Int. chess body bans trans women from women’s events

[Gravlen]

The international governing body for chess has released new policies that prohibit transgender women from competing in women’s events and will strip some transgender players of their titles.

Under the new guidelines from the International Chess Federation — known by its French acronym, FIDE — individuals who transition from male to female have “no right” to compete in official events for women until “further analysis” is made, which could take up to two years. Additionally, if a player holds titles in women’s categories and transitions to male, “the women titles are to be abolished,” while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says.

WaPo article

I don't know if this is the first step towards banning pawns from transitioning onto other pieces when they reach the opposite side of the chessboard...

I don't follow the reasoning at all. With other sports bans the argument has been that trans women have an unfair physical advantage over cisgender women. Agree or disagree with that argument, it's clear that it does not apply to chess, even though you agree with the idea that chess is a sport.

But “there’s not that physicality dimension to chess, it’s a game of strategy,” said Richard Pringle, a professor of sociology and education who studies gender and sexuality in the context of sport at Monash University in Australia.

“It suggests that males are somehow strategically better. … It’s not just transphobic, it’s anti-feminist too,” he said of the ban, adding that it was “likely a political decision rather than an issue of fairness.”

I personally agree with this part. I see no justification for this ban whatsoever.

Does anyone agree with this? If so, can I get an explanation as to how this makes any sense?

[Planets and Systems]

Now, this might seem unreasonable, but as a pretty decent chess player (1850), and a somewhat obsessed follower of chess, it makes sense, even as a staunch progressive. FIDE has plenty of problems like any FI organisation, but seriously, this makes sense. Women are generally worse at chess at the highest levels. Fact. The best female player is a few hundred behind Magnus. So a man transitioning and playing, and gaining the easier WGM, WIM, WFM, etc. titles is blatantly unfair, especially as they begin to raise the required norms to gain titles.

[Cessarea]

Women are generally worse at chess at the highest levels. Fact.

And I suppose you think that's because of some inherent biological difference between biological males and females?

[Neoncomplexultra]

the top rated female chess player in the world, Hou Yifan, is also #123 in the general rankings, behind 122 men

men have an obvious advantage in this sport

you may have fun debating in this thread why this is the case; surely, the replies will go on for many pages!

perhaps, one day you will agree on the reason; good luck! but for some people, some things will always be a mystery...

[Planets and Systems]

For proof, here it is. Yifan Hou is the best female chess player. At 2628 rating. Magnus is 2853.

You explain it. Both are trained like hell, and both are talented. And the pattern follows. The best female players are “only” good GMs. This was one of my personal peeves with (the otherwise excellent) Queen’s Gambit.

[Cessarea]

For proof, here it is. Yifan Hou is the best female chess player. At 2628 rating. Magnus is 2853.

You explain it. Both are trained like hell, and both are talented. And the pattern follows. The best female players are “only” good GMs. This was one of my personal peeves with (the otherwise excellent) Queen’s Gambit.

Firstly, Judit Polgár.

Secondly, the incredibly tiny pool of women that partake on the sport.

Thirdly, previous research conducted that does not prove a sufficiently significant difference between cognitive ability between males and females.

I thought this stuff was obvious already.

Edit: There's also this neat article which explains, among other things, how you can easily expect a tiny quantity of top-level women in chess given the participation rate.

[Planets and Systems]

For proof, here it is. Yifan Hou is the best female chess player. At 2628 rating. Magnus is 2853.

You explain it. Both are trained like hell, and both are talented. And the pattern follows. The best female players are “only” good GMs. This was one of my personal peeves with (the otherwise excellent) Queen’s Gambit.

Firstly, Judit Polgár.

Secondly, the incredibly tiny pool of women that partake on the sport.

Thirdly, previous research conducted that does not prove a sufficiently significant difference between cognitive ability between males and females.

I thought this stuff was obvious already.

Judit Polgar is still 120 points behind Magnus. And rank 71, with 70 men ahead of her.

Also, cognitive ability does not translate directly to chess. I met this guy with 112 IQ, and he kicked my ass in chess. And I’m both barely below CM, and at 162 IQ, so no. It has Jack to do with chess. Also a previous world champion was apparently an idiot.

[Neoncomplexultra]

This was one of my personal peeves with (the otherwise excellent) Queen’s Gambit.

perhaps if Bobby Fischer had had gender dysphoria, instead of the strategic analysis which he made of american politics...

[Alvecia]

For proof, here it is. Yifan Hou is the best female chess player. At 2628 rating. Magnus is 2853.

You explain it. Both are trained like hell, and both are talented. And the pattern follows. The best female players are “only” good GMs. This was one of my personal peeves with (the otherwise excellent) Queen’s Gambit.

This proof seems circular to me. Men are better because currently the best are men. Not particularly compelling.

[Hermes Express 123]

The international governing body for chess has released new policies that prohibit transgender women from competing in women’s events and will strip some transgender players of their titles.

Under the new guidelines from the International Chess Federation — known by its French acronym, FIDE — individuals who transition from male to female have “no right” to compete in official events for women until “further analysis” is made, which could take up to two years. Additionally, if a player holds titles in women’s categories and transitions to male, “the women titles are to be abolished,” while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says.

WaPo article

I don't know if this is the first step towards banning pawns from transitioning onto other pieces when they reach the opposite side of the chessboard...

I don't follow the reasoning at all. With other sports bans the argument has been that trans women have an unfair physical advantage over cisgender women. Agree or disagree with that argument, it's clear that it does not apply to chess, even though you agree with the idea that chess is a sport.

But “there’s not that physicality dimension to chess, it’s a game of strategy,” said Richard Pringle, a professor of sociology and education who studies gender and sexuality in the context of sport at Monash University in Australia.

“It suggests that males are somehow strategically better. … It’s not just transphobic, it’s anti-feminist too,” he said of the ban, adding that it was “likely a political decision rather than an issue of fairness.”

I personally agree with this part. I see no justification for this ban whatsoever.

Does anyone agree with this? If so, can I get an explanation as to how this makes any sense?

Firmly agree with the ban. Doesn’t matter what you think you are; what makes is what you actually are. There is legitimate reasons for men to face men, and woman to face woman, in chess.

[Cessarea]

Firstly, Judit Polgár.

Secondly, the incredibly tiny pool of women that partake on the sport.

Thirdly, previous research conducted that does not prove a sufficiently significant difference between cognitive ability between males and females.

I thought this stuff was obvious already.

Judit Polgar is still 120 points behind Magnus. And rank 71, with 70 men ahead of her.

Also, cognitive ability does not translate directly to chess. I met this guy with 112 IQ, and he kicked my ass in chess. And I’m both barely below CM, and at 162 IQ, so no. It has Jack to do with chess. Also a previous world champion was apparently an idiot.

...Stop using IQ as a metric of general intelligence. I'll ignore that for the sake of not derailing this thread into disproving pseudoscience.

Judit Polgár attained the 8th position in the ELO rating in her peak, in 2005. Her ELO rating hasn't decreased, obviously, but the ratings of those surrounding her have, and she has, of course, already retired.

[Alvecia]

The international governing body for chess has released new policies that prohibit transgender women from competing in women’s events and will strip some transgender players of their titles.

Under the new guidelines from the International Chess Federation — known by its French acronym, FIDE — individuals who transition from male to female have “no right” to compete in official events for women until “further analysis” is made, which could take up to two years. Additionally, if a player holds titles in women’s categories and transitions to male, “the women titles are to be abolished,” while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says.

WaPo article

I don't know if this is the first step towards banning pawns from transitioning onto other pieces when they reach the opposite side of the chessboard...

I don't follow the reasoning at all. With other sports bans the argument has been that trans women have an unfair physical advantage over cisgender women. Agree or disagree with that argument, it's clear that it does not apply to chess, even though you agree with the idea that chess is a sport.

But “there’s not that physicality dimension to chess, it’s a game of strategy,” said Richard Pringle, a professor of sociology and education who studies gender and sexuality in the context of sport at Monash University in Australia.

“It suggests that males are somehow strategically better. … It’s not just transphobic, it’s anti-feminist too,” he said of the ban, adding that it was “likely a political decision rather than an issue of fairness.”

I personally agree with this part. I see no justification for this ban whatsoever.

Does anyone agree with this? If so, can I get an explanation as to how this makes any sense?

Firmly agree with the ban. Doesn’t matter what you think you are; what makes is what you actually are. There is legitimate reasons for men to face men, and woman to face woman, in chess.

From what I've heard, the most compelling reasons would be the rampant misogyny and sexual harassment.

[Planets and Systems]

The international governing body for chess has released new policies that prohibit transgender women from competing in women’s events and will strip some transgender players of their titles.

Under the new guidelines from the International Chess Federation — known by its French acronym, FIDE — individuals who transition from male to female have “no right” to compete in official events for women until “further analysis” is made, which could take up to two years. Additionally, if a player holds titles in women’s categories and transitions to male, “the women titles are to be abolished,” while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says.

WaPo article

I don't know if this is the first step towards banning pawns from transitioning onto other pieces when they reach the opposite side of the chessboard...

I don't follow the reasoning at all. With other sports bans the argument has been that trans women have an unfair physical advantage over cisgender women. Agree or disagree with that argument, it's clear that it does not apply to chess, even though you agree with the idea that chess is a sport.

But “there’s not that physicality dimension to chess, it’s a game of strategy,” said Richard Pringle, a professor of sociology and education who studies gender and sexuality in the context of sport at Monash University in Australia.

“It suggests that males are somehow strategically better. … It’s not just transphobic, it’s anti-feminist too,” he said of the ban, adding that it was “likely a political decision rather than an issue of fairness.”

I personally agree with this part. I see no justification for this ban whatsoever.

Does anyone agree with this? If so, can I get an explanation as to how this makes any sense?

Firmly agree with the ban. Doesn’t matter what you think you are; what makes is what you actually are. There is legitimate reasons for men to face men, and woman to face woman, in chess.

Not really. But there are legitimate reasons for men and women to have different titles, and different championship tournaments, etc. other than rating based tournaments, of course.

For proof, here it is. Yifan Hou is the best female chess player. At 2628 rating. Magnus is 2853.

You explain it. Both are trained like hell, and both are talented. And the pattern follows. The best female players are “only” good GMs. This was one of my personal peeves with (the otherwise excellent) Queen’s Gambit.

This proof seems circular to me. Men are better because currently the best are men. Not particularly compelling.

No, not really. The current best are men, and not through lack of trying by women. Judit Polgar, for whom I have great respect for, has still never reached the championship, and still is behind a significant number of GMs.

[Cessarea]

Firmly agree with the ban. Doesn’t matter what you think you are; what makes is what you actually are. There is legitimate reasons for men to face men, and woman to face woman, in chess.

I suppose you need a lot of upper-body strength to move those bishops, huh?

As Alvecia said:

For proof, here it is. Yifan Hou is the best female chess player. At 2628 rating. Magnus is 2853.

You explain it. Both are trained like hell, and both are talented. And the pattern follows. The best female players are “only” good GMs. This was one of my personal peeves with (the otherwise excellent) Queen’s Gambit.

This proof seems circular to me. Men are better because currently the best are men. Not particularly compelling.

[Neoncomplexultra]

note how quickly the discussion is diverted from the supposed topic; it is like arguing with an ex-girlfriend

the question was, "what will happen if you allow biological males who identify as women to compete in this sport?"

the answer came very quickly, "they will dominate it"

now, the discussion will go on for pages, about what is the reason for this. however, this is a new topic. from the perspective of the chess federation, it is enough to know what will happen in order to make the decision; you do not need to know why it happens. this is a problem for someone else

i only have intelligent ex-girlfriends; my problem in arguing with them is not their cognitive ability, but that they do not seem interested in talking in a straight line or in telling the truth about anything, so they will take any topic, ignore it, and twist the conversation into what they really wanted to complain about the whole time. that is the maximum intersection between their dialectic and issues of objective reality; so they are a lot like this thread

he who would debate politics with westerners; first master the art of argument with a woman

[Alvecia]

This proof seems circular to me. Men are better because currently the best are men. Not particularly compelling.

No, not really. The current best are men, and not through lack of trying by women. Judit Polgar, for whom I have great respect for, has still never reached the championship, and still is behind a significant number of GMs.

Yes, really. You've provided no actual proof, only pointed at the current rankings. That tells us nothing about the inherent capability of either sex.

[Cessarea]

note how quickly the discussion is diverted from the supposed topic; it is like arguing with an ex-girlfriend

the question was, "what will happen if you allow biological males who identify as women to compete in this sport?"

the answer came very quickly, "they will dominate it"

Given that the thread very quickly challenged that notion, and how no consensus was reached, I yhink your reading capacity is worse than that of men and women everywhere combined. Perhaps your cognition should be the object of our study.

[Galloism]

I am not sure why there is a men’s chess and women’s chess in the first place.

[Alvecia]

note how quickly the discussion is diverted from the supposed topic; it is like arguing with an ex-girlfriend

the question was, "what will happen if you allow biological males who identify as women to compete in this sport?"

the answer came very quickly, "they will dominate it"

There's a fun implication here that transwomen are inherently better at chess than either men or cis women. Which is a curious take, to say the least.

[Neoncomplexultra]

Given that the thread very quickly challenged that notion, and how no consensus was reached

it takes a google search to see that men dominate women in this sport as it is now

the null hypothesis is that, if men are allowed to identify as women and so compete in the women's divisions which were created to isolate them from this dominance, that the first fact will not change. null hypothesis is good hypothesis

Perhaps your cognition should be the object of our study.

for some people, some things will always be a mystery...

[Ifreann]

note how quickly the discussion is diverted from the supposed topic; it is like arguing with an ex-girlfriend

the question was, "what will happen if you allow biological males who identify as women to compete in this sport?"

the answer came very quickly, "they will dominate it"

There's a fun implication here that transwomen are inherently better at chess than either men or cis women. Which is a curious take, to say the least.

Well trans women can shoot lasers from their eyes, so naturally that's very intimidating to their chess opponents.

[Planets and Systems]

There's a fun implication here that transwomen are inherently better at chess than either men or cis women. Which is a curious take, to say the least.

Well trans women can shoot lasers from their eyes, so naturally that's very intimidating to their chess opponents.

They are better than cis women. That is a simple fact, what can I say. They are not better than idk Judit Polgar because they are a man, but they have an advantage.

[Planets and Systems]

I am not sure why there is a men’s chess and women’s chess in the first place.

The separation has been defended by women, who claim that “without the prize money, even less women would join the sport”.

[Alvecia]

I am not sure why there is a men’s chess and women’s chess in the first place.

The separation has been defended by women, who claim that “without the prize money, even less women would join the sport”.

Women famously don't get involved in hobbies unless there is monetary gain.

[Unogonduria]

I get why they'd be banned from physical sports, but why chess?