relationship by entering into a Trade and Credit agreement whereby the Soviet Union sent critical raw materials to Germany in exchange for weapons, military technology and civilian machinery. That deal accompanied the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, which contained secret protocols dividing central Europe between them, after which both Nazi forces and Soviet forces invaded territories listed within their "spheres of influence".

The central question of the day is: Did the Soviets sign the MR Pact, conduct negotiations regarding potential Soviet entry into the Axis, and give supplies to Germany to test the waters and prepare for Hitler's invasion, or did Stalin have serious intentions to join the Axis? Or in other words, was Stalin a pragmatic diplomat or a naive, evil idiot in foreign policy?

I think the latter is more accurate, given that the Germans were the ones to break off the talks despite Soviet persistence. The continuous supply of raw materials to Nazi Germany up until the invasion is also deeply suspicious despite numerous warning signals of German preparations and the Germans themselves not fulfilling their end of the deal of giving the Soviets technological equipment. But of course, many of you may think otherwise.

Discuss.

I think it would be a mistake to think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Stalin strongy pressured Molotov to negotiate a way for the USSR into the Axis, but it's also clear he did so because he did not believe the USSR had any hope of standing against Germany; Stalin initially attempted to ally himself with Britain and France before the Pact, and prior to the invasion of the USSR, a major reason Stalin did not prepare for the imminent invasion is not ignorance of it, but instead a show of submission. Stalin hoped that without taking steps to defend the USSR and its people, that Germany might be placated into merely issuing an ultimatum on joining the Axis which he could then cave to, as had Romania. The idea that Stalin was just biding his time comes directly from Stalin's own retrospectives a decade later and is clearly self-serving, seeking to shield him from criticism by later Soviet leaders.

[Stellar Colonies]

1) The German invasion of the Soviet Union was not a preemptive strike.

2) WWII began with both the Germans and Soviets invading the same country from opposite ends.

3) If they didn't have the ability to wipe out the Germans immediately, the Soviets were willing to dump resources into them and divide up the imperial spoils while not interfering with the Nazis feasting on the rest of Europe as sacrifices to distract them.

[Glorious Freedonia]

1. The Pact was designed to increase cooperation between Germany and USSR.

2. Regardless of to what extent the cooperation occurred, it seems that a lot this cooperation was carried out in a manner that helped the two sides to spy on each other.

3. The alliance that was created was not a real step towards the USSR joining the Axis. The Axis was a development out of the Anti-Comintern Pact. USSR could not be a part of that pact because it was communist.

4. The alliance set forth a plan for the two countries to be co-belligerents in a war against Poland.

5. The more or less joint invasion of Poland was something that was a problem for the other original Anti-Comintern Pact ally, Japan. This is because Japan wanted Poland above all other nations to join the pact.

[Glorious Freedonia]

1) The German invasion of the Soviet Union was not a preemptive strike.

2) WWII began with both the Germans and Soviets invading the same country from opposite ends.

3) If they didn't have the ability to wipe out the Germans immediately, the Soviets were willing to dump resources into them and divide up the imperial spoils while not interfering with the Nazis feasting on the rest of Europe as sacrifices to distract them.

1. No. I think that it was a preemptive strike. Germany wanted to fight them when they did because they would likely have to fight a stronger USSR later.

2. Agreed, sort of. The Japanese invasion of China and the Italian invasion of Ethiopia also are part of the start of World War II. One could possibly include the Spanish Civil War there too, but this is likely not a start of it.

3. I do not understand this point.

[Punished UMN]

1. The Pact was designed to increase cooperation between Germany and USSR.

2. Regardless of to what extent the cooperation occurred, it seems that a lot this cooperation was carried out in a manner that helped the two sides to spy on each other.

3. The alliance that was created was not a real step towards the USSR joining the Axis. The Axis was a development out of the Anti-Comintern Pact. USSR could not be a part of that pact because it was communist.

4. The alliance set forth a plan for the two countries to be co-belligerents in a war against Poland.

5. The more or less joint invasion of Poland was something that was a problem for the other original Anti-Comintern Pact ally, Japan. This is because Japan wanted Poland above all other nations to join the pact.

If it was not a real step towards an alliance then why did both Stalin and Hitler draw up treaties for the creation of a four-power pact which would include Germany, the USSR, Italy, and Japan?

[James_xenoland]

Of course the intent was real.. These were just one of a number of pacts and treaties between the two. Hell, it took Stalin a full week to get over the shock of the German attack. This is one of the darkest and most under reported eps in modern history. (Mostly thanks to efforts to whitewash the USSR and later soviet propaganda/subversion in the west.) They literally planned to divide up another nation in secret as well. (an action that literally kicked off WW2 officially) Also don't forget about all the raw materials they supplied the German's, supplies used to invade the rest of Europe.

My favorite little story is about the resource trains, and how one element of German propaganda wasn't completely false about the morning of the attack. A Russian train did indeed cross the border into Germany that morning.. What they left out was the fact that it was the last of one of the thousands of such supply trains doing so for years.

The Russians were never heroes or victims of WW2. They were fully intent on siding with the Germans, Italians and Japanese. They helped sow the wind, and reaped the whirlwind.

[Glorious Freedonia]

1. The Pact was designed to increase cooperation between Germany and USSR.

2. Regardless of to what extent the cooperation occurred, it seems that a lot this cooperation was carried out in a manner that helped the two sides to spy on each other.

3. The alliance that was created was not a real step towards the USSR joining the Axis. The Axis was a development out of the Anti-Comintern Pact. USSR could not be a part of that pact because it was communist.

4. The alliance set forth a plan for the two countries to be co-belligerents in a war against Poland.

5. The more or less joint invasion of Poland was something that was a problem for the other original Anti-Comintern Pact ally, Japan. This is because Japan wanted Poland above all other nations to join the pact.

If it was not a real step towards an alliance then why did both Stalin and Hitler draw up treaties for the creation of a four-power pact which would include Germany, the USSR, Italy, and Japan?

Obviously Hitler was not seriously committed to a long term alliance. I do not think that Stalin was either but he was so inscrutable that reasonable minds could differ.

[Kubra]

1. The Pact was designed to increase cooperation between Germany and USSR.

2. Regardless of to what extent the cooperation occurred, it seems that a lot this cooperation was carried out in a manner that helped the two sides to spy on each other.

3. The alliance that was created was not a real step towards the USSR joining the Axis. The Axis was a development out of the Anti-Comintern Pact. USSR could not be a part of that pact because it was communist.

4. The alliance set forth a plan for the two countries to be co-belligerents in a war against Poland.

5. The more or less joint invasion of Poland was something that was a problem for the other original Anti-Comintern Pact ally, Japan. This is because Japan wanted Poland above all other nations to join the pact.

If it was not a real step towards an alliance then why did both Stalin and Hitler draw up treaties for the creation of a four-power pact which would include Germany, the USSR, Italy, and Japan?

In Hitlers case, because it was a mere scrap of paper and placating stalin at a time when he was still trying to take out London made sense.

As for Stalin, le'ts be honest: there was probably no one who was more surprised than him when the soviets won the war.

[Glorious Freedonia]

If it was not a real step towards an alliance then why did both Stalin and Hitler draw up treaties for the creation of a four-power pact which would include Germany, the USSR, Italy, and Japan?

In Hitlers case, because it was a mere scrap of paper and placating stalin at a time when he was still trying to take out London made sense.

As for Stalin, le'ts be honest: there was probably no one who was more surprised than him when the soviets won the war.

Both of your points are correct.