Negligence of Inclusion vs. Proper Attribution

[France Europe]

This is a joint statement by members of Liberty Democratic Alliance, the Frontier Sea and the organizer of Jellyfish Elite Fighting Force (United Democratic Christian States), whose effort in the Global Trade Fair was unrecognized in the News event summary and given very limited visibility by the platform.

Inclusivity is not a forte of NationStates. Recognition of minor regions is hardly on the agenda, and this pervades even after a global event, during which such regions have a chance to excel, compete in the world stage, and improve their visibility, by receiving deserved props.
In the News Page and anywhere else aside from the Global Trade Fair Leaderboards, the achievement of the minor regions and their key players was diminished and excluded. In such important events for the platform, it should be proud to cherish these results, not hide or neglect to mention them. Therefore, we have brought them to you as a mark of the extraordinary work done by key players, whose sacrifice was never acknowledged.

Liberty Democratic Alliance: 3333 Gold Bullion.
New record of all stashed products in Gold Bullion (1101 more than last year's record by Suspicious in Uranium).
The largest margin of difference by the three "different regions" that achieved first place, with 1195 Gold Bullion above 2nd place, in contrast to Max's affirmation that Lily "came pretty close to a clean sweep".
Contributions by major player Republic of Mesque and subsidiaries with a total of 2849 Gold Bullion (in contrast to Lily's total of 2138).

Jellyfish Elite Fighting Force: 2766 Uranium.
A margin of difference of 629 Uranium above 2nd place.
Contributions by major players of United Front/Divide subsidiaries (1082), Bendicion and subsidiaries (468).

The Frontier Sea: 2035 Sticky Labels.
A margin of difference of 526 Sticky Labels above 2nd place.
Contributions by major player Diatian Isles with a total of 1897 Sticky Labels (in contrast to Lily's total of 1509).

As well as the combined efforts of participating members of the three regions, to finally achieve the numbers highlighted. A full overview, kindly tallied and provided by Diatian Isles, is available here.

The statement by Max in the News, while we believe was not intentionally reductive, did fail to present the success outlined above to the wider NationStates community. We believe that this herculean effort is not something to be held in contempt, as many of us have taken their time of rest or work to participate in an event that offered an opportunity to promote our communities. This effort achieved little to no reward, as the platform did not take any of the above data in account. The nations involved and their regions were let down as the sacrifices exerted by these players were never outlined, except in a now obscure and archived leaderboard.

We would also like to point out that this statement in no way seeks to belittle Lily's victory in the event - we congratulate them on their achievement. In fact, we also believe that the five key players of that region deserve the utmost respect and also a proper analysis that fittingly highlights their achievements.

In conclusion, we want to believe that NationStates has a commitment with the recognition of the deeds of its players, and that the results presented in the data we compiled are not meaningless or unworthy of a commemorative citation. We request that data be better analyzed in future events, so that extraordinary effort is properly investigated, mentioned and rewarded. We want to believe there is not a systemic demeanor that is dismissive to players, which, despite statistically significant achievements, have had or will have their manifestations disdained by others, as we have seen happen in other instances of these Forums.

We are available to further discuss this with the moderation team and give any other suggestions regarding the proper recognition of these results - if not for this event, then, hopefully, for the future.

[Republic of Mesque]

I wanted to personally add my personal side to this statement.
First, I would like to explain that we have adopted an identity in our region which is deeply connected with "Gold", due to our unexpected success in the previous Global Trade Fair, when we achieved second place. This year, I wanted our region to be more successful. Of course, we aimed for first place.
As the data shows, I fought very hard for my region. I took away my weekend of rest from the hospital where I work 11 hours on weekdays as a doctor to ensure our success. I wanted our region to be meaningful in the "multiverse" and be graced for our success.
I felt let down, as if my "extended shift" was for naught. I wrote to the moderation and they requested a post to the Forums. When I contacted other nations from the other regions that also got first place, I found that this feeling was not only mine. Therefore, we have brought you this statement. I believe in inclusivity on NationStates and I'm willing to work with the moderation to improve this.
If there is no recognition of players' efforts, what incentive there will be to even participate in gameside events?
Thank you for bearing with me.

[Querria]

This is a joint statement by members of Liberty Democratic Alliance, the Frontier Sea and the organizer of Jellyfish Elite Fighting Force (United Democratic Christian States), whose effort in the Global Trade Fair was unrecognized in the News event summary and given very limited visibility by the platform.

Inclusivity is not a forte of NationStates. Recognition of minor regions is hardly on the agenda, and this pervades even after a global event, during which such regions have a chance to excel, compete in the world stage, and improve their visibility, by receiving deserved props.
In the News Page and anywhere else aside from the Global Trade Fair Leaderboards, the achievement of the minor regions and their key players was diminished and excluded. In such important events for the platform, it should be proud to cherish these results, not hide or neglect to mention them. Therefore, we have brought them to you as a mark of the extraordinary work done by key players, whose sacrifice was never acknowledged.

Liberty Democratic Alliance: 3333 Gold Bullion.
New record of all stashed products in Gold Bullion (1101 more than last year's record by Suspicious in Uranium).
The largest margin of difference by the three "different regions" that achieved first place, with 1195 Gold Bullion above 2nd place, in contrast to Max's affirmation that Lily "came pretty close to a clean sweep".
Contributions by major player Republic of Mesque and subsidiaries with a total of 2849 Gold Bullion (in contrast to Lily's total of 2138).

Jellyfish Elite Fighting Force: 2766 Uranium.
A margin of difference of 629 Uranium above 2nd place.
Contributions by major players of United Front/Divide subsidiaries (1082), Bendicion and subsidiaries (468).

The Frontier Sea: 2035 Sticky Labels.
A margin of difference of 526 Sticky Labels above 2nd place.
Contributions by major player Diatian Isles with a total of 1897 Sticky Labels (in contrast to Lily's total of 1509).

As well as the combined efforts of participating members of the three regions, to finally achieve the numbers highlighted. A full overview, kindly tallied and provided by Diatian Isles, is available here.

The statement by Max in the News, while we believe was not intentionally reductive, did fail to present the success outlined above to the wider NationStates community. We believe that this herculean effort is not something to be held in contempt, as many of us have taken their time of rest or work to participate in an event that offered an opportunity to promote our communities. This effort achieved little to no reward, as the platform did not take any of the above data in account. The nations involved and their regions were let down as the sacrifices exerted by these players were never outlined, except in a now obscure and archived leaderboard.

We would also like to point out that this statement in no way seeks to belittle Lily's victory in the event - we congratulate them on their achievement. In fact, we also believe that the five key players of that region deserve the utmost respect and also a proper analysis that fittingly highlights their achievements.

In conclusion, we want to believe that NationStates has a commitment with the recognition of the deeds of its players, and that the results presented in the data we compiled are not meaningless or unworthy of a commemorative citation. We request that data be better analyzed in future events, so that extraordinary effort is properly investigated, mentioned and rewarded. We want to believe there is not a systemic demeanor that is dismissive to players, which, despite statistically significant achievements, have had or will have their manifestations disdained by others, as we have seen happen in other instances of these Forums.

We are available to further discuss this with the moderation team and give any other suggestions regarding the proper recognition of these results - if not for this event, then, hopefully, for the future.

Inclusivity is not a forte of NationStates

It's ironic, considering some people of the social group that runs this game like to preach about inclusivity as a virtue, and the person in charge of the game,the most looked-upon person of this community, cannot be arsed to maintain what's theirs to their own self-established standards.

Regardless, I wish those of you seeking due recognition for your achievements good fortune. I'll be looking for the amended post in the news.

Addendum: Do not listen to naysayers below this post. You have worked hard for an accomplishment and feel like you deserve proper recognition. Nobody will advocate for your reward beside you and those you can convince through your own words.

[Sweeze]

while i do think that this year's post-trade fair announcement was a tiny bit lacking i don't think it's *that* much of a departure from how it's always been, and is really not that big of a deal. the 'recognition' of the news post really doesn't mean much whatsoever. lily got maybe 4 issue answerers out of the post that'll all be cte in 6 months, and people who care about the event know about those who prevented our clean sweep. everyone else wouldn't have cared about the news post anyways. if you want the recognition that badly, then post about it, create an engaging story behind what y'all did, etc... it's painfully obvious you've never done gameplay before this event

i will say though more published data on the events so players can create their own narratives and conclusions from events (like generally seems to be the approach, at least from my perspective as a gameplayer and n-dayer) would be lovely so i don't have to spend 3 and a half hours mashing space manually scraping nearly 12,000 pages to compile a complete dataset again ^^

[France Europe]

it's painfully obvious you've never done gameplay before this event

Thank you for your response. But, respectfully, it's precisely this kind of contempt that we denounce, the very fact that nations and communities with less experience and importance are often at best ignored, at worse mocked in NationStates.

Do we have less gameplay experience than many others? Yes, certainly. But does that take away our right to speak out and raise this sort of issue? Absolutely not.

We shouldn't hierarchize communities and minimize the importance of small ones, but rather welcome the fact that "small" communities are still so willing to take part in these events, given their chances of success, the recognition that follows, and that kind of attitude.

[Sweeze]

it's painfully obvious you've never done gameplay before this event

Thank you for your response. But, respectfully, it's precisely this kind of contempt that we denounce, the very fact that nations and communities with less experience and importance are often at best ignored, at worse mocked in NationStates.

Do we have less gameplay experience than many others? Yes, certainly. But does that take away our right to speak out and raise this sort of issue? Absolutely not.

We shouldn't hierarchize communities and minimize the importance of small ones, but rather welcome the fact that "small" communities are still so willing to take part in these events, given their chances of success, the recognition that follows, and that kind of attitude.

i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say, im not trying to hold you in contempt for not being a gameplayer. im saying this is just what gameplay is like and always has been, and events are part of gameplay. if you want to be recognized then tell people why you should be recognized, create a story out of the event that they'll remember. it's not the job of the news post to make people recognize the work you put in, thats *your* job.

[France Europe]

Thank you for your response. But, respectfully, it's precisely this kind of contempt that we denounce, the very fact that nations and communities with less experience and importance are often at best ignored, at worse mocked in NationStates.

Do we have less gameplay experience than many others? Yes, certainly. But does that take away our right to speak out and raise this sort of issue? Absolutely not.

We shouldn't hierarchize communities and minimize the importance of small ones, but rather welcome the fact that "small" communities are still so willing to take part in these events, given their chances of success, the recognition that follows, and that kind of attitude.

i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say, im not trying to hold you in contempt for not being a gameplayer. im saying this is just what gameplay is like and always has been, and events are part of gameplay. if you want to be recognized then tell people why you should be recognized, create a story out of the event that they'll remember. it's not the job of the news post to make people recognize the work you put in, thats *your* job.

We are not seeking to romanticize our actions. We just want NationStates to be more inclusive, and the visibility of all participants to be proportionate to their actions. No more, no less.

Also, I have enough of this reductive and very conservative argument in NationStates, which consists, for those who benefit from the way things are, in saying: that's the way it is and always has been. This means that anyone who questions how things work is not only portrayed as ignorant (when it comes to gameplay, for example), but also as an unreasonable agitator.

[Republic of Mesque]

it's painfully obvious you've never done gameplay before this event

if you want to be recognized then tell people why you should be recognized, create a story out of the event that they'll remember. it's not the job of the news post to make people recognize the work you put in, thats *your* job.

I fully understand this and respect your opinion, and I think we can certainly do this! However, this argument does not address what we are trying to convey here.

Also, I have enough of this reductive and very conservative argument in NationStates, which consists, for those who benefit from the way things are, in saying: that's the way it is and always has been. This means that anyone who questions how things work is not only portrayed as ignorant (when it comes to gameplay, for example), but also as an unreasonable agitator.

Indeed. I think this is spot on. I was insinuated by a member of the GA Secretariat as a "bad player" and "envious" when advocating for an improvement in clarifying the WA rules and opening up what seems like a "closed community" of regulars that frequently bashes newcomers around, oft times with limited explanations of why their proposal is illegal or bad, or how the voting system means they will never have a chance to pass it. I don't want to derail this thread, though.

Unfortunately, the Global Trade Fair is a marathon, an event that requires perseverance and demands the player to sustain their effort to succeed. I didn't use any scripts, exploits or anything of the sort. I was in front of my computer fighting for that first place. As if neglecting to even mention our region may look bad, I feel it is even worse in my case, as I was physically exerting myself for this achievement. Now, I have a reason to fear that our three regions' success, in achieving first place on a global event, may have opposed this general paradigm of NationStates. It worries me that this thread has not received at least a post of acknowledgment by the administration, so I don't even know if they have read or considered it. To me, it may seem that it was not expected or desired of us to do this, because our regions are insignificant and meaningless in the "multiverse". Therefore, it is simply best to just put them in the Leaderboards and say in a summary that "different regions" achieved first place. It is like we simply didn't deserve to be mentioned or receive anything else from the platform.

The above paragraphs are my personal view on the matter. It does not reflect what the other parties are conveying with the statement. I'm just adding to the thread discussion.

[United Democratic Christian States]

Just wanna put my 2 cents into the argument that the events are gameplay centric.

While I don’t think you could ever entirely separate the 2 because the gameplay regions almost always have major advantages. Usually either because they have a ton of both players and puppets due to their participation in things like the WA and R/D. So yes we will never be able to entirely separate them.

However, I think assuming events should just be within gameplay is more of a symptom of the problem we are trying to address. Lots of regions who don’t participate in gameplay have had varying levels of success either in small groups or by themselves in these events. However they do not get talked about at all. All the attention goes to whichever gameplay region ended up doing the overall best without any real thought if a smaller region did something of note. (IE LDA smashing a record)

Personally I think this hurts these regions, as more often than not the more successful ones in events are tight knit community’s with a vibrant culture and are places I think a lot of people on this site might want to call home if they could get some more exposure.

So rewarding these small regions with something as simple as a quick shoutout is entirely fair.

After all a lot of the players in these smaller regions have to work harder to do less as they don’t have the R/D infrastructure set up. Speaking from organizing JEFF the vast majority of our player base only had a couple to a handful of nations they could operate over the event. So IMO they’ve earned at least that

[United Democratic Christian States]

However I do also think this just maybe more of a Trade Fair problem rather than an event problem

Out of the 2 other annual events every year, winners aren’t talked about at all to my knowledge in Z-Day.

And on N-Day they do at least put up the top 10 in total score as well as the top 10 regions with the best score per capita

So I think we already have a blueprint/something to build off of to reach what we are trying to achieve

[Thorn1000]

However I do also think this just maybe more of a Trade Fair problem rather than an event problem

Out of the 2 other annual events every year, winners aren’t talked about at all to my knowledge in Z-Day.

And on N-Day they do at least put up the top 10 in total score as well as the top 10 regions with the best score per capita

So I think we already have a blueprint/something to build off of to reach what we are trying to achieve

Fwiw, the same people winning the trade fair are also the same people winning N-Day. I think that besides a “total items stashed” count, that doing a top 10 is far less feasible for the trade fair since there is no “score”

[Republic of Mesque]

Personally I think this hurts these regions, as more often than not the more successful ones in events are tight knit community’s with a vibrant culture and are places I think a lot of people on this site might want to call home if they could get some more exposure.

So rewarding these small regions with something as simple as a quick shoutout is entirely fair.

If, out of everything we have discussed in this thread, this part was considered by the admins, I would be very happy.
Letting aside any talk of trophies, medals, memorable prizes for an event achievement, which I think is not the main issue here, the regions that achieve a statistically important position deserve to be featured, even if in a brief mention.

The gameplay-focused regions will always get a shoutout. It's what they are here for, of course. When any minor party excels, we should be making it a big deal. Suspicious winning the last Global Trade Fair is very expected. Lily, a renowned raider region, is also expected to win. The same would apply to any other heavily organized gameplay region.
Now, a backwater like Liberty Democratic Alliance? That's not at all expected. It is like the organizers of the event felt it was so alien to a desired result that they didn't really know what to make of it. So all we got is an archived Leaderboard and "different regions topped the leaderboards in different items".
I hope that this discussion can open a channel between these smaller communities and the responsible for these events, to which I would add to the message: we really cared about our regions' place in the "multiverse", to the point where we have gone above and beyond to get an achievement.
If this is not something to be cherished, why should any other sidelined community sacrifice itself to be successful in a NationStates event? Is this even intended? Should the smaller, newcomer and non-gameplay regions be expected to hold a spectating role in any gameplay event?

[Sedgistan]

I doubt you'll get a response from Admin on this. You might from Chingis when he's next around (he's busy at the moment, and has been for a little while), who is the Events Development Manager, i.e. responsible for things like the Global Trade Fair.

I believe the intent is to generally move towards News post write-ups being written by staff more involved with the events (which would often by Chingis) - Chingis wrote up the Best Nation and latest N-Day events; Aav and then myself did the preceding N-Days. Admin tends only to be involved in events in a "stop the servers having a meltdown" fashion and their understanding is therefore limited to main points of the leaderboards; some mods participate quite heavily in them and are therefore better able to provide a more in-depth write up. That wasn't possible with this year's GTF as Chingis wasn't around, and I don't think we had another mod particularly involved in it.

That's not a guarantee that future News posts for events won't be written by Admin, or that News posts will cite everyone who does well - but there's more chance of it.

[Republic of Mesque]

I doubt you'll get a response from Admin on this. You might from Chingis when he's next around (he's busy at the moment, and has been for a little while), who is the Events Development Manager, i.e. responsible for things like the Global Trade Fair.
That wasn't possible with this year's GTF as Chingis wasn't around, and I don't think we had another mod particularly involved in it.

I think you have raised a very important point for improval. Of course, Chingis is the Events Development Manager and this is his attribution, but in his absence, it would be valuable to have someone else selected to investigate and report on the results. If getting the data similarly to what Diatian Isles has done is not feasible, then a simple shoutout to those that acted extraordinarily would be enough.
I particularly consider that our regions' result could be a one-time success. In my case, I don't think there's any chance of beating, say, Suspicious in the next GTF. As such, we may never achieve this same level ever again. So I'm left to lament, I feel that this year's result is a personal loss for me as I weren't able to bring to the region any attribution other than our name and a number on an archived Leaderboard Table.

I believe the intent is to generally move towards News post write-ups being written by staff more involved with the events (which would often by Chingis) - Chingis wrote up the Best Nation and latest N-Day events; Aav and then myself did the preceding N-Days. Admin tends only to be involved in events in a "stop the servers having a meltdown" fashion and their understanding is therefore limited to main points of the leaderboards; some mods participate quite heavily in them and are therefore better able to provide a more in-depth write up.

That's not a guarantee that future News posts for events won't be written by Admin, or that News posts will cite everyone who does well - but there's more chance of it.

I'm willing to take your word for change, in good faith. Even though, and I say this very respectfully, there doesn't seem to be any indication of further concern with everything that was stated and discussed here.
I thank you, personally, for clarifying, Sedgistan. I understand that this is not your attribution and that you or the admins shouldn't be dealing with this situation.
If possible, I'd really like a response from Chingis - I think there is value in what was discussed here and that the community can get a real improvement.

[United Democratic Christian States]

I doubt you'll get a response from Admin on this. You might from Chingis when he's next around (he's busy at the moment, and has been for a little while), who is the Events Development Manager, i.e. responsible for things like the Global Trade Fair.

I believe the intent is to generally move towards News post write-ups being written by staff more involved with the events (which would often by Chingis) - Chingis wrote up the Best Nation and latest N-Day events; Aav and then myself did the preceding N-Days. Admin tends only to be involved in events in a "stop the servers having a meltdown" fashion and their understanding is therefore limited to main points of the leaderboards; some mods participate quite heavily in them and are therefore better able to provide a more in-depth write up. That wasn't possible with this year's GTF as Chingis wasn't around, and I don't think we had another mod particularly involved in it.

That's not a guarantee that future News posts for events won't be written by Admin, or that News posts will cite everyone who does well - but there's more chance of it.

Thank you for the insight Sedg. Personally I think it makes since to prioritize the game staying up rather than getting involved in the event

I do look forward to y’all having the manpower to get better post tho. Which I hope is sooner rather than later

If u don’t mind for the next trade fair (if we are having a 3rd) could u drop a post here saying if y’all plan on having a participating mod write up the post or not? I could also just TG you if you’d prefer that as well. Just so we can know what to expect for the next news post

[Sedgistan]

Chingis indicated he's hoping to have time to post here in the next few days, so I'll leave it to him to reply - it's his area of responsiblity, and I don't want to step on his toes.

[Chingis]

He has arrived! Firstly, let me fully disclose the fact that I am one of the co-founders of Lily, back in June of 2017 (though I have stepped away from anything except being the Discord server admin since becoming a mod). I promise that this did not affect my views on this thread.

This is a very interesting topic, and one that I have spent some deal of time over the last few days thinking about. The simple answer is that I think that this is a fair comment, and that the moderation should do a better job of recognizing the achievements of small regions in these events. I will throw Max under the bus here slightly and say that it is much harder for him to do this, since he doesn't get involved much in the site itself. Possibly this a sign that it should be the mods that write the news reports for events going forward. I will do my best to be the one to do this, or to pick someone to do it in my stead going forward, and to be more mindful of the efforts of smaller regions.

This is far from a strict guarantee of anything, but do know that your concerns have been heard and are something I will be keeping in mind.

I hope that alleviates some of your worries.

[Republic of Mesque]

He has arrived! Firstly, let me fully disclose the fact that I am one of the co-founders of Lily, back in June of 2017 (though I have stepped away from anything except being the Discord server admin since becoming a mod). I promise that this did not affect my views on this thread.

This is a very interesting topic, and one that I have spent some deal of time over the last few days thinking about. The simple answer is that I think that this is a fair comment, and that the moderation should do a better job of recognizing the achievements of small regions in these events. I will throw Max under the bus here slightly and say that it is much harder for him to do this, since he doesn't get involved much in the site itself. Possibly this a sign that it should be the mods that write the news reports for events going forward. I will do my best to be the one to do this, or to pick someone to do it in my stead going forward, and to be more mindful of the efforts of smaller regions.

This is far from a strict guarantee of anything, but do know that your concerns have been heard and are something I will be keeping in mind.

I hope that alleviates some of your worries.

It does, so long as our statement has truly being considered to spark real change in the future.
Even though it is now improbable that my region will have a chance of being affected by this, maybe other small regions or remarkable nations that eventually succeed will look back at this thread and know that their efforts will be properly celebrated.

[United Democratic Christian States]

He has arrived! Firstly, let me fully disclose the fact that I am one of the co-founders of Lily, back in June of 2017 (though I have stepped away from anything except being the Discord server admin since becoming a mod). I promise that this did not affect my views on this thread.

This is a very interesting topic, and one that I have spent some deal of time over the last few days thinking about. The simple answer is that I think that this is a fair comment, and that the moderation should do a better job of recognizing the achievements of small regions in these events. I will throw Max under the bus here slightly and say that it is much harder for him to do this, since he doesn't get involved much in the site itself. Possibly this a sign that it should be the mods that write the news reports for events going forward. I will do my best to be the one to do this, or to pick someone to do it in my stead going forward, and to be more mindful of the efforts of smaller regions.

This is far from a strict guarantee of anything, but do know that your concerns have been heard and are something I will be keeping in mind.

I hope that alleviates some of your worries.

Awesome! I look forward to seeing the upcoming event posts then