by GCMG » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:54 am
by Eternal Algerstonia » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:55 am
by Neoncomplexultra » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:13 am
by Vivida Vis Animi » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:56 am
by GCMG » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:19 am
Vivida Vis Animi wrote:I don't know how to describe it, but this OP reads like it was written by procedural generation. It's paragraphs of ramblings whose ending question does not relate to in any way to its contents. Also, you didn't provide an opinion OP. I think. Again, this reads like drunk ChatGPT article.
Neoncomplexultra wrote:what is your question?
by Fractalnavel » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:52 am
Vivida Vis Animi wrote:I don't know how to describe it, but this OP reads like it was written by procedural generation. It's paragraphs of ramblings whose ending question does not relate to in any way to its contents. Also, you didn't provide an opinion OP. I think. Again, this reads like drunk ChatGPT article.
by Restored New England » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:55 am
by Neoncomplexultra » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:00 am
GCMG wrote:[*]Premise: education has moved away from emphasizing competition between pupils
GCMG wrote:[*]Premise: this change has been to avoid pupils from internalizing low expectations
GCMG wrote:[*]Argument: people whose reach exceeds their grasp might become anxious because of their inability to fulfil their high expectations
GCMG wrote:[*]Evidence: people seem to be more anxious now
GCMG wrote:[*]Question: does this chain of reasoning have any merit to it?
by GCMG » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:46 am
this change has the effect of causing pupils to internalize fixed expectations. whether or not these expectations are low or high will depend on the pupil. for smarter pupils, this change has caused them to internalize low expectations, by imposing average expectations upon them instead of allowing them to dynamically determine their capacity through competition.
also, here you meant to write, "to prevent pupils from". the word "avoid" is not used with "from"
GCMG wrote:[*]Argument: people whose reach exceeds their grasp might become anxious because of their inability to fulfil their high expectations
to the extent that this is comprehensible, this is true. however, it is not an argument, it is a premise. it is a premise and not an argument because it does not rely on the previous premises; it would be true in any world in which the previous premises were true or false or in any other state.
also, here you meant to write something other than, "whose reach exceeds their grasp". this expression does not make sense as an allegory. if you can reach something, you can grasp it; if you can grasp something, you have reached it. reach and grasp are equivalent in range, unless you count reaching and only touching with the tips of the fingers, in which case reach always exceeds grasp.
GCMG wrote:[*]Evidence: people seem to be more anxious now
this is true, but it is not evidence for any point. this is true independently of the previous points. it is a fact that people are more anxious now. there are many inputs into population anxiety, and many forces which determine people's expectations of themselves and satisfaction which achievement which are outside of the education system.
GCMG wrote:[*]Question: does this chain of reasoning have any merit to it?
this is not a chain of reasoning and it is without merit. your capacity to use the english language to describe chains of reasoning is mediocre, please deal with it.
by DutchFormosa » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:50 am
by Umeria » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:53 am
GCMG wrote:
- Premise: education has moved away from emphasising competition between pupils
- Premise: this change has been to avoid pupils from internalising low expectations
- Argument: people whose reach exceeds their grasp might become anxious because of their inability to fulfil their high expectations
- Evidence: people seem to be more anxious now
- Question: does this chain of reasoning have any merit to it?
by Nilokeras » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:54 am
by Vivida Vis Animi » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:57 am
GCMG wrote:Vivida Vis Animi wrote:I don't know how to describe it, but this OP reads like it was written by procedural generation. It's paragraphs of ramblings whose ending question does not relate to in any way to its contents. Also, you didn't provide an opinion OP. I think. Again, this reads like drunk ChatGPT article.
What? How does the ending question "does this argument make any kind of sense?" not relate to the preceding argument?
by GCMG » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:13 am
Umeria wrote:GCMG wrote:
- Premise: education has moved away from emphasising competition between pupils
- Premise: this change has been to avoid pupils from internalising low expectations
- Argument: people whose reach exceeds their grasp might become anxious because of their inability to fulfil their high expectations
- Evidence: people seem to be more anxious now
- Question: does this chain of reasoning have any merit to it?
Reducing emphasis on competition means that expectations carry less social stigma, meaning that not fulfilling those expectations causes less anxiety not more. So the answer to 5 is no.
by GCMG » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:31 am
Vivida Vis Animi wrote:GCMG wrote:
What? How does the ending question "does this argument make any kind of sense?" not relate to the preceding argument?
For my sake, let's pretend the question "this getting rid of pirates causes global warming or is there some actual merit to this argument?" is beyond comprehension for me. Can you attempt to simplify your question and line of reasoning? As "does this argument make any kind of sense" has a more straightforward answer of "no," but that reasoning being in the argument's presentation more so than anything else.
Nilokeras wrote:We don't have a good baseline for how prior generations felt so it's difficult to say with any certainty that people are more anxious now than they were in the past.
As someone who works in university education teaching first year students I think it's also difficult to argue that the current model of schooling - with grades, set courses, etc - does much good. New university students struggle very hard at doing any kind of work that requires critical thinking, interpreting guidelines on their own or being otherwise self-motivated. They also tend to be fixated on grades and every new cohort of fist years in my Biology 101 course has a few of them who will come into office hours after every assignment (notably not before, mind you) and argue about their grades. Even more of them will argue over email. Grades are the only way they know how to measure their own progress and self-worth, and that first C+ on a paper after being a straight A student all through high school shatters them.
It takes an awful lot of suffering and re-writing all their learning strategies/ways of working for students to pull out of this mindset, sometimes over the course of years, and we have to spend that time outside of teaching them technical skills helping them do it. It's an incredible waste of everyone's time and energy.
by Umeria » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:36 am
GCMG wrote:Umeria wrote:Reducing emphasis on competition means that expectations carry less social stigma, meaning that not fulfilling those expectations causes less anxiety not more. So the answer to 5 is no.
I don't think the problem with expectations is social stigma. The fact that the problem is about internalising expectations to me suggests social stigma has nothing to do with it.
It has been pointed out that the argument does not rest on the premises it is said to rest on. This may be your problem. I will try again:
1. people have expectations about themselves
2. when people cannot fulfil these expectations of themselves, they become anxious
by GCMG » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:50 am
Umeria wrote:GCMG wrote:I don't think the problem with expectations is social stigma. The fact that the problem is about internalising expectations to me suggests social stigma has nothing to do with it.
It has been pointed out that the argument does not rest on the premises it is said to rest on. This may be your problem. I will try again:
1. people have expectations about themselves
2. when people cannot fulfil these expectations of themselves, they become anxious
I'm gonna stop you right there. Failing to accomplish something only hurts your mental health if you placed a lot of self-worth on it. Schools these days have been telling students that mistakes are a part of learning, it's okay if you don't get it the first time, etc. which is meant to prevent anxiety and also happens to be true. They're not giving kids high expectations to be nice to them or whatever - the expectations haven't changed much, the perceived consequences have. Anxiety only goes down from this, so the mental health problem must be from a different source.
by Libertarian Right » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:55 am
by Nilokeras » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:59 am
GCMG wrote:A flipside to the misdiagnosis thing I mentioned is that it's quite possible that we're just better at diagnosing anxiety now and, in fact, people are less anxious than ever... it just seems like people are more anxious because we're now not failing to diagnose anxiety as much as we were.
GCMG wrote:This affects teachers too. I did a marketing assignment once and I was trying to figure out why I got the mark I did. So I go to office hours and the marker was pretty much exactly like "Yeah, have some extra marks". And that was... it. I wasn't looking for more marks, I genuinely wanted to have a better understanding of the weakness of the assignment. I never got that explanation by the way but I took the extra marks. My theory is that the minor practical component was initially judged more on its execution of theory rather than demonstration of understanding of theory. I had prepared it based on the latter.
In another example for a different subject I received, from memory, 4/10. My assignment wasn't in the return box, which was at the time open air, and since it never turned up I guess it was stolen or something. Anyway, I went to see the lecturer to try and understand what was going on. He suggested I print the thing off again and he remarked it himself. 8/10. Which, frankly, made a lot more sense. I suspect what happened was that it was actually a 9/10 assignment and the original marker just misread their handwritten 9 as a 4 when doing the data entry.
However, my experience is generally different to yours, i.e. the crush for office hours is before tests/exams. This may be a matter of perspective as, naturally, I was not holding office hours but going to them. But to illustrate the scale of this, I once waited for basically a whole hour, for example. I guess it's possible something similar happened with assignments but I don't remember that being the case. I would note with that first anecdote I did chalk it up the marker's being so used to people complaining about marks they didn't comprehend that wasn't my own interest. But, as I said, it's not like I complained about getting a better mark.
GCMG wrote:Do you perceive an alternative?
by Neonian Technocracy » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:03 am
Libertarian Right wrote:Alternate title: I am definitely the main character, deal with it.
by Umeria » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:09 am
GCMG wrote:Umeria wrote:I'm gonna stop you right there. Failing to accomplish something only hurts your mental health if you placed a lot of self-worth on it. Schools these days have been telling students that mistakes are a part of learning, it's okay if you don't get it the first time, etc. which is meant to prevent anxiety and also happens to be true. They're not giving kids high expectations to be nice to them or whatever - the expectations haven't changed much, the perceived consequences have. Anxiety only goes down from this, so the mental health problem must be from a different source.
I don't think they're succeeding. Like, at all.
Have you ever heard of whole of language (apparently it's "whole language")? That's screwed a whole generation of kids over. Schools kept doing it. The theory is well meaning but that doesn't mean it works.
The fact of trying doesn't mean what they're trying is succeeding.
In fact, I'd argue that this theory is just fundamentally flawed. I don't think you can not become stressed if you can't do something you feel you should be able to. I'm not sure that self worth has much to do with it. I don't care that I can't remember how to solve sequences in the abstract (albeit, in part because I believe the vast, vast majority of people can't either), but I do care when I encounter them that I can't remember how to do it. I know I can't remember and I believe hardly anyone can, but it's still frustrating that I don't remember. It is, in fact, more true to say that my sense of self is predicated on the idea that I'm a person who can't remember how to do sequences and series than anything else. Not being able to? Still frustrating.
by Neoncomplexultra » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:37 pm
GCMG wrote:1. people have expectations about themselves
2. when people cannot fulfil these expectations of themselves, they become anxious
3. people base their expectations on what they're told is possible
4. but they also base these expectations on what they experience at school
5. in a school system that creates competition between pupils, some pupils are told they are mediocre or incompetent and thus have low expectations of themselves
6. low expectations are easily met
7. in a school system that is designed to avoid having pupils internalise low expectations of themselves, pupils come to have high expectations of themselves regardless of their ability to meet those expectations
8. some people are more able to meet high expectations than others
9. school systems have been increasingly geared to preventing the internalisation of low expectations
10. therefore, there should be more people with expectations of themselves greater than what they're able to achieve
11. therefore, there should be more stressed people
12. there are more stressed people
by Thermodolia » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:55 pm
Vivida Vis Animi wrote:I don't know how to describe it, but this OP reads like it was written by procedural generation. It's paragraphs of ramblings whose ending question does not relate to in any way to its contents. Also, you didn't provide an opinion OP. I think. Again, this reads like drunk ChatGPT article.
by Valles Marineris Mining co » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:59 pm
by The Grand Fifth Imperium » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:09 pm
Neoncomplexultra wrote:GCMG wrote:1. people have expectations about themselves
2. when people cannot fulfil these expectations of themselves, they become anxious
3. people base their expectations on what they're told is possible
4. but they also base these expectations on what they experience at school
5. in a school system that creates competition between pupils, some pupils are told they are mediocre or incompetent and thus have low expectations of themselves
6. low expectations are easily met
7. in a school system that is designed to avoid having pupils internalise low expectations of themselves, pupils come to have high expectations of themselves regardless of their ability to meet those expectations
8. some people are more able to meet high expectations than others
9. school systems have been increasingly geared to preventing the internalisation of low expectations
10. therefore, there should be more people with expectations of themselves greater than what they're able to achieve
11. therefore, there should be more stressed people
12. there are more stressed people
your first entry i would fail from english class, for this one i would give you a medicore grade.
i will help the other people in this thread by translating from your private language into english:
"By creating a non-competitive academic environment in which "everybody is a winner", has our society created a generation of students who expect to always succeed, and so do not know how to predict failure, deal with failure, or to come to terms with the fact when they are not as successful as other people in the real world?"
"If so, what have been the consequences of this mindset? Has this resulted in people being more stressed, or anxious? What other results may there be?"
compared to what you wrote, this is much better. not only is this much more concise but the question is more interesting: stress and anxiety have too many inputs, but this mindset could be responsible for social phenomena of irrational economic decisions, such as the decision of students to enroll in a course of study that they will drop out of, which is good for the university business model but which is a waste of the time of young people.
the next time you want me to teach you your native language you will have to pay me money. i accept bitcoin.
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