[SPLIT] UWO/Greater Ordena

[The Ice States]

Why was Greater Ordena deleted yet again?

[United Calanworie]

Why was Greater Ordena deleted yet again?

They're a player who has received prior punishment (including nation deletion) for Nazi theming of their nation. They then themed this new nation after Nazi Germany. As such, they were deleted.

[Castille de Italia]

Why was Greater Ordena deleted yet again?

They're a player who has received prior punishment (including nation deletion) for Nazi theming of their nation. They then themed this new nation after Nazi Germany. As such, they were deleted.

I mean that’s pretty crazy because I spent a great deal of time speaking with UWO/Greater Ordena last night to help rebrand away from the Nazi aspect because apparently it is verboten to RP as Nazis anymore, so far as to specifically get rid of terms that M/A apparently associates with Nazis; Wehrmacht, Reich, Führer, et cetera.

Given that UWO made those changes yesterday, if what he changed it to TO SPECIFICALLY AVOID running afoul of Moderation appears to being glorifying Nazis, then it’s just plain ridiculous. The color red or the German language must be solely attributed to glorifying Nazism now.

[The Macabees]

They're a player who has received prior punishment (including nation deletion) for Nazi theming of their nation. They then themed this new nation after Nazi Germany. As such, they were deleted.

Wasn't the previous deletion for using literal Nazi symbology in their factbooks and posts? For which I see the rationale. I did not enjoy opening their posts at work.

But he avoided those elements in his rebuild. His in-character country is a Nazi government (he was in the process of completely rebranding away from that even in-character) but stripped of all the visual symbology, to abide by the rules for which his original nation was deleted.

Edit: Would this have been avoided had he been themed on fascist Italy or Spain?

[United Calanworie]

I'll start with the bookkeeping note that this thread has been split off in order to not threadjack the discussion thread about a broader topic.

They're a player who has received prior punishment (including nation deletion) for Nazi theming of their nation. They then themed this new nation after Nazi Germany. As such, they were deleted.

I mean that’s pretty crazy because I spent a great deal of time speaking with UWO/Greater Ordena last night to help rebrand away from the Nazi aspect because apparently it is verboten to RP as Nazis anymore, so far as to specifically get rid of terms that M/A apparently associates with Nazis; Wehrmacht, Reich, Führer, et cetera.

Given that UWO made those changes yesterday, if what he changed it to TO SPECIFICALLY AVOID running afoul of Moderation appears to being glorifying Nazis, then it’s just plain ridiculous. The color red or the German language must be solely attributed to glorifying Nazism now.

There were references/usage to/of the following:
- Oberkommando des Wehrmacht
- Wehrmacht
- National Socialist Party
- Reichskommissariat Dietsland
- Waffen-SS
- Shutzstaffel

None of those (with the possible exception of Wehrmacht) have any use other than *very specifically* calling out to Nazi Germany and the history thereof. With his prior history of roleplaying as a Nazi, he was deleted. He is welcome to file an appeal, quite obviously.

[Castille de Italia]

I'll start with the bookkeeping note that this thread has been split off in order to not threadjack the discussion thread about a broader topic.

I mean that’s pretty crazy because I spent a great deal of time speaking with UWO/Greater Ordena last night to help rebrand away from the Nazi aspect because apparently it is verboten to RP as Nazis anymore, so far as to specifically get rid of terms that M/A apparently associates with Nazis; Wehrmacht, Reich, Führer, et cetera.

Given that UWO made those changes yesterday, if what he changed it to TO SPECIFICALLY AVOID running afoul of Moderation appears to being glorifying Nazis, then it’s just plain ridiculous. The color red or the German language must be solely attributed to glorifying Nazism now.

There were references/usage to/of the following:
- Oberkommando des Wehrmacht
- Wehrmacht
- National Socialist Party
- Reichskommissariat Dietsland
- Waffen-SS
- Shutzstaffel

None of those (with the possible exception of Wehrmacht) have any use other than *very specifically* calling out to Nazi Germany and the history thereof. With his prior history of roleplaying as a Nazi, he was deleted. He is welcome to file an appeal, quite obviously.

Which we, ever since this bullshit began over Kraven, recognize. That’s why we’ve worked with UWO to remove those references. If you go look at the most recent post he made, a news post, UWO made IC mentions to those terms being replaced with terms that OOC we as a community felt would be more amenable and would satiate Moderation.

So are you now saying that players cannot even utter those terms at all? Because again, we worked with UWO to try and rebrand his nation to satiate M/A before he got deleted, which apparently was fruitless because he got deleted now for trying to do the right thing.

[The Macabees]

- Oberkommando des Wehrmacht
- Wehrmacht
- National Socialist Party
- Reichskommissariat Dietsland
- Waffen-SS
- Shutzstaffel

None of those (with the possible exception of Wehrmacht) have any use other than *very specifically* calling out to Nazi Germany and the history thereof. With his prior history of roleplaying as a Nazi, he was deleted. He is welcome to file an appeal, quite obviously.

Are players who RPd with UWO at risk for deletion for mentioning any of those terms in their RPs in reference to the Ordenite military or government? Hopefully not for something as inoffensive as Wehrmacht (not a term specific to Nazi Germany).

[United Calanworie]

Which we, ever since this bullshit began over Kraven, recognize. That’s why we’ve worked with UWO to remove those references. If you go look at the most recent post he made, a news post, UWO made IC mentions to those terms being replaced with terms that OOC we as a community felt would be more amenable and would satiate Moderation.

So are you now saying that players cannot even utter those terms at all? Because again, we worked with UWO to try and rebrand his nation to satiate M/A before he got deleted, which apparently was fruitless because he got deleted now for trying to do the right thing.

I read the news post. The issue at hand here is very specifically due to the fact that UWO is aware of our rules on Nazi content, has had a nation deleted in the past for glorifying Nazis, and proceeded to flavor his new nation (until yesterday) as a Nazi. Had he started off his new account with no Nazi flavoring after having been deleted for Nazi roleplaying, he would have been fine.

This is not a new approach to rules enforcement, this is very much a "we drew a line in the sand in 2021, this player crossed that line, got punished, and then crossed it again" type of situation.

[United Calanworie]

- Oberkommando des Wehrmacht
- Wehrmacht
- National Socialist Party
- Reichskommissariat Dietsland
- Waffen-SS
- Shutzstaffel

None of those (with the possible exception of Wehrmacht) have any use other than *very specifically* calling out to Nazi Germany and the history thereof. With his prior history of roleplaying as a Nazi, he was deleted. He is welcome to file an appeal, quite obviously.

Are players who RPd with UWO at risk for deletion for mentioning any of those terms in their RPs in reference to the Ordenite military or government? Hopefully not for something as inoffensive as Wehrmacht (not a term specific to Nazi Germany).

I seriously doubt it.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

The still visible trading card shows off a Nazi themed flag. This player gets no sympathy from me, my criticism of moderation notwithstanding.

[Castille de Italia]

Which we, ever since this bullshit began over Kraven, recognize. That’s why we’ve worked with UWO to remove those references. If you go look at the most recent post he made, a news post, UWO made IC mentions to those terms being replaced with terms that OOC we as a community felt would be more amenable and would satiate Moderation.

So are you now saying that players cannot even utter those terms at all? Because again, we worked with UWO to try and rebrand his nation to satiate M/A before he got deleted, which apparently was fruitless because he got deleted now for trying to do the right thing.

I read the news post. The issue at hand here is very specifically due to the fact that UWO is aware of our rules on Nazi content, has had a nation deleted in the past for glorifying Nazis, and proceeded to flavor his new nation (until yesterday) as a Nazi. Had he started off his new account with no Nazi flavoring after having been deleted for Nazi roleplaying, he would have been fine.

This is not a new approach to rules enforcement, this is very much a "we drew a line in the sand in 2021, this player crossed that line, got punished, and then crossed it again" type of situation.

Since you wish to reference the 2021 change in policy, can you point to exactly where in UWO's nation name, slogan, custom fields, etc where it glorified Nazism? It appears there wouldn't have been anything that would have insinuated UWO's second nation being inherently a Nazi nation. I have a sneaking suspicion that his previous flag (before he changed it to one that looked like Van Halen's logo, looked pretty fuckin tight) might have been found objectionable by a moderator, but it's no different than current official depictions used by the modern Bundeswehr. For instance, when I was in the Marine Corps I did a six-month exchange with the Heer, and was assigned to Gebirgsjagerbrigade 23 in Bad Reichenhall, specifically Hochstaufen-Kaserne, I found that Nazi-era symbols have been adapted for modern use. The main administrative building at Hochstaufen-Kaserne is adorned with an ornate stone eagle in the same fashion of the same eagle used during the Third Reich, well because the garrison was built during the Third Reich. What did the Germans do to comply with Denazification but preserve an ornate stone work? They carved an Edelweiss into the center and removed the swastika. UWO's old flag used the same eagle, with a cross in the middle, not an Iron Cross (still used by the modern Bundeswehr), not a Totenkopf, not a Valknut, just a simple cross. I wouldn't call it a Balkenkreuz, and I'm a reasonable person.

I'm also not reading anything in the 2021 policy that states there is a blanket ban on RPing as a Nazi nation, nor using words emblematic of the Third Reich for RP purposes. I'm also not reading that in the 2013 Site policy on malicious content, which says "Similarly, there is no ban on mentioning Nazis, or Hitler, or espousing ideological beliefs. However, a nation made up as a cookie-cutter Nazi Germany in its name, region, and custom fields (e.g. motto, currency), with no contrary context or redeeming content, is hard to interpret as anything other than an endorsement of that real-life nation's most well-known acts." The 2013 policy nor the 2021 policy state that the use of terms similarly used during the Third Reich in forumside posts is verboten. It does not say there is a blanket ban on RPing Nazi nations, and RPing Nazi nations is not inherently the glorification of Nazism.

Furthermore, let's break down some of the words UWO was using before he was deleted. Wehrmact: designation for the German military since the 1849 Frankfurt constitution; not exclusive to Nazi Germany. National Socialist Party: national socialism is exclusive to Nazism, though there is to my understanding no blanket ban on RPing or mentioning this term. Reichkommissariat: an administrative division, also used informally during the German Empire ("second Reich"). Dietsland: term for the Netherlands, just German sounding so bad?

I won't bother breaking down the last two, we obviously know those are directly connected to the Third Reich. Nonetheless, there is to my understanding not a blanket ban on using those terms nor RPing as a Nazi nation. That was the precedent until November 2021, when Crazy girl deleted UWO the first time around for using swastikas, which was specifically against site rules. Since then, I see nothing that UWO has used that directly glorifies Nazism.

I'd also argue that this is redeeming content. Just like Schindler's List is a very impactful movie by showing the immolation at Płaszów, showing the real horrors of the Holocaust, UWO demonstrates the inhumanity of intolerance through roleplaying as a genocidal nation that has been largely the adversary to everyone he has RPed with since 2011. It is important to understand that things like the Holocaust happened, and on a website where nations are engaging in international diplomacy, there will be nations that are bad actors. Forcing them not to be because "Nazis bad" and pretending the world IRL is a cookie-cutter hunky dory world is a load of bullshit, especially when it's just to save Max Barry from a lawsuit, which shouldn't even be necessary when the Terms and Conditions literally state "Should you breach these terms and conditions you agree to indemnify NationStates, Max Barry, and any and all employees, agents, administrators, moderators, volunteers, and affiliates associated with NationStates.net from and against any and all third party claims, demands, liabilities, costs or expenses, including reasonable legal fees." Max Barry, whom I understand hasn't had much to do with the site in years now, isn't gonna be footing the bill for his legal troubles; the user who prompted them is going to be.

I really want M/A here to say that UWO's RPing isn't redeeming content. Please say it, because that's what you're saying by deleting his nation when there was no direct violations of the 2013 or 2021 policies.

I would like to ask who was the moderator that deleted UWO/Greater Ordena today, in the interests of transparency.

Are players who RPd with UWO at risk for deletion for mentioning any of those terms in their RPs in reference to the Ordenite military or government? Hopefully not for something as inoffensive as Wehrmacht (not a term specific to Nazi Germany).

I seriously doubt it.

Translation: "The goalposts constantly move, and so you MIGHT get deleted later down the road."

Anyways, I'll sum it up. Tl;dr: there is nothing in the rules stating RPing as a Nazi nation or using those words is banned, and arguing that it glorifies Nazism by doing so is just yet again M/A kneeling down on the RP community's neck.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

If he themed his nation after Nazi Germany, then he violated site rules. There is a ban on Nazi themed nations and regions, so he should have thought twice before setting that as his national flag then no doubt putting Nazi related content in his profile fields and factbooks.

[Castille de Italia]

If he themed his nation after Nazi Germany, then he violated site rules. There is a ban on Nazi themed nations and regions, so he should have thought twice before setting that as his national flag then no doubt putting Nazi related content in his profile fields and factbooks.

Apparently you didn't read the above. There was nothing in his custom fields inherently Nazi-themed.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

If he themed his nation after Nazi Germany, then he violated site rules. There is a ban on Nazi themed nations and regions, so he should have thought twice before setting that as his national flag then no doubt putting Nazi related content in his profile fields and factbooks.

Apparently you didn't read the above. There was nothing in his custom fields inherently Nazi-themed.

From what you claimed, there were none that you know of, but lets be honest, there probably was something on gameside that gave the impression that it was a Nazi nation.

Despite the example of the building you gave, that flag is also questionable in and of itself.

[United Calanworie]

I don't have a particularly large amount of time right now to address every single point in your post (another moderator may), but please do not be disingenuous by splitting "reichkommissariat dietsland" into two terms, when I very specifically called out the words combined. A quick google search provides you with this Wikipedia article as the top result. It's a specific reference to the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands, not an administrative division (comma) the Netherlands (period).

I really want M/A here to say that UWO's RPing isn't redeeming content. Please say it, because that's what you're saying by deleting his nation when there was no direct violations of the 2013 or 2021 policies.

Sure, I'll be blunt. Roleplaying as a Nazi is not redeeming content. Play evil nations! Play genocidal dictatorships!* Do all of those things. You are free to do so. The single, simplest, easiest way to not get deleted as a Nazi is to not be a Nazi.

I would like to ask who was the moderator that deleted UWO/Greater Ordena today, in the interests of transparency.

Three game moderators agreed to the deletion before it was enacted. I'll put myself on record as one of the three.
EDIT: It is somewhat of an academic point as to who clicked the button.

Translation: "The goalposts constantly move, and so you MIGHT get deleted later down the road."

More a translation of "I'm not going to issue a blanket ruling on things that I've never looked at before in my life, and will instead try to deliver as much accuracy in my statement as possible while also not excluding action for any actual rulebreaking content."

(the following came through while I was writing this post)

Apparently you didn't read the above. There was nothing in his custom fields inherently Nazi-themed.

Well...

Slogan: A State that will last a thousand years.

And yes, that was edited to that yesterday. Presumably (I could go dig further, but I'm not going to) it was changed from "reich" or similar in an effort to meet the "denazification" that you were referencing in your earlier post.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

The single, simplest, easiest way to not get deleted as a Nazi is to not be a Nazi.

[Nilokeras]

More a translation of "I'm not going to issue a blanket ruling on things that I've never looked at before in my life, and will instead try to deliver as much accuracy in my statement as possible while also not excluding action for any actual rulebreaking content."

I mean regardless of the specifics of UWO's deletion I think this is a problem right here - the mod team has indicated that there are wide-ranging conversations going on about Kraven and Nazi RP content more generally and are, understandably, being tight-lipped about it right now. That's fine, these things take a while to shake out.

To be a little blunt I think deleting them now, while all that is being discussed, while it was openly acknowledged that UWO was trying to be in compliance with the rules, and while people have pointed out extensively in the other thread how difficult it is to parse the two existing and not centralized sets of rulings is probably not the way to handle this situation if you want to get community buy-in to this process.

[Castille de Italia]

Apparently you didn't read the above. There was nothing in his custom fields inherently Nazi-themed.

From what you claimed, there were none that you know of, but lets be honest, there probably was something on gameside that gave the impression that it was a Nazi nation.

Despite the example of the building you gave, that flag is also questionable in and of itself.

I am a reasonable person, and I don't make an immediate connection to Nazism based off of that. I, as a reasonable person, would argue you would have to stretch the limits of imagination to immediately connect that to Nazism.

I don't have a particularly large amount of time right now to address every single point in your post (another moderator may), but please do not be disingenuous by splitting "reichkommissariat dietsland" into two terms, when I very specifically called out the words combined. A quick google search provides you with this Wikipedia article as the top result. It's a specific reference to the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands, not an administrative division (comma) the Netherlands (period).

I was not being intentionally disingenuous. Sorry if it appeared that way.

Sure, I'll be blunt. Roleplaying as a Nazi is not redeeming content. Play evil nations! Play genocidal dictatorships!* Do all of those things. You are free to do so. The single, simplest, easiest way to not get deleted as a Nazi is to not be a Nazi.

So RPing as ISIS, the Confederacy, the Soviet Union under Stalin, slavery, et cetera is all redeeming content? Again, I think it's the context of how the writer is actually RPing, and if they're doing in a way that demonstrates that no, this is not something that you would want to condone in real life. UWO's writing has never struck me as saying "hell yeah, we need to gas all these jews" but more as a commentary on the dangers of adhering to ideologies based on intolerance and hate. I am a reasonable person, and that's how I've always interpreted his writing.

Three game moderators agreed to the deletion before it was enacted. I'll put myself on record as one of the three.

I respect you for going on record stating you did. I highly disagree with your decision on it, but at least you had the integrity to say you were one of the ones. I'd still like for the other two to be named, in the interests of transparency.

More a translation of "I'm not going to issue a blanket ruling on things that I've never looked at before in my life, and will instead try to deliver as much accuracy in my statement as possible while also not excluding action for any actual rulebreaking content."

I say the goalposts were moved because it seems that they have been. Again, the 2013 or 2021 policies do not expressly forbid the use of Nazi-used terms, nor is there a ban on RPing as Nazis. With Kraven's deletion, it appears the goalposts were moved towards a ban on RPing Nazi nations (even if Kraven's inherently was not), with no public notice in the change in policy.

Well...

Slogan: A State that will last a thousand years.

And yes, that was edited to that yesterday. Presumably (I could go dig further, but I'm not going to) it was changed from "reich" or similar in an effort to meet the "denazification" that you were referencing in your earlier post.

I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'll be glad to here. I can see how a reasonable person can draw a connection to the "thousand-year reich."

All that being said, I don't like Nazism personally, in fact I really despise it having Jewish ancestry maternally with family who survived Treblinka, but I can see the value in artistic expression to serve as a commentary on the dangers of it. I don't interpret UWO's writing as the glorification of Nazism, having known him for well over a decade now, and I don't and never have perceived him to be acting with malicious intent. At the end of the day, I make these points because I don't want to see UWO's actual character be generalized as being a Nazi sympathizer by M/A collectively, or by a select few moderators.

More a translation of "I'm not going to issue a blanket ruling on things that I've never looked at before in my life, and will instead try to deliver as much accuracy in my statement as possible while also not excluding action for any actual rulebreaking content."

I mean regardless of the specifics of UWO's deletion I think this is a problem right here - the mod team has indicated that there are wide-ranging conversations going on about Kraven and Nazi RP content more generally and are, understandably, being tight-lipped about it right now. That's fine, these things take a while to shake out.

To be a little blunt I think deleting them now, while all that is being discussed, while it was openly acknowledged that UWO was trying to be in compliance with the rules, and while people have pointed out extensively in the other thread how difficult it is to parse the two existing and not centralized sets of rulings is probably not the way to handle this situation if you want to get community buy-in to this process.

I think Nilokeras makes a fair point; UWO was trying to be in compliance with what appears (at least to me, a reasonable person) to be the new standard, and was deleted. The 100 year slogan you got me, but that would be an easy fix, a moderator could have looked at it and just simply edited the field and said "no, that's not acceptable" via TG, which would have been a more constructive approach given the current animosity from the RP community towards moderation.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

I am a reasonable person, and I don't make an immediate connection to Nazism based off of that.

I'm a reasonable person too, and I do.

[Diarcesia]

So RPing as ISIS, the Confederacy, the Soviet Union under Stalin, slavery, et cetera is all redeeming content? Again, I think it's the context of how the writer is actually RPing, and if they're doing in a way that demonstrates that no, this is not something that you would want to condone in real life. UWO's writing has never struck me as saying "hell yeah, we need to gas all these jews" but more as a commentary on the dangers of adhering to ideologies based on intolerance and hate. I am a reasonable person, and that's how I've always interpreted his writing.

Whether Nazi RP is prescriptive or descriptive, NS prohibits those types of nations. Why Nazis only? My understanding is that the mods were fed up enough with dealing with troublemakers from these nations. Nazism is a magnet for edgelords and downright vile people, far more than RPers of ISIS, the Confederacy, the Soviet Union under Stalin, and slavery combined. Like it or not, it's a case of "thanks to them, we can't RP Nazi nations anymore"

Rationale behind the rule change:

What Has Changed & Why
(1) We've added "nazi" to the list of blocked words that cannot be used in a name when creating a nation or region. This was actually the case previously, but the word was removed from the blocklist in 2016 as some players wanted to use it in benign contexts (such as "Alliance Against Nazis"). From 2016 to now, it was not auto-blocked, but instead those nations were manually assessed by moderators. The block is returning because it led to policy violations slipping under the radar.

Additionally, many "trophy" regions have been captured over the years by gameplay groups who oppose nazi-style ideologies, and while these regions now have no malicious intent, they probably appear malicious to people who see their names and never click through to examine their details. The new word block means these regions can be allowed to expire, as opposed to the previous situation where they had to be held indefinitely to prevent another player from refounding them.

(2) When determining whether a nation or region violates site policy, we now judge names on their own, regardless of context. This is a change because previously we've looked at the entire package of a nation or region to judge its name in context with its flag and other custom fields. The problem with this practice is that moderators primarily examine nations and regions when they are first created, and so sometimes nations or regions pass muster at first, then later, away from moderator scrutiny, adopt a more malicious context via flags, slogans, and other custom fields.

[Mallorea and Riva]

This almost immediately veered into 3rd party appeal territory, which we do not permit. The player in question can appeal the deletion if they so choose. Question asked and answered, iLock.