Mass Effect: Embers [Complete]

[Versail]

So out of curiosity do driveyards fall under my mals or is that only shipyard shipyards?

[G-Tech Corporation]

So out of curiosity do driveyards fall under my mals or is that only shipyard shipyards?

Alas, a Driveyard is a shipyard that can be combined with other shipyards, but remains a shipyard fundamentally.

[Pragia]

G, I'm sorry but I am not interested in playing with a politically active Geth in this state. Its already awkward enough trying to play against the OP, but between how hilariously overtuned your faction is and how out of character it has felt to try and engage with your faction, I don't really see a point to playing anything out there.

[Ormata]

I agree with Pragia. It also doesn't help that this massive plot point / flash point is blindsiding everyone involved, nullifying the cowrites we've been working. This is the sort of thing you work up to, plan, and execute gradually...not the sort of thing you just throw out there.

It also is not ok that the Quarians effectively have 0 options to choose. The Geth faction would be powerful already by virtue of it being controlled by OP, but the mechanics behind em are broken when used so aggressively, so...against the character of the Geth.

The sudden arrival of Geth seems to make any other plot point, or concept really, seem moot.

[G-Tech Corporation]

G, I'm sorry but I am not interested in playing with a politically active Geth in this state. Its already awkward enough trying to play against the OP, but between how hilariously overtuned your faction is and how out of character it has felt to try and engage with your faction, I don't really see a point to playing anything out there.

I'm not sure I follow you - what is occurring between the Geth and the Salarians?

I agree with Pragia. It also doesn't help that this massive plot point / flash point is blindsiding everyone involved, nullifying the cowrites we've been working. This is the sort of thing you work up to, plan, and execute gradually...not the sort of thing you just throw out there.

It also is not ok that the Quarians effectively have 0 options to choose. The Geth faction would be powerful already by virtue of it being controlled by OP, but the mechanics behind em are broken when used so aggressively, so...against the character of the Geth.

The sudden arrival of Geth seems to make any other plot point, or concept really, seem moot.

Hmm, well, I'm not sure exactly how there could have been more buildup to a Geth fleet stopping over Omega, aside from the slow opening of Relays in that direction. It wouldn't exactly have made sense in-character for the Geth to send emissaries to signpost that discussion, given the aforementioned continued state of war the Quarians historically pursued. The Geth-Quarian conflict is quite fundamental to any Geth narratives, and not engaging with it indefinitely wouldn't really make sense.

[Ormata]

Hmm, well, I'm not sure exactly how there could have been more buildup to a Geth fleet stopping over Omega, aside from the slow opening of Relays in that direction. It wouldn't exactly have made sense in-character for the Geth to send emissaries to signpost that discussion, given the aforementioned continued state of war the Quarians historically pursued. The Geth-Quarian conflict is quite fundamental to any Geth narratives, and not engaging with it indefinitely wouldn't really make sense.

Internal Geth discussions on courses of action. A shift towards interventionism from the preious isolationism. Potential rogue programs disagreeing. An internal narrative can be done.

What I'm more annoyed at is the fact that this has come from left field with no respect to players to possibly, say...set things up? Talk about what each side might want, OOCly and narrative wise? To figure out what the heck they're doing? I don't know how to rectify between the cowrites which have been in progress and this big, sudden fucking thing out from the aether. It's disrespectful and railroading, frankly.

[Pragia]

G, I'm sorry but I am not interested in playing with a politically active Geth in this state. Its already awkward enough trying to play against the OP, but between how hilariously overtuned your faction is and how out of character it has felt to try and engage with your faction, I don't really see a point to playing anything out there.

I'm not sure I follow you - what is occurring between the Geth and the Salarians?

Im talking broadly? The only rational option to the geth smashing up the quarians after threatening conflict with the citadel is to try and contain/combat them. Issue is there is 0 option or approach because coalitions are at multiple fundamental disadvantages in this system, and you're already stronger than the rest of the galaxy combined multiple times over

[G-Tech Corporation]

Internal Geth discussions on courses of action. A shift towards interventionism from the preious isolationism. Potential rogue programs disagreeing. An internal narrative can be done.

I'm not sure I'm following your contention - in the first IC post, the Geth are noted as emerging from behind the Veil, a more active position than historically the case. Here. We've seen the Geth open business relationships with Illium, Shanxi, talk to the Council directly for the first time since the Morning War, develop bilateral accords with human colonies in the Terminus, deploy combat units to pacify rogue elements on organic worlds... very literally the Geth have been stepping through simple coexistence, to actively intervening in Terminus affairs, to setting up a whole treaty organization to enhance the stability of their organic neighbors.

Sure, most of that development was portrayed by Geth interacting with organic races. I think that's the most easily comprehensible venue for such developments, given writing internal Geth communications would be tedious and dodgy to portray without anthropomorphizing non-human dialogues. But this is hardly a seismic shift in how the Geth have been developing throughout the IC.

Various escalating interventions have all gone quite well for the Consensus thus far. A logical next step is to apply those principles to one of the larger issues facing the Geth, the echoes of the Morning War.

What I'm more annoyed at is the fact that this has come from left field with no respect to players to possibly, say...set things up? Talk about what each side might want, OOCly and narrative wise? To figure out what the heck they're doing? I don't know how to rectify between the cowrites which have been in progress and this big, sudden fucking thing out from the aether. It's disrespectful and railroading, frankly.

I'm not bothered at all to have a chat with Hungary regarding how they would like things to unfold at this point, certainly. I get you're offended that your cowrites may have been disrupted due to changing conditions, but those aren't matters of which I was previously informed - so it doesn't exactly make sense to blame me for disrupting a subject of which I was not aware.

Im talking broadly? The only rational option to the geth smashing up the quarians after threatening conflict with the citadel is to try and contain/combat them. Issue is there is 0 option or approach because coalitions are at multiple fundamental disadvantages in this system, and you're already stronger than the rest of the galaxy combined multiple times over

You may think that is the only rational option, but I can't agree - that's a very simplistic interpretation of galactic geopolitics as a zero-sum equation, which I think we can all agree is unrealistic. I certainly don't see the only outcome of the actions taken being 'geth smashing up the quarians'. Even if it was, ICly there are plenty of other actions any member of the Citadel or Council can take aside from immediately deciding the Geth are suddenly the biggest fish to fry. I get we all benefit from perfect OOC knowledge, but if that's all you are basing your IC actions on, you're going to be disappointed with narratives on this website categorically.

ICly, most factions have only a marginal interest in the fate of the Quarians - and far less than perfect information about what is happening in Terminus space, let alone the Geth systems. Wild reports from Omega of giant Geth death-dreadnoughts are in-universe just as likely to be pro-Quarian propaganda as reflective of reality. If anything, the fact that the organic races of the Terminus have in places flourished alongside Geth expansionism gives many factions very little reason to be concerned about the Geth, rather than the inverse.

[Pragia]

Im talking broadly? The only rational option to the geth smashing up the quarians after threatening conflict with the citadel is to try and contain/combat them. Issue is there is 0 option or approach because coalitions are at multiple fundamental disadvantages in this system, and you're already stronger than the rest of the galaxy combined multiple times over

You may think that is the only rational option, but I can't agree - that's a very simplistic interpretation of galactic geopolitics as a zero-sum equation, which I think we can all agree is unrealistic. I certainly don't see the only outcome of the actions taken being 'geth smashing up the quarians'. Even if it was, ICly there are plenty of other actions any member of the Citadel or Council can take aside from immediately deciding the Geth are suddenly the biggest fish to fry. I get we all benefit from perfect OOC knowledge, but if that's all you are basing your IC actions on, you're going to be disappointed with narratives on this website categorically.

ICly, most factions have only a marginal interest in the fate of the Quarians - and far less than perfect information about what is happening in Terminus space, let alone the Geth systems. Wild reports from Omega of giant Geth death-dreadnoughts are in-universe just as likely to be pro-Quarian propaganda as reflective of reality. If anything, the fact that the organic races of the Terminus have in places flourished alongside Geth expansionism gives many factions very little reason to be concerned about the Geth, rather than the inverse.

I have already told most people here off for a zero sum thinking. I also think that it has been difficult to know what should be known IC and not: I straight up asked you when I joined whether I should take the geth's overwhelming power in terms of mechanics into account, and I was told not to, so I didn't. Then you go against the IC understanding/negotiation we had and colonize planets and open relays on the border, and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to even know that's happening, but then you say I should have and say it was too bad I didn't intervene earlier (not that I could because of aforementioned overwhelming power).

As it stands ICly the Geth have been nebulous, duplicitous, and straight up threatening, and when asked for any sort of context for the sudden and radical shift in perspective ICly, I was shrugged off, even after insisting on it a second time. ICly, the Quarians hold the gate to the terminus and have generally been rational actors, seeing that threatened openly by the geth would be tremendously disruptive at effectively every level. There is an STG division stationed for information gathering on Omega, the view is not so distant, and there would be pretty dire data points coming together on continued expansion and threats.

You are presenting an IC my way or the high way. That I have no problem with, that's politics. The issue is that you are both the OP and completely overpowered in terms of mechanics, which makes any IC struggle a waste of time, because again the mechanics fundamentally bias solo snowballing to the detriment of coalitions or IC solutions to mechanical problems

[Ormata]

I would contend that previous Geth actions have by and large also been less than stellar, though that is now besides the point. I do not believe previous actions has served to indicate a build up or decision to move 2 hyperdreads and 14 dreads to Quarian space.

I believe you misunderstand me. A dialogue on what is desired occurs before the beginning of such activities, not amid them. You have started an event and railroaded the Quarians into one option. You may be ok with having a talk now but that is a worthless sentiment and wholly besides the point. They have one option now.

As for information out of Omega being possibly dismissed as false or propaganda, you forget the STG.

To be honest, with such an actor nation involved with mechanics favoring them so heavily, I see very little reason to engage.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Then you go against the IC understanding/negotiation we had and colonize planets and open relays on the border, and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to even know that's happening, but then you say I should have and say it was too bad I didn't intervene earlier (not that I could because of aforementioned overwhelming power).

I think you need to read that interaction again, if you think that is what happened - Geth objections were raised given the status of the Siari. Once that status was resolved, the Geth specifically stated those objections would be resolved. The Siari situation was resolved, and then those objections were withdrawn.

That all aside, the Geth only ever indicated that their standpoint was unilateral; they placed conditions on Citadel factions opening Relays, and the Citadel indicated it saw no issue with complying with those conditions. We discussed further negotiations, but ever since that date OOCly I've only been approached about renewed negotiations literally yesterday. If you want to say the Geth have been duplicitous, that's just not reflective of reality. Nebulous, sure, and there was certainly an implicit threat concerning the Shadow Sea - but that was lightyears away from previous Geth approaches to diplomacy and the galaxy's treatment of the Geth.

I listed for Ormata the methodical shift toward participation in the galaxy the Geth have been undergoing. You can read that as well as he can, certainly.

You are presenting an IC my way or the high way. That I have no problem with, that's politics. The issue is that you are both the OP and completely overpowered in terms of mechanics, which makes any IC struggle a waste of time, because again the mechanics fundamentally bias solo snowballing to the detriment of coalitions or IC solutions to mechanical problems

Now this, this is the first I've heard of this - I would normally say that there are far more mechanics that reward cooperation and alliance than solo endeavors. Trade routes, tech trading, galactic banks, military cooperation, etc. Realistically, I would struggle to think of any aspect of the mechanics that rewards not cooperating with other factions. Do you think you can explain your standpoint?

I would contend that previous Geth actions have by and large also been less than stellar, though that is now besides the point. I do not believe previous actions has served to indicate a build up or decision to move 2 hyperdreads and 14 dreads to Quarian space.

I believe you misunderstand me. A dialogue on what is desired occurs before the beginning of such activities, not amid them. You have started an event and railroaded the Quarians into one option. You may be ok with having a talk now but that is a worthless sentiment and wholly besides the point. They have one option now.

As for information out of Omega being possibly dismissed as false or propaganda, you forget the STG.

To be honest, with such an actor nation involved with mechanics favoring them so heavily, I see very little reason to engage.

I think this is the first time you've expressed any problem with Geth actions? Unless my memory is failing. Quarians have been discussed extensively in the quotes I include with Geth IC posts, as well as Geth attitudes toward them, thoughts on them. Combine that with the aforementioned clear buildup toward the Geth as engaging with galactic society, and I hardly think this is railroading - honestly, even with zero buildup, which is not the case, some Geth-Quarian interaction is to be expected in a Mass Effect RP.

I'd certainly agree that pushing ideas to other folks before starting an interaction is best practice, but this is hardly doing otherwise - this is simply presenting a starting premise (a Geth fleet with auxiliaries arriving) and being happy to work from there. ICly, it would have been odd if there was any firm knowledge on the Quarian part that Geth military units were inbound. And they already discussed ICly concerns about Geth access to Omega.

As an aside, I find it amusing the completely mechanical deployment of Salarian elite infantry to Omega with a few weeks to build a network is being treated as a reason for the STG to be fully aware of what is occurring on Omega, or for any degree of extensive IC knowledge. Espionage networks have been largely atrophied for two decades. That type of information-gathering infrastructure doesn't spring up overnight, and even if it did, that implies a level of military espionage sufficient to repudiate Quarian claims about sensitive military operations. I certainly don't think Hungary would be comfortable with the assumption that a few Salarians walking around on Omega have completely penetrated the Quarian state in a fortnight.

[Ormata]

I did not voice earlier concerns because I anticipated a degree of restraint in future actions, both due to Geth mechanics snowballing and due to your position as OP. I anticipated a degree of acting in good faith as before you were largely dealing with NPCs. I apologize that I anticipated incorrectly and did not voice concerns.

I still do not believe you are understanding the issues held against this action. I do not know how to better voice these issues held.

Currently I do not anticipate posting for the next few updates. There does not seem to be, at this point, any reason to post or set forth information due to the relative scale at which the concerning factors are operating. Any actions made do not appear to have any impact on the results at this time.

[Pragia]

Then you go against the IC understanding/negotiation we had and colonize planets and open relays on the border, and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to even know that's happening, but then you say I should have and say it was too bad I didn't intervene earlier (not that I could because of aforementioned overwhelming power).

I think you need to read that interaction again, if you think that is what happened - Geth objections were raised given the status of the Siari. Once that status was resolved, the Geth specifically stated those objections would be resolved. The Siari situation was resolved, and then those objections were withdrawn.

That all aside, the Geth only ever indicated that their standpoint was unilateral; they placed conditions on Citadel factions opening Relays, and the Citadel indicated it saw no issue with complying with those conditions. We discussed further negotiations, but ever since that date OOCly I've only been approached about renewed negotiations literally yesterday. If you want to say the Geth have been duplicitous, that's just not reflective of reality. Nebulous, sure, and there was certainly an implicit threat concerning the Shadow Sea - but that was lightyears away from previous Geth approaches to diplomacy and the galaxy's treatment of the Geth.

I listed for Ormata the methodical shift toward participation in the galaxy the Geth have been undergoing. You can read that as well as he can, certainly.

You are presenting an IC my way or the high way. That I have no problem with, that's politics. The issue is that you are both the OP and completely overpowered in terms of mechanics, which makes any IC struggle a waste of time, because again the mechanics fundamentally bias solo snowballing to the detriment of coalitions or IC solutions to mechanical problems

Now this, this is the first I've heard of this - I would normally say that there are far more mechanics that reward cooperation and alliance than solo endeavors. Trade routes, tech trading, galactic banks, military cooperation, etc. Realistically, I would struggle to think of any aspect of the mechanics that rewards not cooperating with other factions. Do you think you can explain your standpoint?

As an aside, I find it amusing the completely mechanical deployment of Salarian elite infantry to Omega with a few weeks to build a network is being treated as a reason for the STG to be fully aware of what is occurring on Omega, or for any degree of extensive IC knowledge. Espionage networks have been largely atrophied for two decades. That type of information-gathering infrastructure doesn't spring up overnight, and even if it did, that implies a level of military espionage sufficient to repudiate Quarian claims about sensitive military operations. I certainly don't think Hungary would be comfortable with the assumption that a few Salarians walking around on Omega have completely penetrated the Quarian state in a fortnight.

Geth objections were raised with the implicit threat of action if we did not comply. Agreement only came because it would be suicidal to not do so, and it was reasonably achievable. The siari still aren't actually dealt with. The fact that it was unilateral is only more indication of hostility and unwillingness to actually negotiate, a point that was also brushed off ICly. Regardless, demanding a DMZ and then expanding into it is tremendously bad faith, nor was there any affirmative indication or communication at all that the condition was actually met as dictated by the one issuing the demand (which, as said, it still hasn't).

Trade routes are the least constructed building among major infrastructure and are cumbersome to manage, let alone use, and provide minimal functional benefit (as credits are readily available in excess). Banks are minor at best and far from any degree of coordination for similar reasons. Tech trading is a net cost to anyone actually wanting to do it, if anything its a demonstrable penalty to cooperation that significant costs go into it. There are precisely zero benefits to military cooperation beyond size, and I figure the combat benefits I am aiming to get will not be applied to allied fleets. Again, all of this is irrelevant to the functional issue that even if there were perfect coordination and we didn't have redundant/wasted technology, the geth would still outproduce the entire rest of the galaxy combined. Any resources put towards cooperation are resources not being put into the snowball of numbers that is the mechanics, which means you fall behind. I was trying to put together tech liscensing, for instance, and realized that not only would I have to spend 2 turns of research to even be able to share tech, I would then also need to research any tech I wanted to share again. Instead, I could advance my own tech massively.

On the topic of STG, yes I would think that 30,000 elite operatives would be able to manage to get a fairly complete view of a situation going on in a system they are in. Its not a matter of penetration (not that it matters because they are there openly), but confirmed reports being provided by just looking around or looking out a window. It doesn't take being the most developed intelligence gathering apparatus in the galaxy to confirm that a gigantic geth fleet showed up in the system they are in.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I did not voice earlier concerns because I anticipated a degree of restraint in future actions, both due to Geth mechanics snowballing and due to your position as OP. I anticipated a degree of acting in good faith as before you were largely dealing with NPCs. I apologize that I anticipated incorrectly and did not voice concerns.

I'm afraid I just have to disagree. Every single faction in this RPG, and indeed I would argue in most well designed pen-and-paper RPGs, benefits from accumulated action. That has nothing to do with me being OP or not. You are advancing the premise that you expected an IC faction to only ever interact with NPCs, in a manner you were personally comfortable with, but had not expressed, and for that situation to continue in perpetuity. As you might guess, this strikes me as a rather implausible premise to be held under any circumstances.

Currently I do not anticipate posting for the next few updates. There does not seem to be, at this point, any reason to post or set forth information due to the relative scale at which the concerning factors are operating. Any actions made do not appear to have any impact on the results at this time.

Completely your choice, of course. I can't say I feel too charitable towards you for withdrawing your participation predicated on unstated assumptions which have only now been brought to the fore, but that is your own affair. I looked forward to Geth-Collector interactions; perhaps those can still occur after your time for contemplation.

Geth objections were raised with the implicit threat of action if we did not comply. Agreement only came because it would be suicidal to not do so, and it was reasonably achievable. The siari still aren't actually dealt with. The fact that it was unilateral is only more indication of hostility and unwillingness to actually negotiate, a point that was also brushed off ICly. Regardless, demanding a DMZ and then expanding into it is tremendously bad faith, nor was there any affirmative indication or communication at all that the condition was actually met as dictated by the one issuing the demand (which, as said, it still hasn't).

As was stated several times, the Council was looking to negotiate very different latitudes than a simple DMZ. The implied threat was integral to the negotiation, as is commonplace in geopolitics even within ME, to say nothing of general narratives. If you want to say that using the language of force in negotiations as a counterpoint to other concerns would be ICly viewed as unreasonable hostility or intransigence by the Council, I just have to disagree - there are a dozen datapoints from the series, from the First Contact War all the way through the Reaper War, where the Council itself indulged in just such discussions very rationally.

Trade routes are the least constructed building among major infrastructure and are cumbersome to manage, let alone use, and provide minimal functional benefit (as credits are readily available in excess). Banks are minor at best and far from any degree of coordination for similar reasons. Tech trading is a net cost to anyone actually wanting to do it, if anything its a demonstrable penalty to cooperation that significant costs go into it. There are precisely zero benefits to military cooperation beyond size, and I figure the combat benefits I am aiming to get will not be applied to allied fleets.

Honestly, this argument doesn't to any degree stand up to scrutiny - you are not arguing that there are not benefits to cooperation, you are arguing that those benefits are not of a scale you personally prefer. Tech trading saves 25% of the cost of technologies, if coordinated, and sure, it has a startup cost. That's entirely appropriate given the value derived, and, I will add, 100% consistent across every mechanic in this RP. Deriving benefit relies upon invested opportunity cost. I can't think of any reason that should be otherwise? Trade routes, banks, etc. all raise the output a faction can derive from a given system, and are only available via cooperation.

And then we get to military benefit - where the total resources invested in a fleet is, functionally, the ur-determinant of the power of that fleet. Double the amount of resources in a fleet and you, roughly, double her power. You posit military cooperation as 'zero benefit', then note that it actually benefits from the most important facet of military strength.

Again, all of this is irrelevant to the functional issue that even if there were perfect coordination and we didn't have redundant/wasted technology, the geth would still outproduce the entire rest of the galaxy combined. Any resources put towards cooperation are resources not being put into the snowball of numbers that is the mechanics, which means you fall behind. I was trying to put together tech liscensing, for instance, and realized that not only would I have to spend 2 turns of research to even be able to share tech, I would then also need to research any tech I wanted to share again. Instead, I could advance my own tech massively.

I'll happily argue that the baseline Academic Peerage Protocols are the most powerful technology in the RP, far and away - with even a single ally they can mean you receive a 25% discount on 50% of your technology research, if you and that ally coordinate your tech paths, and that benefit only escalates if more factions choose to become involved. A 25% discount on the most 'sinkable' metric in the RP is amazingly powerful, and only realized via cooperation.

As far as the Geth being powerful, well, that's going to happen with any faction which has been able to expand to nearly a dozen clusters. Geopolitical realities and choices from other factions meant the Consensus hasn't run into any limitations on 'most optimal' investments until a few months ago, whereas other factions have not expanded as swiftly, and thus seen less return on their investment month-over-month. The Geth get more optimal worlds than the average faction, to compensate for their theoretical lack of ability to expand due to political isolation, but really this entire RP that hasn't been borne out.

I'll be the first to admit I didn't expect the Quarians to set up shop in Omega, or never come east from the Nebula, and for the Council to only just now start sending fleets into the Terminus. It has been, from a Geth perspective, a perfect storm of useful decisions by other factions. But fundamental balancing constraints aren't really something I can engineer to account for unexpected faction decisions by RPers, unfortunately.

On the topic of STG, yes I would think that 30,000 elite operatives would be able to manage to get a fairly complete view of a situation going on in a system they are in. Its not a matter of penetration (not that it matters because they are there openly), but confirmed reports being provided by just looking around or looking out a window. It doesn't take being the most developed intelligence gathering apparatus in the galaxy to confirm that a gigantic geth fleet showed up in the system they are in.

Look, you want to argue that the Union has nearly a million elite espionage operatives of STG grade, I'm already skeptical. You want to argue that they establish cursory espionage apparatuses a month after deployment on effectively every major world in the galaxy with barely an ounce of funding, still dubious. But if you want to posit that they have links to the Quarian military sufficient to prove or disprove military intelligence on high-level topics in that timeframe, we're just not talking about plausible outcomes. Should the STG know "some Geth were here"? Sure. Military readouts on vessels? Realistically, even the number of vessels? Only with direct Quarian cooperation, and again, that leaves fog of war for if the Quarians are being entirely candid.

[The National Dominion of Hungary]

The Geth-Quarian conflict is quite fundamental to any Geth narratives, that is true, but that is also the case for Quarian narratives.

I have no problems with an overwhelming Geth force coming and forcing a peace treaty in and of itself, that is, as Pragia said, the nature of geopolitics, something that gunboat diplomacy is very much a part of.

However, a narrative of such importance should be handled with a degree of... let's say care, can't find a better word now. A narrative that builds up and reaches a crescendo when the Geth decide that, given their experiences after interacting with organics and leaving the Veil, they must force the Quarians to the table with a display of overwhelming force. Perhaps after the Quarians find out about the Geth contacts with the Collectors and harden the border to prevent Geth entries, tensions rise, Quarian and Geth patrols start skirmishing in the in the Pylos nebula, we see some Geth internal debates and habitual Quarian panic as tensions rise. It could have been a really cool story had it been discussed.

[Pragia]

Geth objections were raised with the implicit threat of action if we did not comply. Agreement only came because it would be suicidal to not do so, and it was reasonably achievable. The siari still aren't actually dealt with. The fact that it was unilateral is only more indication of hostility and unwillingness to actually negotiate, a point that was also brushed off ICly. Regardless, demanding a DMZ and then expanding into it is tremendously bad faith, nor was there any affirmative indication or communication at all that the condition was actually met as dictated by the one issuing the demand (which, as said, it still hasn't).

As was stated several times, the Council was looking to negotiate very different latitudes than a simple DMZ. The implied threat was integral to the negotiation, as is commonplace in geopolitics even within ME, to say nothing of general narratives. If you want to say that using the language of force in negotiations as a counterpoint to other concerns would be ICly viewed as unreasonable hostility or intransigence by the Council, I just have to disagree - there are a dozen datapoints from the series, from the First Contact War all the way through the Reaper War, where the Council itself indulged in just such discussions very rationally.

Trade routes are the least constructed building among major infrastructure and are cumbersome to manage, let alone use, and provide minimal functional benefit (as credits are readily available in excess). Banks are minor at best and far from any degree of coordination for similar reasons. Tech trading is a net cost to anyone actually wanting to do it, if anything its a demonstrable penalty to cooperation that significant costs go into it. There are precisely zero benefits to military cooperation beyond size, and I figure the combat benefits I am aiming to get will not be applied to allied fleets.

Honestly, this argument doesn't to any degree stand up to scrutiny - you are not arguing that there are not benefits to cooperation, you are arguing that those benefits are not of a scale you personally prefer. Tech trading saves 25% of the cost of technologies, if coordinated, and sure, it has a startup cost. That's entirely appropriate given the value derived, and, I will add, 100% consistent across every mechanic in this RP. Deriving benefit relies upon invested opportunity cost. I can't think of any reason that should be otherwise? Trade routes, banks, etc. all raise the output a faction can derive from a given system, and are only available via cooperation.

And then we get to military benefit - where the total resources invested in a fleet is, functionally, the ur-determinant of the power of that fleet. Double the amount of resources in a fleet and you, roughly, double her power. You posit military cooperation as 'zero benefit', then note that it actually benefits from the most important facet of military strength.

Again, all of this is irrelevant to the functional issue that even if there were perfect coordination and we didn't have redundant/wasted technology, the geth would still outproduce the entire rest of the galaxy combined. Any resources put towards cooperation are resources not being put into the snowball of numbers that is the mechanics, which means you fall behind. I was trying to put together tech liscensing, for instance, and realized that not only would I have to spend 2 turns of research to even be able to share tech, I would then also need to research any tech I wanted to share again. Instead, I could advance my own tech massively.

I'll happily argue that the baseline Academic Peerage Protocols are the most powerful technology in the RP, far and away - with even a single ally they can mean you receive a 25% discount on 50% of your technology research, if you and that ally coordinate your tech paths, and that benefit only escalates if more factions choose to become involved. A 25% discount on the most 'sinkable' metric in the RP is amazingly powerful, and only realized via cooperation.

As far as the Geth being powerful, well, that's going to happen with any faction which has been able to expand to nearly a dozen clusters. Geopolitical realities and choices from other factions meant the Consensus hasn't run into any limitations on 'most optimal' investments until a few months ago, whereas other factions have not expanded as swiftly, and thus seen less return on their investment month-over-month. The Geth get more optimal worlds than the average faction, to compensate for their theoretical lack of ability to expand due to political isolation, but really this entire RP that hasn't been borne out.

I'll be the first to admit I didn't expect the Quarians to set up shop in Omega, or never come east from the Nebula, and for the Council to only just now start sending fleets into the Terminus. It has been, from a Geth perspective, a perfect storm of useful decisions by other factions. But fundamental balancing constraints aren't really something I can engineer to account for unexpected faction decisions by RPers, unfortunately.

On the topic of STG, yes I would think that 30,000 elite operatives would be able to manage to get a fairly complete view of a situation going on in a system they are in. Its not a matter of penetration (not that it matters because they are there openly), but confirmed reports being provided by just looking around or looking out a window. It doesn't take being the most developed intelligence gathering apparatus in the galaxy to confirm that a gigantic geth fleet showed up in the system they are in.

Look, you want to argue that the Union has nearly a million elite espionage operatives of STG grade, I'm already skeptical. You want to argue that they establish cursory espionage apparatuses a month after deployment on effectively every major world in the galaxy with barely an ounce of funding, still dubious. But if you want to posit that they have links to the Quarian military sufficient to prove or disprove military intelligence on high-level topics in that timeframe, we're just not talking about plausible outcomes. Should the STG know "some Geth were here"? Sure. Military readouts on vessels? Realistically, even the number of vessels? Only with direct Quarian cooperation, and again, that leaves fog of war for if the Quarians are being entirely candid.

Threats of war have not been commonplace in the ME setting. The First Contact War did not have pretense or diplomacy, it was a kneejerk contatinment action which ended basically as soon as diplomatic channels opened. It was not even ended through threat of force, as the use of force was deemed as being in the wrong by the citadel. Basically every belligerent cause has been regarded as unreasonable by the council, and their stuck up complacency and desire to maintain a largely peaceful galactic order is a core part of the setting. Geopolitics is effectively nonexistent in the setting, as the Citadel is effectively a centralization of authority to make any geopolitical maneuvering irrelevant.

If academic peerage were as powerful as you claim, why has nobody used it outside of the geth using it to back up factions because they had an excess of it? What I am saying is that two smaller powers working together will not have as much technology as one larger power, because each half has to research the technology, then spend 75% of it again to teach it, while the larger faction just researches it and has no other costs. There is no discount there in relative outputs, at all. This only gets worse in a wider coalition. I have to spend 325% of the cost of a technology to provide it to the rest of the council, or 200% and credits with liscensing, while the singular power researches it normally and moves on. Just because it is more efficient than everyone researching it does not make it anywhere near as efficient as just advancing your own technology.

Even if the Geth were isolated to behind the veil, they would still out produce the entire citadel. Even before the monument which gave you more garden/near garden worlds than the entire rest of the galaxy combined, the ability to have so many terran worlds when most explored systems are lucky to have one terran world was already massively overtuned. Orbitals provide %increases of production of everything, as well as incredibly potent defenses. As of present there is one biotic technology and I have not been convinced of the power of the unit upgrade in the limited data we have on it (the combat system being entirely opaque doesn't help). The caretaker benefit might matter if there was any restriction to expansion to make it relevant (Though it also conveniently excludes the most critical infrastructure). Perhaps the combat penalty might have mattered, but also its able to be worked around (as with any doctrinal limitation).

On the topic of expansion, there are no canon factions in that region of space to even be there, because it is incredibly remote. I don't see why you would expect them to be limited beyond a rivalry with the Quarians. Every other major faction has limited expansion corridors, and nobody was in range to ever contest geth expansion even if they wanted to. I wasn't there for the early game but I don't even see why any organic race would assume the geth survived the crucible to begin with. In my opinion the caretaker penalty should include a bar on claiming/pacifying/colonizing beyond the veil, as that is the fundamental break with the setting that is causing this mess.

If I don't have millions of elite grade soldiers, then what is the STG faction bonus and why am I pouring thousands of credits a month into elite divisions? I don't see how the hundred+credits i put in per unit I am stationing on remote postings instead of in invasion or defense forces is not an investment into my intelligence. There is very little fog of war when you show up in a core system of a faction. I don't see why there would be any fog when they can look out from omega and notice massed fleets of geth ships. Even if I accept that they could not notice that, it is likely setting off both military and civilian alarms seeing as this is basically a quarian doomsday scenario of their vengeful slaves showing up to finish their genocide. If, following this, they request and recieve such information, they don't really have much reason to question it.

[Cybernetic Socialist Republics]

Turn(s) tommorrow, (or today, depending on how you count it) + it seems like some of you should have focused on preparing for the Geth instead of dogpiling me. You chose to M.A.D. and now you get to eat the consequences. L, M, A, O.

[Nuxipal]

Turn(s) tommorrow, (or today, depending on how you count it) + it seems like some of you should have focused on preparing for the Geth instead of dogpiling me. You chose to M.A.D. and now you get to eat the consequences. L, M, A, O.

You gonna actually write something and roleplay or continue to be a clown?

[Pragia]

Turn(s) tommorrow, (or today, depending on how you count it) + it seems like some of you should have focused on preparing for the Geth instead of dogpiling me. You chose to M.A.D. and now you get to eat the consequences. L, M, A, O.

All of the factions with the caliber of fleets and tech to fight the geth have not even gotten involved. If you want to martyr complex yourself go ahead but don't pretend you were holding up anything that matters with your bitterness. The hyperdread capable sealed away npc faction in Minos is actually a threat and a sink for the citadel, and the Geth would never need to face any sort of challenge to their expansion, or any sort of OOC, mechanical, or IC restraint

[G-Tech Corporation]

The Geth-Quarian conflict is quite fundamental to any Geth narratives, that is true, but that is also the case for Quarian narratives.

I have no problems with an overwhelming Geth force coming and forcing a peace treaty in and of itself, that is, as Pragia said, the nature of geopolitics, something that gunboat diplomacy is very much a part of.

However, a narrative of such importance should be handled with a degree of... let's say care, can't find a better word now. A narrative that builds up and reaches a crescendo when the Geth decide that, given their experiences after interacting with organics and leaving the Veil, they must force the Quarians to the table with a display of overwhelming force. Perhaps after the Quarians find out about the Geth contacts with the Collectors and harden the border to prevent Geth entries, tensions rise, Quarian and Geth patrols start skirmishing in the in the Pylos nebula, we see some Geth internal debates and habitual Quarian panic as tensions rise. It could have been a really cool story had it been discussed.

If you want to do something else, I'm perfectly happy with your thoughts; were you planning to expand into Pylos? I'll admit, my impression was that you were more or less only engaging with other narratives in the Commonwealth and elsewhere, and had no interest in eastern Terminus affairs beyond a footnote.

[Creataris]

Could someone please check my numbers to make sure they're correct?

History is still being written but is almost caught up, and I'll have to write an RP sample since I don't have anything recent to work with.



Faction: Sanctuary Initiative

Leader: Director Emilia Litinov

Diplomatic Relations Summary: Largely non-existent outside regular trade with Joab in the neighbouring Enoch system, though even this regular contact is fraught with its own complications due to Sanctuary's origins and the unstable political situation on Joab itself. It must be noted that at this point relations with Joab are distinctly hostile, and that Sanctuary has determined to stabilize Joab at any cost, particularly given the great value in credits, materials and public good-will invested in helping Joab recover from the collapse.

Outside this rocky relationship, Sanctuary has thus-far had extremely limited contact with other groups or powers in the galaxy, as the Rosetta Relay has only just completed its repair and reactivation sequence. The only contact that has occurred has been between a handful of frigates and independent traders to ascertain the current state of the galaxy. At present, Sanctuary is aiming to keep a low-profile lest any powers, particularly the Human Systems Alliance, take umbrage with its origins.

Military Summary: The defence forces of Sanctuary have a "complicated" relationship with one another thanks to their origins and ongoing rivalry. Though both forces work well together in exercises, even going so far as to be complimentary, despite bitter running battles in the halls of power over funding and jurisdiction. This has manifested in two entirely separate forces, with both Peacekeepers and Navy holding sizeable ground forces and ship compliments of their own. Though Parliament, subsequent Defence Secretaries, Treasury Secretaries and Directors are beginning to press for integration.

The Sanctuary Peacekeepers are an outgrowth of the homegrown ground security elements of Sanctuary that evolved from police to army. That said, the Peacekeepers ground elements have both extensive military and police training at their disposal, enabling them to serve as both a heavily armed peacekeeping force and a frontline ground force on par with any other in the galaxy. Peacekeeper space elements consist of light vessels suitable for security, patrol, escort and raiding duties, leaving heavier vessels to the Navy at the latter's extremely vocal insistence.

The Sanctuary Navy has its origins in the fleets and ground forces of the long dead Cerberus. Yet when Cerberus demanded its forces guarding the Sanctuary initiative submit for indoctrination, they refused. Sadly even with their defiance, their losses to the indoctrinated minions of The Illusive Man and a new generation filtering through they still bear the scars of their origins. From the larger, more comfortable vessels bearing the civilian design legacy common to all former Cerberus ships to the patterning of their marine armour and the cut of their uniforms, the Navy still has a great deal of work to do to divorce itself from its origins. To this end, the Navy does wish to conduct a thorough rebranding and potentially refit its ships to a more utilitarian standard with larger crews or marine compliments in order to better utilize the saved internal volume.

History: In progress

Infrastructure and Claimed Worlds:

System Income: +185 materials, +96 Industry, +666 Credits, +12 Research Points (presuming the 20% boost applies)
2175 Aeia (Garden World) - Renamed Sanctuary
7 Mining Complexes
1 Major Mining Complex
4 Industrial Complexes
1 Major Industrial Complex
2 Planetary Fuel Depots
4 Urban Areas
1 Major Spaceport
1 Research Station
1 Military Shipyard
1 Minor Space Station
Income: +10 Material, +40 Industry +555 Credits, 10 Research Points
Time reductions: Ground Units - 40%, Ships - 55%
Production Capacity: 950

Chandra (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

Tsukuyomi (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

Hecate (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

Diana (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

2175 AR2 (Gas Giant) - Renamed Gargantua
Active Modifier: Innumerable Small Moons (+50% Materials Output)
1 Orbital Mining Station
2 Aerostadts
1 Minor Space Station
Income: +195 Material
Time reductions: Ships - 20%
Production Capacity: 100

As yet unpressed claims on neighbouring Enoch and Phi Clio systems

Military:

a) Terrestrial Forces:
Peacekeepers
6 Infantry Divisions
2 Armoured Divisions
1 Artillery Battalion
1 Combat Engineer Battalion
1 Anti-Orbital Missile Force
1 Gunship Wing

Sanctuary Navy Marines
2 Infantry Divisions (Drop Troops)

b) Space Fleets:
Sanctuary Navy Home Fleet - Deployed to Alpha Draconis
1 Battlegroup Carrier (Dropship Hangars) - 2 Fighter Squadrons, 2 Interceptor Squadrons
1 Light Cruiser (Enhanced Guardian lasers)
2 Destroyers
2 Frigates

Sanctuary Navy Relay Security Fleet - Deployed to Enoch System Relay
1 Heavy Cruiser
2 Escort Carriers - 2 Fighter Squadrons
2 Destroyers

Peacekeeper Alpha Draconis System Security Regiment - Deployed to Alpha Draconis
4 Frigates (Boarding Troops)
1 Fighter Squadron - Based on Sanctuary

Peacekeeper Transport Group - Deployed to Alpha Draconis
1 Heavy Cruiser
2 Transports
1 Escort Carrier (Enhanced Guardian Lasers) - 1 Interceptor Squadron
2 Frigates
2 Squadrons of Assault Landers

RP Example: In Progress
Questions and Suggestions:
S14

Total Initial Spending:
Total available budget= 4200

Mining Complex 15x15= 225
Major Mining Complex 50x1=50
Industrial Complex 20x12=240
Major Industrial Complex 50x1=50
Military Shipyard 500x1=500
Planetary Fuel Depot 20x2=40
Urban Area 150x4=600
Research Station 600x1=600
Major Spaceport 350x1=350
Aerostadt 200x2=400
Orbital Mining Station 100x1=100
Minor Space Station 200x2=400
Infantry Division (Drop Troops) 12x2=24
Infantry Division 10x6=60
Armoured Division 25x2=50
Artillery Battalion 10x1=10
Combat Engineer Battalion 7x1=7
Anti-Orbital Missile Force 10x1=10
Gunship Wing 5x1=5
Frigate (Boarding Troops) 11x4=44
Frigate 10x4=40
Heavy Cruiser 45x2=90
Transport 25x2=50
Escort Carrier 20x2=40
Escort Carrier (Enhanced Guardian Lasers) 23x1=23
Assault Lander 3x2=6
Fighter Squadron 7x5=35
Interceptor Squadron 6x3=18
Battlegroup Carrier (Drop Troops) 42x1=42
Light Cruiser (Enhanced Guardian Lasers) 29x1=29
Destroyer 15x4=60

Total Spend= 4200

[Segmentia]

Anyone want to do any trade? I'm looking for a influx of credits in the next month or two.

[Ormata]

Anyone want to do any trade? I'm looking for a influx of credits in the next month or two.

Regrettably I'm not quite capable of shifting credits to others at this point without limiting my own concerns, as much as I'd love to have that sort of meeting.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Could someone please check my numbers to make sure they're correct?

History is still being written but is almost caught up, and I'll have to write an RP sample since I don't have anything recent to work with.



Faction: Sanctuary Initiative

Leader: Director Emilia Litinov

Diplomatic Relations Summary: Largely non-existent outside regular trade with Joab in the neighbouring Enoch system, though even this regular contact is fraught with its own complications due to Sanctuary's origins and the unstable political situation on Joab itself. It must be noted that at this point relations with Joab are distinctly hostile, and that Sanctuary has determined to stabilize Joab at any cost, particularly given the great value in credits, materials and public good-will invested in helping Joab recover from the collapse.

Outside this rocky relationship, Sanctuary has thus-far had extremely limited contact with other groups or powers in the galaxy, as the Rosetta Relay has only just completed its repair and reactivation sequence. The only contact that has occurred has been between a handful of frigates and independent traders to ascertain the current state of the galaxy. At present, Sanctuary is aiming to keep a low-profile lest any powers, particularly the Human Systems Alliance, take umbrage with its origins.

Military Summary: The defence forces of Sanctuary have a "complicated" relationship with one another thanks to their origins and ongoing rivalry. Though both forces work well together in exercises, even going so far as to be complimentary, despite bitter running battles in the halls of power over funding and jurisdiction. This has manifested in two entirely separate forces, with both Peacekeepers and Navy holding sizeable ground forces and ship compliments of their own. Though Parliament, subsequent Defence Secretaries, Treasury Secretaries and Directors are beginning to press for integration.

The Sanctuary Peacekeepers are an outgrowth of the homegrown ground security elements of Sanctuary that evolved from police to army. That said, the Peacekeepers ground elements have both extensive military and police training at their disposal, enabling them to serve as both a heavily armed peacekeeping force and a frontline ground force on par with any other in the galaxy. Peacekeeper space elements consist of light vessels suitable for security, patrol, escort and raiding duties, leaving heavier vessels to the Navy at the latter's extremely vocal insistence.

The Sanctuary Navy has its origins in the fleets and ground forces of the long dead Cerberus. Yet when Cerberus demanded its forces guarding the Sanctuary initiative submit for indoctrination, they refused. Sadly even with their defiance, their losses to the indoctrinated minions of The Illusive Man and a new generation filtering through they still bear the scars of their origins. From the larger, more comfortable vessels bearing the civilian design legacy common to all former Cerberus ships to the patterning of their marine armour and the cut of their uniforms, the Navy still has a great deal of work to do to divorce itself from its origins. To this end, the Navy does wish to conduct a thorough rebranding and potentially refit its ships to a more utilitarian standard with larger crews or marine compliments in order to better utilize the saved internal volume.

History: In progress

Infrastructure and Claimed Worlds:

System Income: +185 materials, +96 Industry, +666 Credits, +12 Research Points (presuming the 20% boost applies)
2175 Aeia (Garden World) - Renamed Sanctuary
7 Mining Complexes
1 Major Mining Complex
4 Industrial Complexes
1 Major Industrial Complex
2 Planetary Fuel Depots
4 Urban Areas
1 Major Spaceport
1 Research Station
1 Military Shipyard
1 Minor Space Station
Income: +10 Material, +40 Industry +555 Credits, 10 Research Points
Time reductions: Ground Units - 40%, Ships - 55%
Production Capacity: 950

Chandra (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

Tsukuyomi (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

Hecate (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

Diana (Barren Moon)
2 Mining Complexes
2 Industrial Complexes
Income: -10 Material, +10 Industry
Time reductions: Ships - 30%

2175 AR2 (Gas Giant) - Renamed Gargantua
Active Modifier: Innumerable Small Moons (+50% Materials Output)
1 Orbital Mining Station
2 Aerostadts
1 Minor Space Station
Income: +195 Material
Time reductions: Ships - 20%
Production Capacity: 100

As yet unpressed claims on neighbouring Enoch and Phi Clio systems

Military:

a) Terrestrial Forces:
Peacekeepers
6 Infantry Divisions
2 Armoured Divisions
1 Artillery Battalion
1 Combat Engineer Battalion
1 Anti-Orbital Missile Force
1 Gunship Wing

Sanctuary Navy Marines
2 Infantry Divisions (Drop Troops)

b) Space Fleets:
Sanctuary Navy Home Fleet - Deployed to Alpha Draconis
1 Battlegroup Carrier (Dropship Hangars) - 2 Fighter Squadrons, 2 Interceptor Squadrons
1 Light Cruiser (Enhanced Guardian lasers)
2 Destroyers
2 Frigates

Sanctuary Navy Relay Security Fleet - Deployed to Enoch System Relay
1 Heavy Cruiser
2 Escort Carriers - 2 Fighter Squadrons
2 Destroyers

Peacekeeper Alpha Draconis System Security Regiment - Deployed to Alpha Draconis
4 Frigates (Boarding Troops)
1 Fighter Squadron - Based on Sanctuary

Peacekeeper Transport Group - Deployed to Alpha Draconis
1 Heavy Cruiser
2 Transports
1 Escort Carrier (Enhanced Guardian Lasers) - 1 Interceptor Squadron
2 Frigates
2 Squadrons of Assault Landers

RP Example: In Progress
Questions and Suggestions:
S14

Total Initial Spending:
Total available budget= 4200

Mining Complex 15x15= 225
Major Mining Complex 50x1=50
Industrial Complex 20x12=240
Major Industrial Complex 50x1=50
Military Shipyard 500x1=500
Planetary Fuel Depot 20x2=40
Urban Area 150x4=600
Research Station 600x1=600
Major Spaceport 350x1=350
Aerostadt 200x2=400
Orbital Mining Station 100x1=100
Minor Space Station 200x2=400
Infantry Division (Drop Troops) 12x2=24
Infantry Division 10x6=60
Armoured Division 25x2=50
Artillery Battalion 10x1=10
Combat Engineer Battalion 7x1=7
Anti-Orbital Missile Force 10x1=10
Gunship Wing 5x1=5
Frigate (Boarding Troops) 11x4=44
Frigate 10x4=40
Heavy Cruiser 45x2=90
Transport 25x2=50
Escort Carrier 20x2=40
Escort Carrier (Enhanced Guardian Lasers) 23x1=23
Assault Lander 3x2=6
Fighter Squadron 7x5=35
Interceptor Squadron 6x3=18
Battlegroup Carrier (Drop Troops) 42x1=42
Light Cruiser (Enhanced Guardian Lasers) 29x1=29
Destroyer 15x4=60

Total Spend= 4200

This all appears to be broadly in order- looking forward to seeing that history and whatnot soon.

[G-Tech Corporation]

My apologies for the delay folks - just had our lead city councilman step down due to a pretty gnarly scandal, so with a few weeks of experience under my belt I've been pulled in as VP. Busy busy, needless to say. I'll be trying to aim for an update Friday or thereabouts, assuming nothing else catches fire.