NATION

PASSWORD

Liberalism's Crusader Mentality

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Liberalism's Crusader Mentality

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:51 pm

Hello,

As you are aware most of the western world has imposed sanctions against Russia and begun a campaign to try and wage a proxy war against it in Ukraine. What this means is interpreted differently by different people. Some, many of them on this website reading this right now, will argue that Putin invaded Ukraine just because he felt like it one morning or some other reason that ignores every year from 2014 to February of 2022 and all the diplomatic lead up to the war in Ukraine. Others like me argue that the war was part of a long running strategy of the United States expanding NATO to encircle Russia and create an untenable security situation for that country, with the eventual goal of regime change.

Regardless the subject of this thread is not the lead up to the war in Ukraine but what I think is the "Crusader mentality" of liberalism today where Russia is identified as an enemy which not only must be defeated, but must be totally destroyed. A "Crusader Mentality" is what Neoconservatives had in the lead up to the Iraq war, and I would say is characterized by the need of the person who is afflicted by it to push their values on other countries and peoples and if they refuse those values (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc.) to destroy them in what can only be called campaign of genocidal interventionism and war mongering. This is a tendency of liberalism in particular today because it uses the ideology and language of American liberalism to support an objectively imperialist political project that means the break up of the Russian state which has existed for hundreds of years into ten or so states that are easier for the US to destroy and manipulate. To support the idea that this is the case I cite an arm of the US government itself, and American intellectuals.

https://www.csce.gov/international-impa ... ing-russia

This video is long so I will instead cite a news story in The Atlantic to prove why I think liberals have this crusader mentality;

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ya/639428/

"The U.S. had an opportunity to unwind the Russian empire before. In September 1991, as the Soviet Union was falling apart, President George H. W. Bush convened his National Security Council. In the lead-up to the meeting, the White House seemed unsure how to handle the splintering superpower. Some of Bush’s closest advisers even called for trying to keep the Soviet Union together.

Defense Secretary Dick Cheney was not one of them. “We could get an authoritarian regime [in Russia] still,” he warned during the meeting. “I am concerned that a year or so from now, if it all goes sour, how we can answer that we did not do more.” His end goal was clear: as Deputy National Security Adviser Robert Gates later wrote, Cheney “wanted to see the dismantlement not only of the Soviet Union and the Russian empire but of Russia itself, so it could never again be a threat to the rest of the world.”

Bush demurred. Rather than accelerate the Soviet disintegration, he tried to avoid antagonizing Moscow, even as President Boris Yeltsin’s administration began pushing the anti-Ukrainian animus that Putin now embodies. For years—as Russia stabilized and eventually prospered, and as Cheney masterminded some of the most disastrous American foreign-policy decisions in recent decades—many believed that Bush had selected the better strategy. Armageddon, as one historian phrased it, was averted."


Here the liberal intellectual writing this seems to align with neoconservatives on foreign policy.


...
"Chechnya, for instance, endured multiple horrific wars after declaring independence in the early ’90s. Yet when Chechen leadership turned to the West for aid, U.S. officials looked the other way. Many across the West remained blinded by the “saltwater fallacy,” which posits that colonies can be held only in distant, overseas territories. Instead of viewing places such as Chechnya as nations colonized by a dictatorship in Moscow, Western officials simply saw them as extensions of Russia proper. So rather than recognize the Chechens’ struggle as part of the global push toward decolonization, American President Bill Clinton compared them to the Confederacy and backed Yeltsin despite his brutality. Clinton’s position not only effectively sanctioned the horrors unleashed on innocent Chechens, but it showed Putin, then a rising bureaucrat, that Russian force would go unchallenged by the West. As former Russian Prime Minister Yegor Gaidar said, Western pressure could have prevented the violence in Chechnya. Analysts agree. Yet Washington twiddled its thumbs, and Grozny was flattened.

Chechnya’s story is one of many. Nation after nation—Karelia, Komi, Sakha, Bashkortostan, Chuvashia, Kalmykia, Udmurtia, and many more—claimed sovereignty as the Soviet empire crumbled around them. Even regions that had been colonized by the Kremlin for centuries pushed for independence. In a 1992 referendum in Tatarstan, nearly two-thirds of the population voted in favor of sovereignty, even though Soviet authorities had drawn the republic’s borders to exclude some 75 percent of the Tatar population. As election observers wrote, the republic was motivated by “years of pent-up resentment” against Russian colonialism, and saw “huge support” for the referendum in ethnically Tatar regions."


Here he's doing apologia for literal terrorists. I thought the republicans were the guys who liked aiding terrorists! Furthermore, he's going off about how these places which have either had no independent existence of their own ever before or last did before the United States even existed are real countries which deserve recognition. Note how he provides no actual arguments about Russian colonialism, only liberal phrase mongering.

...
"Russia is not the only polyglot nation that has failed to address its legacy of colonization. China currently oversees the largest concentration-camp system the world has seen since the Holocaust, dedicated to eliminating Uyghurs as a distinct nation. And much of the U.S. still refuses to view its own history as one of rote imperial conquest, from the Founding Fathers seizing Indigenous lands to the ongoing colonial status of places such as Puerto Rico."


Liberal language again weaponized against an enemy of the United States. It is interesting how he uses the same argument against his own state here, which I think is more of an attack on the remaining institutions of the American Republic than a real criticism of any historical crimes. A lot of these people obsessed with indigenous sovereignty that use similar language (such as the LandBack foundation funded by Jeff Bezos) are basically in favor of privatizing all land and dissolving whatever remains of American republican institutions because Native Americans were massacred by the expanding American state more than a hundred and fifty years ago.

...
"Decolonizing Russia wouldn’t necessarily require fully dismantling it, as Cheney proposed. The push toward decolonization could instead focus on making the kind of democratic federalism promised in Russia’s constitution more than a hollow promise. This would mean ensuring that all Russian citizens, regardless of region, would finally be given a voice in choosing their leaders. Even simply acknowledging Russia’s colonial past—and present—would make some difference. “As much as decolonizing Russia is important for the territories it formerly occupied, reprocessing its history is also key for the survival of Russia within its current boundaries,” the scholars Botakoz Kassymbekova and Erica Marat recently wrote."


Here is the disclaimer that "actually i am not calling for total war against Russia". He knows what he is saying, and includes this to try and discourage claims against him I think. In practice what "decolonization" he wants either amounts to the total destruction of Russia or the control of it by western funded NGOs who will try to use minorities as a weapon against an independent Russia.

The crusader mentality is everywhere. Change some of the language and I think this could be written by a neocon. It comes from public intellectuals, from the US government, and even from users on this website. I think that this mentality and the institutions that propagate it are bound to be defeated because they're fundamentally alien to the people they claim to want to enslave in the name of liberation. Stirring up ethnic problems will not work in states like Russia or China because both of them have had their core territories for hundreds of years and even the Siberian peoples will serve in Russia's Army and call themselves Russians even if they aren't ethnic Russians, just like the Uygurs see themselves as Chinese even if they aren't Han Chinese.

Your thoughts, NSG?
Last edited by Orostan on Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Veraguas
Envoy
 
Posts: 283
Founded: Aug 07, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Veraguas » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:52 pm

The Russian REGIME must be completely destroyed. The Russian PEOPLE, definitely not.
He/Him

This nation does not reflect my real-life views.

I do not use NS stats.
Republic of Veraguas (República de Veraguas)
RP population: 2,476,540
Capital (and largest city): San Pablo
Head of state and head of government: President Julio César Montez Montealegre
Government type: Republic
Land area: 105,870 km²
Official language: Spanish
Literacy rate: 56% (est.)
Ethnic makeup: 49% mestizo, 25% Amerindian, 13% white, 5% black, 2% Asian, 6% other
Religious makeup: 80% Roman Catholic, 20% Protestant (mostly Evangelical) and other
Per capita income: 1,080 USD (est.)
Major industries: Tourism, coffee, bananas, sugar, cotton, beef
Establish an embassy in Veraguas today!
Constitution of Veraguas

User avatar
BADADADADAD
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Sep 08, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby BADADADADAD » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:53 pm

Veraguas wrote:The Russian REGIME must be completely destroyed. The Russian PEOPLE, definitely not.

Agreed.

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:54 pm

Veraguas wrote:The Russian REGIME must be completely destroyed. The Russian PEOPLE, definitely not.

There is no difference if the people support the "regime". A war against a government the people support or prefer to the alternatives is a war against the people. This is why the United States had to fight such genocidal campaigns in Vietnam, Korea, and innumerable other states around the world.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Frisemark
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 192
Founded: Aug 07, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Frisemark » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:57 pm

Orostan wrote:the "Crusader mentality" of liberalism today where Russia is identified as an enemy which not only must be defeated, but must be totally destroyed. A "Crusader Mentality" is what Neoconservatives had in the lead up to the Iraq war, and I would say is characterized by the need of the person who is afflicted by it to push their values on other countries and peoples and if they refuse those values (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc.) to destroy them


good

some ideologies should not be tolerated in civilized society. authoritarianism key among them.
The Kingdom of Frisemark
"From this day forward, I shall take up all the empire in my embrace. For I am father of the empire, as I am father to all creation. I will suffer no tired institution nor petty bureaucrat to stand between me and my children. I am the perfect loving god, and all will tremble to know me."
Denmark and the Netherlands had a kid, and it loves the color blue.
This nation is largely for me to autofellate many of my personal views.

Clinton Foundation deep cover agent and George Soros' loyal Jewish Space Laser operator. IRS Supersoldier. Card carrying DNC member.

Book List

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:59 pm

Frisemark wrote:
Orostan wrote:the "Crusader mentality" of liberalism today where Russia is identified as an enemy which not only must be defeated, but must be totally destroyed. A "Crusader Mentality" is what Neoconservatives had in the lead up to the Iraq war, and I would say is characterized by the need of the person who is afflicted by it to push their values on other countries and peoples and if they refuse those values (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc.) to destroy them


good

some ideologies should not be tolerated in civilized society. authoritarianism key among them.

That is very authoritarian of you. Do you think people should be killed if they support “authoritarianism”? If not, what should be done to them?
Last edited by Orostan on Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Necroghastia
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12762
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:23 pm

No one is talking about wiping Russia off the map, and it remains rich as hell for a Putin stan to whine about imperialism, warmongering, and genocide.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:24 pm

Necroghastia wrote:No one is talking about wiping Russia off the map, and it remains rich as hell for a Putin stan to whine about imperialism, warmongering, and genocide.

I cited US government officials talking about wiping Russia out exactly. They could or be more blatant.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Necroghastia
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12762
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:26 pm

Orostan wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:No one is talking about wiping Russia off the map, and it remains rich as hell for a Putin stan to whine about imperialism, warmongering, and genocide.

I cited US government officials talking about wiping Russia out exactly. They could or be more blatant.

Oh? I wasn't aware Dick Cheney was still in office.

And again, you have no right to act indignant over this when you condone it so utterly with Ukraine.
Last edited by Necroghastia on Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:28 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Orostan wrote:I cited US government officials talking about wiping Russia out exactly. They could or be more blatant.

Oh? I wasn't aware Dick Cheney was still in office.

And again, you have no right to act indignant over this when you condone it so utterly with Ukraine.

Did you read the OP or did you come here to repeat nonsense I already proved you wrong on?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Necroghastia
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12762
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:29 pm

Orostan wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Oh? I wasn't aware Dick Cheney was still in office.

And again, you have no right to act indignant over this when you condone it so utterly with Ukraine.

Did you read the OP or did you come here to repeat nonsense I already proved you wrong on?

I mean, the latter is a total impossibility, as you have never once proved me wrong on said topics. So that leaves one possibility, no?
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Galactic Powers
Diplomat
 
Posts: 505
Founded: Mar 29, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Galactic Powers » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:29 pm

Was it Germanophobic to destroy the Nazi Reich? Destroying a corrupt regime does not entail an attack on the people itself. This claim is utterly absurd, since to the perspective of the American liberal, dismantling foreign regimes to put up liberal democratic republics in their place helps the population. The 100s of thousands leaving Russia certainly don't help your claim that the "people they want to enslave" hate liberalism.

But you claimed that Uyghurs see themselves as Chinese...so there might be a fundamental disconnect here.
Some OOC things. Dominioan’s new nation - Est. Dec 9, 2019
Boomer Sooner, Chop On.
^ Here's what those mean ^
Founder and King of the former Bluecrown Keep
Canons: Dominioan (IOC RP) - Dominioan (Personal) - 1AP Dominioan

User avatar
United States Reborn
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 386
Founded: Mar 05, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby United States Reborn » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:41 pm

Neoconservatism needs to be destroyed.

I'm a believer in American exceptionalism, but only in terms of Christian European American culture - not in terms of trying to bind the world to the western neoliberal will.
Last edited by United States Reborn on Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Better to force morality on others than have immorality forced upon me

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:41 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Orostan wrote:Did you read the OP or did you come here to repeat nonsense I already proved you wrong on?

I mean, the latter is a total impossibility, as you have never once proved me wrong on said topics. So that leaves one possibility, no?

I give you evidence of what I believe and you simply deny it. You don’t argue in a reasonable way.

Galactic Powers wrote:Was it Germanophobic to destroy the Nazi Reich? Destroying a corrupt regime does not entail an attack on the people itself. This claim is utterly absurd, since to the perspective of the American liberal, dismantling foreign regimes to put up liberal democratic republics in their place helps the population. The 100s of thousands leaving Russia certainly don't help your claim that the "people they want to enslave" hate liberalism.

But you claimed that Uyghurs see themselves as Chinese...so there might be a fundamental disconnect here.

Would it be Germanophobic to support creating independent states out of two thirds of Germany with no basis in reality? The point is not what the American liberal thinks, it is what the American liberal does. I am arguing liberals are developing a crusader mentality to impose their values on other people.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Necroghastia
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12762
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:43 pm

Orostan wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:I mean, the latter is a total impossibility, as you have never once proved me wrong on said topics. So that leaves one possibility, no?

I give you evidence of what I believe and you simply deny it. You don’t argue in a reasonable way.

Is it not reasonable to deny evidence that has no basis in reality?
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
United States Reborn
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 386
Founded: Mar 05, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby United States Reborn » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:46 pm

There's no point in trying to argue this on NSG. People genuinely believe that Russia invaded for literally no reason other than to be deliberately evil.
Better to force morality on others than have immorality forced upon me

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:47 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Orostan wrote:I give you evidence of what I believe and you simply deny it. You don’t argue in a reasonable way.

Is it not reasonable to deny evidence that has no basis in reality?

It’s unreasonable to simply assert that rather than provide a counter. In the past I’ve claimed that there was a diplomatic effort before the war where Russia tried to avoid an invasion, and that the war has its roots in the 2014 coup. You think it just happened one day, or something.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6745
Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:49 pm

United States Reborn wrote:There's no point in trying to argue this on NSG. People genuinely believe that Russia invaded for literally no reason other than to be deliberately evil.

I made this thread partially because I want to confront those people with the destructive ideas of their thought leaders. I think it will create an interesting response.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
Z

User avatar
Necroghastia
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12762
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:49 pm

United States Reborn wrote:There's no point in trying to argue this on NSG. People genuinely believe that Russia invaded for literally no reason other than to be deliberately evil.

Again, a blatant falsehood. Just because most people here can see through the "doing an imperialism and genocide for muh self-defense" bull, doesn't mean we think they're doing it just for the evulz. A hunger for power and naked imperialism, sure. But that's different from a cartoon villain.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Necroghastia
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12762
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:50 pm

Orostan wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Is it not reasonable to deny evidence that has no basis in reality?

It’s unreasonable to simply assert that rather than provide a counter. In the past I’ve claimed that there was a diplomatic effort before the war where Russia tried to avoid an invasion, and that the war has its roots in the 2014 coup. You think it just happened one day, or something.

If you can show me where I said that, I would be much obliged.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54796
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:51 pm

The State Department and the US government in general are not a force for good in the world. Russia is also not a force for good in the world. Neither is worth supporting.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

User avatar
United States Reborn
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 386
Founded: Mar 05, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby United States Reborn » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:53 pm

Orostan wrote:
United States Reborn wrote:There's no point in trying to argue this on NSG. People genuinely believe that Russia invaded for literally no reason other than to be deliberately evil.

I made this thread partially because I want to confront those people with the destructive ideas of their thought leaders. I think it will create an interesting response.

It won't, it's always the same.

"but it's like hitler"

"but there's a genocide"

"but it's like nazi germany"

"but western promises weren't really promises"

"every single precedent set is a whataboutism"

Necroghastia wrote:
United States Reborn wrote:There's no point in trying to argue this on NSG. People genuinely believe that Russia invaded for literally no reason other than to be deliberately evil.

Again, a blatant falsehood. Just because most people here can see through the "doing an imperialism and genocide for muh self-defense" bull, doesn't mean we think they're doing it just for the evulz. A hunger for power and naked imperialism, sure. But that's different from a cartoon villain.

Well exactly, that's what I'm referring to.

There's not even a single thought that even considers whether or not that western foreign policy may have caused this.
Better to force morality on others than have immorality forced upon me

User avatar
Necroghastia
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12762
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:55 pm

United States Reborn wrote:
Orostan wrote:I made this thread partially because I want to confront those people with the destructive ideas of their thought leaders. I think it will create an interesting response.

It won't, it's always the same.

"but it's like hitler"

"but there's a genocide"

"but it's like nazi germany"

"but western promises weren't really promises"

"every single precedent set is a whataboutism"

Necroghastia wrote:Again, a blatant falsehood. Just because most people here can see through the "doing an imperialism and genocide for muh self-defense" bull, doesn't mean we think they're doing it just for the evulz. A hunger for power and naked imperialism, sure. But that's different from a cartoon villain.

Well exactly, that's what I'm referring to.

There's not even a single thought that even considers whether or not that western foreign policy may have caused this.

It's not like there's been over a year to consider that and be able to reject it as the bullshit excuse it is.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54796
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:57 pm

United States Reborn wrote:There's not even a single thought that even considers whether or not that western foreign policy may have caused this.


Because it just objectively didn't, anyone who thinks it did was not actively following the situation over the past several years. The US and Ukraine itself were willing to accept a full legal status of Finlandization for Ukraine and even tacit (albeit not official) recognition of Russian ownership of Crimea and the Donbas. We gave Russia every available off ramp possible and were willing to agree to almost any demand except the annexation or abolition of Ukraine as a whole. Putin is the one who sent his military across the border in spite of this, no matter how much nonsense propaganda you push these facts will not change.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

User avatar
United States Reborn
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 386
Founded: Mar 05, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby United States Reborn » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:58 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
United States Reborn wrote:There's not even a single thought that even considers whether or not that western foreign policy may have caused this.


Because it just objectively didn't, anyone who thinks it did was not actively following the situation over the past several years. The US and Ukraine itself were willing to accept a full legal status of Finlandization for Ukraine and even tacit (albeit not official) recognition of Russian ownership of Crimea and the Donbas. We gave Russia every available off ramp possible and were willing to agree to almost any demand except the annexation or abolition of Ukraine as a whole. Putin is the one who sent his military across the border in spite of this, no matter how much nonsense propaganda you push these facts will not change.

So, you think Putin is crazy for not trusting the west?
Better to force morality on others than have immorality forced upon me

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Almonaster Nuevo, Ancientania, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Barinive, Cyptopir, Kostane, Ors Might, Plan Neonie, The H Corporation, Tiami, Tungstan, Zantalio

Advertisement

Remove ads